off topic... affording more children

[Maze]

Without being rude to anyone I don't feel its anyones right to say who should or shouldn't have a baby.

I worked a well paid salaried job before DD was born. DH also worked. We were both just made redundant. Dh is currently looking for a job. I am not as DD needs a full time carer at home and even if I could work and afford childcare No one locally would be bale to meet her needs as she requires a nursing input to her care.

We are both receiving benefits, Dh until he finds a job. I will receive carers allowance till DD is in school most likely which is when I would be able to return to work. However we would still be having government assistance as DD receives DLA and when she is three will get mobility components as well. Should I now be barred from having any more children because My second child was born with special needs?

We aren't definitely planning a third but why should someone else have the right to decide for me?

I definitely see where you're coming from, I agree there are benefits in place to help families that shouldn't suddenly make people believe they can't afford the kids they have or kids they choose to have in the future.

My son is also disabled and beyond the Child Tax Benefit we also receive a disability benefit, which we will always receive no matter how much my husband and I make.

I think the problem is that when people hear 'benefits' they automatically assume families who choose to live off government money rather than make their own way. Which isn't really fair. Although where I am from that is called assistance and not benefits. Different benefits in Canada are available to anyone of pretty much any income for a variety of reasons.

 

[mdjoy]

Yea, this is definitely a very hard one as I have a friend that did that. I just looked at her like omg... u guys are always crying about not having food or having to get mom-in-law to pay bills for them but they plan on having another??!!! But at the end of the day, it is their choice and now she has a gorgeous little boy, whom she is now supporting along with her 2 others alone, but seems to be doing ok. I myself am a single mom and no, did not intentionally get pregnant and am in financial distress myself. So for me personally, I would not purposely get pregnant when I am having such a hard time and can barely afford the kids I already have. I even went as far as to check out adoption even though I know I can never do so.. but it is very straining when you are unemployed and about to go homeless. So def, I would not intentionally have more. I do know even though things are very hard right now, to the point of having to send my 3 yr old to his dad for a little while, things will get better after I have the baby and am not going to be in this situation long. Things have a way of working out I find. Like I said, to plan a pregnancy in such hard times to me, personally sounds a bit crazy but to each their own and if they fel they can handle it, go for it :-/

 

[Dream.dream]

Personally I don't think if your on benefits or receiving government money you should plan another baby. Of you can't afford your bills alone you certainly shouldn't be planning another child. It's your job to provide for your children and its one thing to fall on hard times and need government help but not to plan your family using governmt assistance as your income

In Canada don't most families receive monthly benefits when they have kids? In Ontario the average family receives the Child Tax Benefit and Universal Care benefit, the amount may vary on what you make of course and how many dependents you have. I just... don't know anyone who doesn't receive any government money who have dependents in this country. My husband makes 40k a year and we still receive benefits. I don't mean to start a debate about things like social assistance programs (unemployment/welfare) I am just confused by the statement since you're also in Canada.

By benefits I mean people who get welfare or income support as there main source of income . Getting 100 dollars towards daycare every month from the universal child care benefit is different then people here who receive 1500 a month from the government and use that as their source of income .

I just find it personally irritating because I have worked 2 part time jobs and gone to school at the same time to be able to afford to live , and know people who get 1500 from welfare to sit at home and have babies. Benefits are ment to help people in hard time not to enable people to stay home with kids they can't afford on their own.

 

[Maze]

Personally I don't think if your on benefits or receiving government money you should plan another baby. Of you can't afford your bills alone you certainly shouldn't be planning another child. It's your job to provide for your children and its one thing to fall on hard times and need government help but not to plan your family using governmt assistance as your income

In Canada don't most families receive monthly benefits when they have kids? In Ontario the average family receives the Child Tax Benefit and Universal Care benefit, the amount may vary on what you make of course and how many dependents you have. I just... don't know anyone who doesn't receive any government money who have dependents in this country. My husband makes 40k a year and we still receive benefits. I don't mean to start a debate about things like social assistance programs (unemployment/welfare) I am just confused by the statement since you're also in Canada.

By benefits I mean people who get welfare or income support as there main source of income . Getting 100 dollars towards daycare every month from the universal child care benefit is different then people here who receive 1500 a month from the government and use that as their source of income .

