Life after death?

I suppose i dont know what i believe. I am not religious and i dont believe in heaven and hell. I do believe there must be something. I suppose for me it has to do with how 'man' has come about. So many unanswered questions. Who created man, the earth, the universe..where does it all end? begin? I feel frustrated that there are no answers. If the tiniest creature on earth hasnt the capacity to understand the things man has...is there something superior that has greater understanding to us? Or are we a molecule inside a larger creature? Who knows! Its all very annoying!!!
 
I have a bit of a skewed view of reincarnation. If there's an infinite amount of time ahead of us, I completely believe there is every chance that I can feel sensation and life just as randomly as it's happened this time round. Dying is just the start of an unimaginably long recycle.
 
I just lost my youngest brother three weeks ago, so I have been thinking about this a lot. I do not follow any religion, but I do take comfort in the science. I wanted to share a piece that we read at my brother's service. I adapted it slightly to reflect my brother (the original piece referred to a spouse and he did not have a partner), but it's easy to find online.

You want a physicist to speak at your funeral.
You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died.
You want the physicist to remind your mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world.
You want the physicist to tell your father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.
And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted friends and tell them that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you.
And as your family holds each other in sorrow, may the physicist let them know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are their eyes, that those photons created within them constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.
And the physicist will remind the gathering of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.
And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy's still around.
According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone; you're just less orderly. Amen.

Adapted from a piece by Aaron Freeman.
This really sums up my beliefs, I think.

Thank you for sharing. The law of conservation of energy definitely led me more to the idea of reincarnation (in the loose sense) as opposed to 'nothing'. A very lovely piece and I'm sorry about your brother :hugs:
 
Eek I don't like the sound of reincarnation but it does seem the likest thing to happen, or it's a state of mind like a dream.
But I so hope there is a heaven as in a place, same reason as pp. I cling on to hope I can be with my baby again x
 
I've lost my father in the last few years so I like to believe his spirit's around somewhere, I don't know exactly how but I guess it's just a comforting thought.

I believe in reincarnation because of something that actually happened to me. There was a lady at work who was very private, a lot of people thought she was strange, she'd worked there for years but nobody knew anything at all of her personal life. I got on with her really well and we used to always stop and have a chat when we met in the toilets.

She went off work on long term sick and was off for about a year, no one had a clue what was wrong with her. One night I had a dream, I was on the loo at work having a wee (ha ha) and when I opened the cubicle door she came floating into the bathroom, expressionless and kind of fuzzy around the edges, and she handed me a naked baby boy, he was screaming and he had a thick head of brown hair. It really spooked me this dream, it was so vivid and I remembered every bit of it. I told my colleagues at work and my husband and it just really stuck in my mind.

4 days later we were called into a meeting room at work and told she had passed away, and she'd actually passed away the night I had the dream. 2 weeks later I found out I was pregnant, and yes it turned out to be a boy with a thick head of brown hair!

It's so hard to believe that if I'd not have told people about the dream before we all found out she had died (or was even terminally ill, as we weren't aware) I don't think anyone would have believed me. But they were all as spooked as I was, the first thing my colleagues said to me was how strange it was that I'd had that dream about her.

Sorry for the essay, but for me that experience really means something, she left life and I honestly believe she gave me the gift of my son. Maybe she lives on in him? I don't know.
 
I've lost my father in the last few years so I like to believe his spirit's around somewhere, I don't know exactly how but I guess it's just a comforting thought.

I believe in reincarnation because of something that actually happened to me. There was a lady at work who was very private, a lot of people thought she was strange, she'd worked there for years but nobody knew anything at all of her personal life. I got on with her really well and we used to always stop and have a chat when we met in the toilets.

She went off work on long term sick and was off for about a year, no one had a clue what was wrong with her. One night I had a dream, I was on the loo at work having a wee (ha ha) and when I opened the cubicle door she came floating into the bathroom, expressionless and kind of fuzzy around the edges, and she handed me a naked baby boy, he was screaming and he had a thick head of brown hair. It really spooked me this dream, it was so vivid and I remembered every bit of it. I told my colleagues at work and my husband and it just really stuck in my mind.

