Make Bradford British.... Ch4 1st March 9pm

[sophxx]

^^ I agree with what your saying I have some friends who are very religious and we meet at a national trust place with the children to play feed ducks ect we always get coffee and tge coffee shop has a bar they never make a issue out of it as were not drinking it there does gave to ve a bit if give and take in outmr world today.

As for suggestion for work night out round here we have kits of resurants sone indian done veggie ect where they don't hold a acholol license but they do have a option for people to bring there own I have lots of Muslim friends who go to places like that as it's a good compramise. X

 

[summer rain]

Maybe your colleague simply didn't like to socialise with colleagues outside of work hours? Some people don't and its nothing to do with religion. Again my mum and dad have never been keen on work 'dos' or going out with work colleagues; its just how they are. The one exception is my dad's friend from work he has known since the 70s but even then he just chats on the phone with him and they very rarely meet up in person. I think a lot of the whole social culture we have nowadays is a very recent phenomenon. I think a lot of pressure is put upon people to socialise outside of work these days and not everyone is comfortable with it. A lot of Muslim women I have met actually use their husband as an excuse just to avoid what they don't personally feel comfortable with; because if people assume their husband said no, then they tend to shut up about it lol as no-one wants to interfere in people's personal relationships.

When it comes to alcohol free places, a lot of Indian/Pakistani, Turkish and even some Mexican/Nandos type/Chinese restaurants in London don't serve alcohol, they aren't fast food either but really nice restaurants. I appreciate it isn't the same everywhere but when I lived up north there were a lot more places not serving alcohol than there are down here. There were a lot of decently priced alcohol free Arab food places in Manchester that simply don't exist here. I don't see how a once a week swimming gathering or an occasional work do that someone doesn't want to attend really is an issue? I am afraid in my experience it is Muslims who have the biggest expectation from society to bend in order to fit in and get accused of not integrating if they do stick to their principles on some issues or just don't do things they feel uncomfortable with. Its similar to the case that non-Muslim stay at home mums are praised; and the government talks of enabling more women to stay home with their kids but when it comes to Muslim women it must be they are staying home because they are being forced or don't want to integrate?! Maybe they want to stay home with their kids also?

A recent government survey found it was actually 'white' people who mix least with those of other cultures and deliberately stick to their own. Also it found most white people in the UK know no-one of any other colour, culture or religion at all. Most Asians and other ethnic minorities I know do mix with a lot of other cultures and religions and will often go out of their way to do so, it may not necessarily be in a pub or a friday night out but I don't see how there is anything wrong with that; at least they are mixing. xx

 

[smelly07]

My collegue definitely used her religion as her reason, she was also very open about the fact if her children married a white person she would disown them.
we were her 'collegues' not her friends.

i aware not all muslim people are like this as i knew many muslims who would still go bowling and pizza hut even though they sold alcohol they just didnt drink it and in my experience it doesnt seem to be a 1 for all rule, it very much depends on the family of what they can and cant do in regards to the way they view their religion and what is culturally exceptable.

Some people do use their religion as an excuse etc but some people religion really is the reason. some relgious people accomadate and some dont. some non religious people accomadate and some dont. its all swings and roundabouts.

On the work night out options:

none of us had children at that time so activities like feeding the ducks would just be weird for us to do
and indian resturants not everyone likes spicey food........ other resturants sell lots and lots of different dishes that suit all tastes and they do also sell alchol in them in my town anyway.

my experience of cultural intergration are different from yours, i definitely find the asian community both indian and muslim more likely to stick to their own and not mix with white people and want their children to stick to friends of their own race.

i am mixed race and was bought up seeing/viewing/living both sides of the coin. x

 

[Lightworker]

Re cultural integration and Asian families as a whole..I have noticed at playgroups..they tend to band together. Whenever there are other black moms at playgroup, I talk to them, but I am the person that revolves around the room, making sure I try and spend time with everyone.

Maybe its a case of being more comfortable "amongst your own" which is the opposite of what integrators are trying to encourage.

 

[smelly07]

yes i agree, even in school playgrounds i notice that.