I just find it personally irritating because I have worked 2 part time jobs and gone to school at the same time to be able to afford to live , and know people who get 1500 from welfare to sit at home and have babies. Benefits are ment to help people in hard time not to enable people to stay home with kids they can't afford on their own.

I see what you're saying, with the child tax benefit, the universal care benefit and the disability benefit I get a little over $1000 a month. Which is a lot, and naturally kind of becomes part of our income and is basically what allows me to stay home with the kids while my husband works. Without it we'd definitely be in a harder place, but it is money the government simply gives us based on our tax information and we didn't apply for it.

I agree that when there is no effort being made and individuals have children almost just to cash in on benefits and assistance that can be pretty sad and aggravating.

 

[PreggyEggy]

I think the thing to remember is that we are lucky enough to live in societies that prioritise help for struggling families and offer assistance.

The myth of the benefit cheats and welfare state is a modern travesty, constantly kept in our minds by the media misrepresenting facts. The real facts are that benefit fraud accounts for a much smaller amount of government spending then you would ever believe watching programs like Channel 4's "Benefits Britain" and the like. We save much more money every year in unclaimed benefits then what is wasted on benefit fraud. I am not saying that benefit fraud isn't a problem - obviously it is. But did you know that the UK looses literally hundreds of billions of pounds in cooperation tax that is legally dodged by large businesses like Amazon? Much much more then is lost in benefit fraud? That if these companies paid the tax they should do, then we would be much much better off as a country?

No, we rarely hear about politicians doing anything to close the legal loop holes that allow big business to do this, and instead we all hear about how there are benefit cheats on every street corner with 10+ kids and council houses worth hundreds of thousands. Keep the general public hating the poor, while the rich get richer behind closed doors.

I feel I am so, so lucky that I live in a country where I can choose to stay at home and give my kids my full attention, and receive help to do so and that nobody can tell me that I can't have as many babies as I want. I am also so thankful for the NHS. But damn, do I wish the government would stop dragging the genuinely poor and downtrodden over the coals, stop persecuting disabled people (bedroom tax anyone? Unfair Atos reports?) and would instead point the finger at big business for once.

I feel very very strongly on this subject!! lol

 

[angelandbump]

I think the thing to remember is that we are lucky enough to live in societies that prioritise help for struggling families and offer assistance.

The myth of the benefit cheats and welfare state is a modern travesty, constantly kept in our minds by the media misrepresenting facts. The real facts are that benefit fraud accounts for a much smaller amount of government spending then you would ever believe watching programs like Channel 4's "Benefits Britain" and the like. We save much more money every year in unclaimed benefits then what is wasted on benefit fraud. I am not saying that benefit fraud isn't a problem - obviously it is. But did you know that the UK looses literally hundreds of billions of pounds in cooperation tax that is legally dodged by large businesses like Amazon? Much much more then is lost in benefit fraud? That if these companies paid the tax they should do, then we would be much much better off as a country?

No, we rarely hear about politicians doing anything to close the legal loop holes that allow big business to do this, and instead we all hear about how there are benefit cheats on every street corner with 10+ kids and council houses worth hundreds of thousands. Keep the general public hating the poor, while the rich get richer behind closed doors.

I feel I am so, so lucky that I live in a country where I can choose to stay at home and give my kids my full attention, and receive help to do so and that nobody can tell me that I can't have as many babies as I want. I am also so thankful for the NHS. But damn, do I wish the government would stop dragging the genuinely poor and downtrodden over the coals, stop persecuting disabled people (bedroom tax anyone? Unfair Atos reports?) and would instead point the finger at big business for once.

I feel very very strongly on this subject!! lol

I see what your saying but I also see it from the other side. I work for our local council authority and you would be surprised just how many women will openly admit to this bedroom tax encouraging people to have another baby. Don't get me wrong, it is still the minority but a lot more common than people think (in my area at least).

 

[6lilpigs]

You've got some good points there Preggyeggy, keep us fighting amongst ourselves whilst the harder job of getting the big boys to pay their taxes can be glossed over maybe!

 

[Hunbun]

I don't really have an opinion on what other people should do, that's their business. But if I was in your friends shoes I personally wouldn't have anymore.

I think it is easier said than done. Logically we all know if you are struggling for money adding another child is not a good idea. But sometimes the heart just wants more babies and it can be hard to be sensible.