4 days later we were called into a meeting room at work and told she had passed away, and she'd actually passed away the night I had the dream. 2 weeks later I found out I was pregnant, and yes it turned out to be a boy with a thick head of brown hair!

It's so hard to believe that if I'd not have told people about the dream before we all found out she had died (or was even terminally ill, as we weren't aware) I don't think anyone would have believed me. But they were all as spooked as I was, the first thing my colleagues said to me was how strange it was that I'd had that dream about her.

Sorry for the essay, but for me that experience really means something, she left life and I honestly believe she gave me the gift of my son. Maybe she lives on in him? I don't know.
Amazing story! I love things like this :)
 
I am a Christian. The Bible teaches that we have everlasting souls that will either spend eternity in heaven or hell. I believe that as sinners who have broken God's laws, we all deserve to go to hell. Jesus died to take the punishment for our sins, so those who believe and repent will go to heaven. At the second coming of Christ, our bodies will be raised to join our souls in eternity.
 
I believe the same as those who've mentioned about the energy from your body being 'released' and altered somehow when you die. I don't believe we really live on after death, but I do believe that in a way the energy in our bodies is kind of 'recycled' from the energy from people who came before us.
 
I am a Christian. The Bible teaches that we have everlasting souls that will either spend eternity in heaven or hell. I believe that as sinners who have broken God's laws, we all deserve to go to hell. Jesus died to take the punishment for our sins, so those who believe and repent will go to heaven. At the second coming of Christ, our bodies will be raised to join our souls in eternity.

I find this view interesting as this contradicts much of the bible (no offence intended I just find it interesting to discuss)

The bible says at Ezekial 18:4 that the soul itself will die so cant be eternal, Acts 3:23 says the soul can be destroyed so I dont believe we have souls but we are souls (living souls) and our spirit is our life force or personality (who we are)

Nowhere does it say that that all good people go to heaven. It mentions that some will but have a specific role to fulfill. In revelation it says that they will rule as kings with Jesus so will make up the government that will rule over the earth. It even gives a specific number. It mentions that some faithful ones ( john and King David) didnt go to heaven. So its only for specific ones.

Its the earth that was made for us to live on and enjoy. Gods original purpose was for humans to live on a paradise earth forever and fill it. And that his purpose will still be fulfilled. Psalms 37:9, 11 and 29 says that the meek will posess the earth and reside on it forever. The same chapter mentions that wicked ones will be removed and there will real peace under that heavenly government. (Daniel 2:44)

There are several verses that speak of the dead not being conscious of anything, having no thought or as Jesus said Lazarus was "sleeping" but he had died.

I dont believe the bible teaches that hell is a literal place either but just the grave. Revelation says that death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire too, so clearly is a symbol of eternal destruction. Theres many other scriptures to support that view. The only thing that makes sense of the topic of hell is that the fire is symbolic to represent eternal destruction as thats what fire does, its destroys so that nothing remains.

I really find it hard to comprehend that people believe that God would torture people forever.

Romans 6:7 says that he who has died has been acquitted from his sins - so death itself is the punishment. If the fires of hell were literal then why would the bible say that. Its a complete contradiction and makes so sense.

Its a deep subject so ill leave it there but if you leave pre conceived ideas or church teachings behind and let the bible guide your thinking it all just falls into place and harmonises

ETA Hope I havent offended I love bible discussions and respect others views so as a Christian im sure u love discussing the subject too :)
 
If deaths the punishment why do babies and children die? They haven't done anything bad? :( x
 
If deaths the punishment why do babies and children die? They haven't done anything bad? :( x

God doesnt cause people to die right now to punish them. We die because of our imperfect bodies, or unforseen occurances such as accidents etc. He is not causing these things. But he will remove death forever according to the bible and restore humans to that perfect state.

Eternal death is the punishment for the truly wicked / bad people - as in there is no hope of a Resurrection to a paradise earth in the future for them.

Does that make sense? :)
 
I believe that when you are dead that's it. I don't believe in heaven or reincarnation or anything. My mum died nearly two years ago and I would love to believe that I will see her again in an afterlife but I just don't believe it.
 