Also having worked with children and parents for yonks, 90% of the asian parents (mothers) can not speak english or very little and this does not help with intergrating amongst others x

 

[summer rain]

My collegue definitely used her religion as her reason, she was also very open about the fact if her children married a white person she would disown them.
we were her 'collegues' not her friends.

i aware not all muslim people are like this as i knew many muslims who would still go bowling and pizza hut even though they sold alcohol they just didnt drink it and in my experience it doesnt seem to be a 1 for all rule, it very much depends on the family of what they can and cant do in regards to the way they view their religion and what is culturally exceptable.

Some people do use their religion as an excuse etc but some people religion really is the reason. some relgious people accomadate and some dont. some non religious people accomadate and some dont. its all swings and roundabouts.

On the work night out options:

none of us had children at that time so activities like feeding the ducks would just be weird for us to do
and indian resturants not everyone likes spicey food........ other resturants sell lots and lots of different dishes that suit all tastes and they do also sell alchol in them in my town anyway.

my experience of cultural intergration are different from yours, i definitely find the asian community both indian and muslim more likely to stick to their own and not mix with white people and want their children to stick to friends of their own race.

i am mixed race and was bought up seeing/viewing/living both sides of the coin. x

I said where I live there are a variety of restaurants that don't serve alcohol, there is even one in South London that serves traditional 'English' food (that is also halal) including steaks and traditional Brtitish pies. I think you are confusing 'race', 'culture' and 'religion' again, no practicing Muslim with any knowledge of the faith would say that they don't want their child to marry a white person, just because some Indian Muslims you have come across brhave like that, it isn't a good example of Muslims on the whole (and they are a minority even in the UK Muslim community). And again just because someone doesn't want to go where alcohol is served doesn't mean they are restricting themselves or 'not integrating', especially over something so minor. A large percentage of Gujarati Indian Muslims actually converted to Islam in the 19th century so they tend to have a lot of cultural baggage from the hindu culture that their ancestors followed and even the seemingly religious ones follow a lot of cultural beliefs with no basis in the Qur'an and Sunnah (sunnah being the example of Prophet Muhammed Peace be upon Him), same goes for those from certain areas of Pakistan. xx

 

[summer rain]

yes i agree, even in school playgrounds i notice that.

Also having worked with children and parents for yonks, 90% of the asian parents (mothers) can not speak english or very little and this does not help with intergrating amongst others x

Again thats just your area because here; the Asian mothers speak English even amongst themselves and quite a lot of them speak English at home. It could be argued at playgroups etc the white mothers stick to their own because I have seen this too, Asian and other minority ethnic parents being slighted (and I say this as a white person) xx

 

[smelly07]

I'm not getting anything confused because im half of that culture/religion/race.
This is MY experience, im never said ALL muslims. I have clearly said its swings and roundabouts and that all people no matter their race/religion or cultural up bringing have different views different experiences.
I can only voice my own opinions of what i have experienced of what i have had seen in MY family and in my life.
I'm not denying anything you say is untrue that is your experience and i respect and appreiciate that however just because your experience is different to mine, it doesnt mean my experiences are any less real/true/right.

Also my collegue was a practising muslim and very knowledgable about her faith and she said that so the 'no muslim.....' etc etc sentence you wrote is untrue because i know of many.

and again i know religions, i know races, i know culture. im not confusing anything and when i talk about indian friends of mine their religion is hindu not muslim.
I'm not just soley pinpointing the muslim religion.

 

[summer rain]

I said no practicing Muslim with any knowledge of the faith, because it is haram to deny someone marrying someone else based on race (or any other worldly criteria)-even in the time of The Prophet Salalaahu Alaihi Was Sallam there were white and black converts and the Muslims were happy to marry their children to them; so how can someone saying they would not let their child marry anyone of a particular race be acting from Islam? You get some cultural Muslims who are 'religious' but in a cultural way due to customs etc rather than genuine religious conviction, they don't know Arabic properly, they don't know Islamic jurisprudence properly, let alone anything else so they make these ignorant remarks. Yes it is fair to say that these people are not practicing Muslims or know the religion properly. I wouldn't call someone a practicing Christian if they were completely ignorant of biblical teachings and behaved in a way contradictory to the bible-even if they attended Church every Sunday. To be fair despite your upbringing you've never been Muslim so you can only go by your experiences with what sound from your various postings to be very cultural and ignorant people; not truly practicing Muslims who chose the faith for themselves xx