 

[iwantabub]

I think if people can't afford the basics like food, shoes, rent, and bills and have to rely on benefits then they shouldn't have more children. It's not fair on anyone really.

This may be controversial but I agree with this poster and further more I think anyone who is on benefits even if one partner works is classes as not wing able to afford more children!
(I'm not sure how it works in other countries) but here in Aus if u earn a normal wage your spouse isn't entitled to anything and not they should be!

We pay $.47c in the $$$ tax because of how hard we work and how much we earn and a big chunk goes to ppl having babies that can't afford it on their own!

Frustrates the hell out of me!

I think true benefits should be there for people who have disabilities, for short term solutions for people made redundant and victims of abuse etc ... Not just because you decided that you felt like staying home and having kids... Save up and work hard and if u can afford it then do it.

 

[MarcsMrs]

We chose that I would be a SAHM when we were TTC #1, that we would have our children close together & then I would go back to work part time when they went to school! It was all a great plan, til DH had to move jobs when I was 8 months pregnant & ended up on a lower salery but at least he has a job.....they are few & far between where we are living!! So yes we do receive assistance from the government & will continue to do so until DH gets a job with better pay or I go back to work. We didnt allow this to change the plan we had made though.....we are careful, really careful, we live on a super tight budget even now before baby #2s arrival, we live pay check to pay check but it wont always be like this, things will get better as the kids get older & I will get to go back to work!

 

[mum22ttc#3]

I think if people can't afford the basics like food, shoes, rent, and bills and have to rely on benefits then they shouldn't have more children. It's not fair on anyone really.

This may be controversial but I agree with this poster and further more I think anyone who is on benefits even if one partner works is classes as not wing able to afford more children!
(I'm not sure how it works in other countries) but here in Aus if u earn a normal wage your spouse isn't entitled to anything and not they should be!

We pay $.47c in the $$$ tax because of how hard we work and how much we earn and a big chunk goes to ppl having babies that can't afford it on their own!

Frustrates the hell out of me!

I think true benefits should be there for people who have disabilities, for short term solutions for people made redundant and victims of abuse etc ... Not just because you decided that you felt like staying home and having kids... Save up and work hard and if u can afford it then do it.

Not just controversial but I think that this is a little naive if I'm honest.

I'm in the uk and OH earns a 'normal wage', a little under the national average and we also get tax credits to top this up. In not sure what living expenses etc are like where you are but here depending on where you live they can be incredibly high. Perhaps if living expenses where brought more into line with what the national 'normal wage' is then there wouldn't be as much need for the likes of tax credits/housing benefits etc.

I actually don't think that by being entitled to tax credits that it should give us any less rights to have kids then it should anyone else not entilted, the way I see it for us is that we are actually getting some of the tax back that OH pays into the system, personally I'm not going to feel guilty for that, perhaps if we wasn't taxed so much then we wouldn't need to be getting the credits which we do.

 

[mum22ttc#3]

I just feel like its kind of saying only the rich deserve kids iykwim? and that for me just doesn't sit right.

It's along the same lines as another poster mentioned earlier, it's just another way of government making it them vs us kind of thing, just another divide of the rich vs poor.

 

[iwantabub]

I think if people can't afford the basics like food, shoes, rent, and bills and have to rely on benefits then they shouldn't have more children. It's not fair on anyone really.

This may be controversial but I agree with this poster and further more I think anyone who is on benefits even if one partner works is classes as not wing able to afford more children!
(I'm not sure how it works in other countries) but here in Aus if u earn a normal wage your spouse isn't entitled to anything and not they should be!

We pay $.47c in the $$$ tax because of how hard we work and how much we earn and a big chunk goes to ppl having babies that can't afford it on their own!

Frustrates the hell out of me!

I think true benefits should be there for people who have disabilities, for short term solutions for people made redundant and victims of abuse etc ... Not just because you decided that you felt like staying home and having kids... Save up and work hard and if u can afford it then do it.

Not just controversial but I think that this is a little naive if I'm honest.

I'm in the uk and OH earns a 'normal wage', a little under the national average and we also get tax credits to top this up. In not sure what living expenses etc are like where you are but here depending on where you live they can be incredibly high. Perhaps if living expenses where brought more into line with what the national 'normal wage' is then there wouldn't be as much need for the likes of tax credits/housing benefits etc.