If deaths the punishment why do babies and children die? They haven't done anything bad? :( x

God doesnt cause people to die right now to punish them. We die because of our imperfect bodies, or unforseen occurances such as accidents etc. He is not causing these things. But he will remove death forever according to the bible and restore humans to that perfect state.

Eternal death is the punishment for the truly wicked / bad people - as in there is no hope of a Resurrection to a paradise earth in the future for them.

Does that make sense? :)

Yes I think so :) x
 
I believe that when you are dead that's it. I don't believe in heaven or reincarnation or anything. My mum died nearly two years ago and I would love to believe that I will see her again in an afterlife but I just don't believe it.

I hate thinking this could be it and we will never see loved ones again x
 
I am a Christian. The Bible teaches that we have everlasting souls that will either spend eternity in heaven or hell. I believe that as sinners who have broken God's laws, we all deserve to go to hell. Jesus died to take the punishment for our sins, so those who believe and repent will go to heaven. At the second coming of Christ, our bodies will be raised to join our souls in eternity.

I find this view interesting as this contradicts much of the bible (no offence intended I just find it interesting to discuss)

The bible says at Ezekial 18:4 that the soul itself will die so cant be eternal, Acts 3:23 says the soul can be destroyed so I dont believe we have souls but we are souls (living souls) and our spirit is our life force or personality (who we are)

The Hebrew word "nephesh" used in Ezekiel 18:4 and the Greek word "psuche" used in Acts 3:23 both mean "living being" or "person", so there is no contradiction there. Matthew 10:28 says "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell", which clearly shows that the soul can survive after our physical bodies are dead. The transfiguration and the parable of Lazarus also demonstrate that the dead have living souls.

Nowhere does it say that that all good people go to heaven. It mentions that some will but have a specific role to fulfill. In revelation it says that they will rule as kings with Jesus so will make up the government that will rule over the earth. It even gives a specific number. It mentions that some faithful ones ( john and King David) didnt go to heaven. So its only for specific ones.

Nor did I say that all good people go to heaven. The Bible teaches that salvation is a gift of God and has nothing to do with good works or our own righteousness. Regarding the number, Revelations is a highly symbolic book and many of the passages are not intended to be interpreted literally. If the 144,000 was taken literally, they would all have to be Jewish male virgins! Revelations 7:9 speaks of "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" and Jesus consistently taught that salvation is available to all who believe, not just a selected few.

Its the earth that was made for us to live on and enjoy. Gods original purpose was for humans to live on a paradise earth forever and fill it. And that his purpose will still be fulfilled. Psalms 37:9, 11 and 29 says that the meek will posess the earth and reside on it forever. The same chapter mentions that wicked ones will be removed and there will real peace under that heavenly government. (Daniel 2:44)

The Hebrew word "olam" used in Psalm 37 is usually used to indicate a long period of time, rather than literally "forever", and verse 29 is probably a reference to God's covenant with Abraham anyway. There are dozens of verses in the Bible which teach that the earth will be destroyed (Psalm 102:25-26, Isaiah 51:6, Matthew 5:18, 24:35, Hebrews 1:10-12, 2 Peter 3:7-12). Rather than taking a single verse out of context, read the whole of Daniel 2. The prophesy refers to the Babylonian, Persian, Greecian and Roman empires and the spiritual kingdom of God, which is frequently referred to in the New Testament.

There are several verses that speak of the dead not being conscious of anything, having no thought or as Jesus said Lazarus was "sleeping" but he had died.

The Bible often uses "sleep" to describe death, but always referring to the physical body and never the soul. For example, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describes how Christ will return with the souls of those who are asleep (dead) and then their bodies will be raised.

I dont believe the bible teaches that hell is a literal place either but just the grave. Revelation says that death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire too, so clearly is a symbol of eternal destruction. Theres many other scriptures to support that view. The only thing that makes sense of the topic of hell is that the fire is symbolic to represent eternal destruction as thats what fire does, its destroys so that nothing remains.