 

[smelly07]

Actually thats not true, i'm not religious, i am not muslim now as and adult but as a child growing up my dad did practice the religion and my mum converted however neither myself or my siblings followed it because we wanted to, we all felt more comfortable with my mothers side of the family, but we went to mosque, was not allowed to eat pork, i had to cook, clean and stay in whilst my brothers were allowed to go out and about, i very much have had experience on the religious and cultural side of the asian community, when my dad married my mum they disowned him, not one of his family members went to their wedding, we were 'white' to his family......never truly did fit in or was excepted, eventually they tolerated us and my dad managed to somewhat get his relationship back on track with his family however when he died when i was 16 his family stopped all contact with us.
As adults none of us follow any religion, we all have white partners. whether this is because of our experience of our upbringing who knows, but from my own experience whether its down to religion/culture which i think go hand in hand it was 100% the asian side of my family that had the problems. Ive never said it soley down to religion it is very much a cultural thing however that still stops people intergrating doesnt it? and ive never known a white person who married someone of a different religion not having to convert to that religion before they are excepted.

ive never come across someone who practices there beliefs as you decribe and have those views in all honesty because i do think that religion and the cultural upbringing and what is viewed in the community has an impact.

i do agree its more cultural then religion, i understand that but its still not helping in regards to intergrating as we wouldnt be debating it right now would we xxx

 

[summer rain]

I know quite a few ladies (and men) who married people of various other colours/cultures and were not expected to convert to their religion. One of my mum's best friends when I was young was a lady married to a hindu man, and their daughter went to my school as well, the lady was still Christian and was under no pressure to become hindu. Same with a lot of non-Muslim women I know married to Muslims, in Islam if a man marries a non-Muslim woman she has to be of good character and religious in her own faith be it Christianity or Judaism (the two faiths Muslim men can marry into) but nothing whatsoever to do with skin colour. Converting purely for marriage isn't advised either nor is it required at all in the religious sense. Depending on which statistics you read, up to half the world's muslims are classed as 'white' anyway. Its sad you had those experiences and I myself have exprienced racism from some 'Asian' Muslims when I lived up north (but then again have also experienced it from a minority of those from other Asian religions as well) but that is purely down to culture and not the religion. To be fair you can find things like this even amongst different religions in the 'white' culture, I know Jewish people who were disowned for marrying out, or they converted to Judaism and were classed as 'not properly Jewish' by others, also my mum was brought up in a very staunchly Protestant family with part Northern Irish ancestry, so her mother used to hate Catholics with a passion; my dad came from a very strict, traditional, conservative Catholic family, from the age of 6 he had to take 3 buses a day on his own just to get to the nearest Catholic school deemed suitable by his parents, and yes girls in his family were treated a lot differently to the boys, expected to be homebodies and to dress a certain way etc, and even to this day in his extended family thats the case. When my parents got married my mum's mum was never 100% with her again, and though they just about managed to get my dad's parents to agree to come to the wedding, they always treated my dad differently after that and my dad's dad, who was really old never really spoke to him again before he died a few years later. My parents joined quite an austere Christian sect but just became disillusioned with religion altogether because of their experiences and now my mum is an atheist and my dad is an agnostic. xx

 

[smelly07]

i totally agree with you which is why i bought up about my jehovas whitness collegue to, youre absolutely right that it does happen with other relgions also and i have never denied that.
Our experiences are different,( ive never known anyone to marry without converting) but there is no doubt that there needs to be a change and yes a cultural one!
Been good debating this with you summer rain! x


edit: and its refreshing hearing your experiences x

edit again: and im not religious at all i guess i am classed as 'spiritual but not religious' i do not believe in any religion whatsoever. x

 

[summer rain]

Thanks and I hope I didn't offend you, just I've been Muslim since the mid 90s and lived in a lot of different 'communities' (both in the religious and cultural/ethnic sense) so I've seen things from a lot of different sides also xx

 

[smelly07]

oh no way offended, i like being given food for thought and you have done that. x