I actually don't think that by being entitled to tax credits that it should give us any less rights to have kids then it should anyone else not entilted, the way I see it for us is that we are actually getting some of the tax back that OH pays into the system, personally I'm not going to feel guilty for that, perhaps if we wasn't taxed so much then we wouldn't need to be getting the credits which we do.

Just to clarify... We don't have "tax credits" so I think it's obviously a different kettle of fish. (Hence why I said I didn't know about other countries)
We only have "benefits" and essentially u dont reli pay tax at all if you're entitled to benefits here... So people on benefits are usually people who don't work at all or have 15 hours of work a week between the whole family if that makes sense


Our living expenses where I live are some of the highest in the world.

 

[mum22ttc#3]

^^I don't think you pay tax here if you work part-time depending on your rate of pay, I think basically you have an amount you can earn each week before you do iykwim? I'm not entirely sure what the particularly amount is but once you earn above it you start paying tax.

I think like you say it's totally different as I know here you can get certain benefits even when earning up to £40,000.

 

[Maze]

It's definitely different here, because our household earns 40k a year (my husband's salary) and we still get over $1,000 of tax benefits a month, with part of that being parents of a disabled child.

Sounds like it would be really difficult where you are in Australia!

 

[justkitty]

For me it is irrelevant if families claim benefits or not. It's can they afford to meet the family basic needs eg food bills clothes etc. If they can't then perhaps adding to the family could be put on hold . there are alot of families who have been made redundant, lost businesses etc and claim benefits who provide excellent loving homes for their children. I wish every mum had thr choice of staying at home with their child until school age.

 

[jojo_b]

For me it is irrelevant if families claim benefits or not. It's can they afford to meet the family basic needs eg food bills clothes etc. If they can't then perhaps adding to the family could be put on hold . there are alot of families who have been made redundant, lost businesses etc and claim benefits who provide excellent loving homes for their children. I wish every mum had thr choice of staying at home with their child until school age.

See I think this is where I'm probably a bit bitter. I have to work (I work days while hubby has Fin, then he does evenings while I have him). We don't see much of each other and I feel sad that I don't get to be off with Fin (I had to go back to work when he was nearly 4 months). I know girls who don't worry that they've gotten pregnant because paying for baby and bills just isn't an issue at all - not because they work, but because they don't work. I just feel it's really unfair that we budget and plan carefully and worry about money, where it's not even on their radar. Meh.

 

[Tammy77]

I agree with posters that said you shouldn't have more kids if you can't at least afford the basic necessities for them WITHOUT public assistance. Having to support people's VOLUNTARY conceptions long term (as in, not because of an unexpected job loss after the baby was conceived, etc.) is nothing but a drain on society as a whole.

Personally, I've worked full time up until now. My DH and I knew that once this baby was here I would not be working anymore because childcare for three kids would be almost as much as my salary. If we couldn't make it, we wouldn't have tried for this one even though she is very much wanted. It's just the responsible thing to do.

 

[PreggyEggy]

I think the thing to remember is that we are lucky enough to live in societies that prioritise help for struggling families and offer assistance.

The myth of the benefit cheats and welfare state is a modern travesty, constantly kept in our minds by the media misrepresenting facts. The real facts are that benefit fraud accounts for a much smaller amount of government spending then you would ever believe watching programs like Channel 4's "Benefits Britain" and the like. We save much more money every year in unclaimed benefits then what is wasted on benefit fraud. I am not saying that benefit fraud isn't a problem - obviously it is. But did you know that the UK looses literally hundreds of billions of pounds in cooperation tax that is legally dodged by large businesses like Amazon? Much much more then is lost in benefit fraud? That if these companies paid the tax they should do, then we would be much much better off as a country?

No, we rarely hear about politicians doing anything to close the legal loop holes that allow big business to do this, and instead we all hear about how there are benefit cheats on every street corner with 10+ kids and council houses worth hundreds of thousands. Keep the general public hating the poor, while the rich get richer behind closed doors.

I feel I am so, so lucky that I live in a country where I can choose to stay at home and give my kids my full attention, and receive help to do so and that nobody can tell me that I can't have as many babies as I want. I am also so thankful for the NHS. But damn, do I wish the government would stop dragging the genuinely poor and downtrodden over the coals, stop persecuting disabled people (bedroom tax anyone? Unfair Atos reports?) and would instead point the finger at big business for once.