The Greek word "sheol" and the Hebrew word "hades" are sometimes translated as "grave", but the context indicates that it is a literal place. For example, in Matthew 23:33 Jesus talks about "escaping the damnation of hell", which wouldn't make sense if hell was merely the grave. See also Psalm 9:17, 139:8, Isaiah 5:14, Mark 9:45-46, Luke 12:5, 16:23. Regarding the lake of fire, 2 Peter 2:4 and Revelations 20:13-15 explain that hell is where the unsaved go until the final judgement, after which they will be cast into the lake of fire.

I really find it hard to comprehend that people believe that God would torture people forever.

The Bible teaches that God is holy, righteous and just. He cannot allow sin into heaven and all sin must be punished, either through the atoning death of Christ or by eternal death in hell.

Romans 6:7 says that he who has died has been acquitted from his sins - so death itself is the punishment. If the fires of hell were literal then why would the bible say that. Its a complete contradiction and makes so sense.

Again, Romans 6:7 needs to be understood in context. Paul is saying that when we are dead we will be free from the temptations of sin.

Its a deep subject so ill leave it there but if you leave pre conceived ideas or church teachings behind and let the bible guide your thinking it all just falls into place and harmonises

ETA Hope I havent offended I love bible discussions and respect others views so as a Christian im sure u love discussing the subject too :)

I must admit I find it confusing that Jehovah's Witnesses call themselves Christians (although not so much here in the UK) and yet reject almost every major Christian doctrine.
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I believe upon death our souls are separated from our bodies which will then decompose. The soul, however, is immortal and will never cease to exist. Once we have died, our souls are judged by The Lord either to Heaven or Hell. When The Lord chooses to end the world, there will be a final judgement in which all of the remaining souls and angels willl be reunited with our bodies and continue to live or join in Heaven or Hell. I believe Heaven is the most incredible of places where we can be with all of our loved ones.

I am Roman Catholic.
 
I believe upon death our souls are separated from our bodies which will then decompose. The soul, however, is immortal and will never cease to exist. Once we have died, our souls are judged by The Lord either to Heaven or Hell. When The Lord chooses to end the world, there will be a final judgement in which all of the remaining souls and angels willl be reunited with our bodies and continue to live or join in Heaven or Hell. I believe Heaven is the most incredible of places where we can be with all of our loved ones.

I am Roman Catholic.

I really hope heaven is a place with our loved ones but how would everyone fit in? :blush:
Also you say our bodies decompose but we are reunited with them? X
 
I believe upon death our souls are separated from our bodies which will then decompose. The soul, however, is immortal and will never cease to exist. Once we have died, our souls are judged by The Lord either to Heaven or Hell. When The Lord chooses to end the world, there will be a final judgement in which all of the remaining souls and angels willl be reunited with our bodies and continue to live or join in Heaven or Hell. I believe Heaven is the most incredible of places where we can be with all of our loved ones.

I am Roman Catholic.

I really hope heaven is a place with our loved ones but how would everyone fit in? :blush:
Also you say our bodies decompose but we are reunited with them? X

I think it's larger than anything we've ever known. When we rejoin with our bodies, we become whole and new again. Does that make sense? Haha.
 
The Hebrew word "nephesh" used in Ezekiel 18:4 and the Greek word "psuche" used in Acts 3:23 both mean "living being" or "person", so there is no contradiction there. Matthew 10:28 says "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell", which clearly shows that the soul can survive after our physical bodies are dead. The transfiguration and the parable of Lazarus also demonstrate that the dead have living souls.

Actually the original word at Matthew 10:28 was "Gehenna" Not hell. Im sure you are aware that Gehenna was a literal place outside of Jerusalem so those Jesus was speaking to could relate. Gehenna was NOT a place of conscious torment. The dead bodies of criminals and animals were put there.

The meaning is this: We need not be in dread of Satan or his human agents. Even tho some may have the power to cause harm, even death. However, the worst they can do is still only temporary. God can and will undo any damage done to his faithful servants, even resurrecting them. It is God alone who is worthy of our fear, our profound awe and respect. He alone has the power to take away life and all prospects for future life, destroying both body and soul in Gehenna - meaning eternal death without hope of a Resurrection.

Churches generally teach that the human soul is spirit, that it leaves the body at death, and that it is immortal. In contrast, older Bible translations in most languages clearly state that humans are souls, that animals are souls, and that the soul dies. (Genesis 12:5; 36:6; Numbers 31:28; James 5:20)

Now some newer versions obscure these truths. How? They simply avoid a direct translation of the Hebrew noun ne′phesh (soul) in certain texts. At Genesis 2:7, they may say that the first man “began to live” (instead of “came to be a living soul”). Or they may refer to “creature” instead of “soul” in the case of animal life. (Genesis 1:21) In such texts as Ezekiel 18:4, 20, they refer to “the person” or “the individual” (rather than “the soul”) as dying. Such renderings are, perhaps, justifiable to the translator.

Nor did I say that all good people go to heaven. The Bible teaches that salvation is a gift of God and has nothing to do with good works or our own righteousness.

Jesus put it this way; “By their fruits you will know them” (His true followers) Matthew 7:16-23 – this scripture goes onto to speak about the workers of lawlessness who clearly have faith in Jesus and believe but by their fruits (works) they disown him and he told them to get away from him. Demonstrating how simply faith alone is not enough, it has to move us to produce fine fruits

We are NOT saved by our own works, but rather by imitating Jesus as best we can and obeying his commandments. By our works that are produced is how we will be judged.

Titus 1:16 – “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.”

James 2:26 – “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”


James 1:22 – “ But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”

James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God, but instead he is making it clear that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation.

1 Peter 2:21 – “For even here unto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps”

Works are proof of our faith, our faith requires action on our part in order to be able “follow christs steps closely”. Jesus main objective while on earth was his ministry, to preach about Gods kingdom, and of course to give his life as a ransom sacrifice and redeem us from sin and death. His followers were commanded by Jesus himself “to make disciples” (Matthew 28:19) and that’s exactly what the first century Christian congregations and his apostles did after his death, they preached to others about Jesus and Gods kingdom, from house to house (Acts 5:42, Acts 20:20) and town to town. So that is one way we prove our faith by our works. By actively preaching to others

Matthew 24:14 – “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” How would that prophecy be fulfilled if followers weren’t required to act on their faith and prove it by these works?

John 15:10 - “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” – clearly to be saved we not only have to have total faith in christ but also obey his commands (which are our works)


Regarding the number, Revelations is a highly symbolic book and many of the passages are not intended to be interpreted literally. If the 144,000 was taken literally, they would all have to be Jewish male virgins! Revelations 7:9 speaks of "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" and Jesus consistently taught that salvation is available to all who believe, not just a selected few.

Of course Revelation is highly symbolic but, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”

There is no limit to those who will enjoy life on a paradise earth. Jehovahs witnesses dont believe they are the only ones that will be saved, even those who have never come to know God will be given a chance as John 5:28,29 says that there is a "Resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous"

In reference to only being Jewish male virgins, we know this cannot be literal - for example: Rev. 7:4-8: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: Judah . Reuben .. Gad .. Asher . Naphtali . Manasseh .. Simeon .. Levi . Issachar .. Zebulun .Joseph .. Benjamin.” (These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16.)

Rom. 2:28,29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”

Gal. 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. .. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”


The Hebrew word "olam" used in Psalm 37 is usually used to indicate a long period of time, rather than literally "forever", and verse 29 is probably a reference to God's covenant with Abraham anyway. There are dozens of verses in the Bible which teach that the earth will be destroyed (Psalm 102:25-26, Isaiah 51:6, Matthew 5:18, 24:35, Hebrews 1:10-12, 2 Peter 3:7-12).

In an effort to support their belief that all good people go to heaven, translators—or theologians who review their work—may also endeavor to conceal what the Bible says about God’s purpose for the earth. At Psalm 37:11, a number of versions read that the humble will possess “the land.” “Land” is a possible rendering of the word (ʼe′rets) used in the Hebrew text. However, Today’s English Version (which has provided the basis for translations into many other languages) goes further. Although this version renders the Greek word ge as “earth” 17 times in the Gospel of Matthew, at Matthew 5:5 it replaces “earth” with the phrase “what God has promised.” Church members naturally think of heaven. They are not honestly being informed that, in his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus Christ said that the mild-tempered, meek, or humble ones will “inherit the earth.”