I feel very very strongly on this subject!! lol

I see what your saying but I also see it from the other side. I work for our local council authority and you would be surprised just how many women will openly admit to this bedroom tax encouraging people to have another baby. Don't get me wrong, it is still the minority but a lot more common than people think (in my area at least).

See that's why I think the bedroom tax doesn't work if it encourages people to have more babies to keep their houses. I agree that something needs to be done about our housing crisis, but the bedroom tax just doesn't seem the way to go. It penalises people who really need spare bedrooms.

You've got some good points there Preggyeggy, keep us fighting amongst ourselves whilst the harder job of getting the big boys to pay their taxes can be glossed over maybe!

Yep, and then they'll manipulate us into hating essential services like benefits and the NHS so that they can justify spending cuts and cutting back on benefits, which will only benefit the rich and increase the amount of people living in poverty in our country!

I think if people can't afford the basics like food, shoes, rent, and bills and have to rely on benefits then they shouldn't have more children. It's not fair on anyone really.

This may be controversial but I agree with this poster and further more I think anyone who is on benefits even if one partner works is classes as not wing able to afford more children!
(I'm not sure how it works in other countries) but here in Aus if u earn a normal wage your spouse isn't entitled to anything and not they should be!

We pay $.47c in the $$$ tax because of how hard we work and how much we earn and a big chunk goes to ppl having babies that can't afford it on their own!

Frustrates the hell out of me!

I think true benefits should be there for people who have disabilities, for short term solutions for people made redundant and victims of abuse etc ... Not just because you decided that you felt like staying home and having kids... Save up and work hard and if u can afford it then do it.

Nope, sorry, we receive child benefit and working tax credits. My DH works full-time in a well paid job (though certainly not the best paid, but enough and he has good career benefits and prospects) and we pay plenty of tax. We get around £400 a month.

Child benefit is given to us because we have babies, and believe it or not we do actually need to have kids to be the next generation of the workforce and to support our ageing society. Working tax credits are given to us because my DH works, but because of the amount of tax we pay, if we weren't given it we would never get by! An odd system really, I don't know why we just don't pay less tax and keep more of our salary...

I'm well within my rights to reproduce as often as I want, as anyone is.

 

[TMonster]

From my perspective, government benefits exist and should only exist to help those who are in temporary need of assistance (not talking about disability but stuff like welfare, food stamps, unemployment etc.) and I can understand that if someone lost their job but they are planning on working etc. they shouldn't necessarily alter their plans to grow their family but I am a bit less comfortable with people who choose welfare as a lifestyle choice and then proceed to have child after child to increase their benefits.

DH and I are in an interesting situation because our combined income gives us about 180-200k/year depending on how much I work (I work from home) BUT we also live in NYC where the cost of living is INSANE and DH is still 100k in debt from school.

DH chooses to work for the federal government which allows him to earn a decent salary with decent benefits on a 40 hour work week which allows him to have the work/life balance he wants. DH can easily go out and earn 500k+ but it would also mean working 80 hours/week and right now he feels like its more important to him to have that time to spend with his family and me being able to work from home and working on building my own business will help tremendously as well. The general plan for us is for DH to stay in his job for another 5-10 years and then cash out of government and move to the private sector in a very senior position in a bank or a partner at a large law firm, work insane hours for a few years to put his kids through college and build up our retirement fund and retire.

That said, on our current income DH doesn't feel like we can afford more than one kid and I think we can afford 2 and possibly 3. He is worried about his debt and my business not getting off the ground (whether it does or not my income is fairly stable where it is) but we live in a 1 bedroom apt and just the cost of moving into a 2 bedroom will be about double our rent and if we need a 3 bedroom... well... I try not to think about the cost of that.

Almost anywhere else in the country we would be well off but in NYC and with what we pay in taxes (federal, state and city) as well as what we lose in benefits (we earn too much for a lot of the bigger tax breaks like student debt) that it becomes really hard.

I know eventually we will be able to afford 3 kids once he is out of debt, if/when my business takes off or when he moves to the private sector but is it fair to the children to stuff 3 kids in one bedroom, not be able to afford to go on family vacations or much of anything else because we are stretching our resources too thin?

Unfortunately, due to DHs disability (he has a very severe visual impairment) we are also forced to stay in NYC.

We argue about it all the time.