And i wasnt just refering to verse 29. Verses 9-11 " For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

What about the verses that say the earth will never be destroyed and remain forever? Could it be that the word earth doesnt always mean the literal planet? The term “earth” is used in more than one sense in the Scriptures. . It may also may be used in a figurative sense, referring, for example, to people living on this planet or to a human society that has certain characteristics.


What does the Bible show to be God’s purpose regarding the earth? Matt. 6:10: “Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.”
Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”
Ecclesiastes 1:4
Psalm 104:5. King James Bible - "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever"

Does 2 Peter 3:7,10 and Revelation 21:1 indicate God himself destroy the earth by fire?

the explanation of these verses must agree with the context and with the rest of the Bible. If these texts (2Peter 3:7,10 and Revelation 21:1) mean that the literal planet Earth is to be consumed by fire, then the literal heavens (the stars and other heavenly bodies) are also to be destroyed by fire.

Such a literal view, however, conflicts with the assurance contained in such texts as Matthew 6:10, Psalm 37:29 and 104:5, also Proverbs 2:21,22. Furthermore, what effect would fire have on the already intensely hot sun and stars? So the term “earth” in the above-quoted texts must be understood in a different sense.

At Genesis 11:1, 1Kings 2:1, 2, 1 Chronicles 16:31, Psalm 96:1, etc., the term “earth” is used in a figurative sense, referring to mankind, to human society. Might that be the case at 2Peter 3:7,10 and Revelation 21:1?

Note that, in the context, at 2Peter 3:5,6 (also 2:5,9), a parallel is drawn with the Flood of Noah’s day, in which wicked human society was destroyed, but Noah and his household, as well as the globe itself, were preserved.

Likewise, at 2Peter 3:7 it says that the ones to be destroyed are “ungodly men.” The view that “the earth” here refers to wicked human society fully agrees with the rest of the Bible, as is illustrated by the texts cited above. It is that symbolic “earth,” or wicked human society, that is “discovered”; that is, God will sear away as by fire all disguise, exposing the wickedness of ungodly human society and showing it to be worthy of complete destruction. That wicked society of humans is also “the first earth,” referred to at Revelation 21:1

Consistently, Jesus’ expression at Luke 21:33 (“heaven and earth will pass away, but ...”) must be understood in the light of the parallel statement at Luke 16:17 (“it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than ....”), both of which simply emphasize the impossibility of the situations presented.—See also Matthew 5:18.


Rather than taking a single verse out of context, read the whole of Daniel 2. The prophesy refers to the Babylonian, Persian, Greecian and Roman empires and the spiritual kingdom of God, which is frequently referred to in the New Testament.

I know the whole chapter and prophecy well :)

The initial fulfillments of these two prophecies—one about the destruction of Babylon and the other pertaining to the succession of world powers—right up to our day, assure us that what remains to be fulfilled will happen on time. This will include the destruction of the prophetic dream image (world powers) by the interference of God’s Kingdom - a kingdom is a government.

Its a pretty deep subject but ill be brief.

The prophecy at Revelation 17:10 complements the prophecy found in the book of Daniel. Daniel wrote about an “immense image” that Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar saw in a vision given him by God. (Daniel 2:28, 31-43)

Daniel revealed to the monarch that the sections of the body of the image represented the succession of political empires that began with Babylon, the world power at the time. (Egypt and Assyria had already come and gone.) History now confirms the following:

The head of gold represented the Babylonian Empire.
The breasts and arms of silver depicted Medo-Persia.
The belly and thighs of copper pointed to ancient Greece.
The legs of iron pictured the Roman Empire.
The feet, an amalgam of iron and clay, symbolize the politically and socially incohesive state of affairs during the time of the Anglo-American world power.

According to Revelation 17:10, the seventh world power “must remain a short while.” (current world power)

Describing the image, Daniel wrote: “A stone was cut out of a mountain not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of molded clay and crushed them.” (Daniel 2:34)

Daniel continued: “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these (earthly) kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite.” - clealry this hasnt happened yet as world powers are still ruling.

(Daniel 2:44,45) Note these important points:

 1. The victorious Kingdom, represented by a large stone, is “set up” by God himself, not by human “hands.” Hence, it is rightly called God’s Kingdom.

 2. God’s Kingdom “will crush” all human rulerships, including the seventh world power because all these will refuse to relinquish power and will face off against God in a final great war at a figurative place called Har–Magedon, or Armageddon. The Bible makes clear that this war involves “the kings of the entire inhabited earth.”—Revelation 16:13, 14,16.

 3. Unlike transitory human governments, including the seven world powers, God’s Kingdom “will never be brought to ruin.” Also, it will rule over the entire earth.—Daniel 2:35,44.


The Bible often uses "sleep" to describe death, but always referring to the physical body and never the soul. For example, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describes how Christ will return with the souls of those who are asleep (dead) and then their bodies will be raised.

1Cor. 15:50: “I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

Physical bodies cannot go to heaven. This verse is speaking of the anointed (144,000) that will rule with him in heaven.

They are “caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air,” These are anointed Christians who are alive during Christ’s presence in Kingdom power. They “meet the Lord” Jesus in the invisible heavenly realm. To experience this, though, they first need to die and be resurrected as spirit creatures. (Rom. 6:3-5; 1Cor. 15:35,44) Christ’s presence has already begun, so anointed Christians who die today do not remain dead. They are “caught away,” or raised instantly.—1Cor. 15:51,52.

The Greek word "sheol" and the Hebrew word "hades" are sometimes translated as "grave", but the context indicates that it is a literal place. For example, in Matthew 23:33 Jesus talks about "escaping the damnation of hell", which wouldn't make sense if hell was merely the grave. See also Psalm 9:17, 139:8, Isaiah 5:14, Mark 9:45-46, Luke 12:5, 16:23. Regarding the lake of fire, 2 Peter 2:4 and Revelations 20:13-15 explain that hell is where the unsaved go until the final judgement, after which they will be cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 23:33 makes perfect sense that its just the grave. Eternal death isnt a pleasant prospect is it?

2 Peter 2:4 - ? Tartarus is a prisonlike condition to which only spirit creatures—not humans—are consigned. It is a state of dense mental darkness regarding God’s bright purposes. Those in Tartarus have no hope for the future. God threw the disobedient angels into Tartarus in Noah’s day, and they will remain in that abased condition until they are destroyed.

“Dense darkness” results from their being cut off from spiritual light by God as outcasts from his family. As those reserved for his adverse judgment, they have only a dark outlook. Tartarus is a precursor of the abyssing that Satan and his demons will experience before the start of Christ’s Thousand Year Reign. Their destruction will occur after Jesus’ Millennial Rule.—Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:1-3, 7-10,14.

Revelations 20:13-15 - Emptying “hell” (the grave) will mean restoring to life all those whom God judges worthy of a resurrection. (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15) The judgement period on earth will be 1000 years as indicated by Revelations


The Bible teaches that God is holy, righteous and just. He cannot allow sin into heaven and all sin must be punished, either through the atoning death of Christ or by eternal death in hell.

Eternal death in the grave yes - how is it etrnal death in the sense you believe it if they are still alive - feeling eternal tourment? They are not really dead then are they? Like i said the bible says several times that the "dead are conscious of nothing". Really then they are still receiving eternal life but just in a forever burning fire?

Again, Romans 6:7 needs to be understood in context. Paul is saying that when we are dead we will be free from the temptations of sin.

True because we are asleep knowing noithing but, have also paid the price. Romans 6:23 "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."


I must admit I find it confusing that Jehovah's Witnesses call themselves Christians (although not so much here in the UK) and yet reject almost every major Christian doctrine.

We are christians full stop. We only reject on a biblical basis what we believe are unbiblical teachings. We let the bible guide our thinking, cross reference a subject in all its occurrences in the scriptures. Im happy to answer / reason on any scripture.
 
Sorry op, by replying this has gone a bit off topic. Perhaps if anyone wishes to discuss anything further that doesnt relate to the ops original question, another thread could be started or feel free to PM me :)
 

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