off topic... affording more children

[steph.]

I don't have a problem with people who fairly receive benefits.
Here in Australia you are entitled to a family tax benifit even if there is a working member, but if there is a working member it gets cut drastically. Normal is about $600 a month. Mine is cut to around $205 a month and my DH doesn't earn a great deal.

But it makes me so angry when you see people like my sister and her husband who REFUSE to work because the benifit system pays better.
They have one child with a disability that they take advantage of to get extra money from the government then use it for family holidays.
And 2 other children.

They adverse about $3000 a month between them TAX FREE dollars. Then get discounts on EVERYTHING because they are on benefits.

Where as my husband who works. ( I'm not working anymore) and I have to pay full price for everything and we only just earn take home a little bit over what they get on benefits.

How is THAT fair. My husband works 6 days a week shift work only to be spat on by government cheats?? It's not fair and its NOT right.

So I get what a PP was saying.

Benifit cheats might be the minority, but it doesn't hurt any less especially to those who do the right thing.


I do have a problem with people who CHOOSE not to work just because they don't like their job and would rather receive benefits.
If more people were honest the taxes we pay could go towards a better health system, schooling and development and an equal amount distributed to help the citizens of our country live a little more comfortably. Not funding the lazy while the people doing the right thing suffer.

Completely agree with you. I know this 35year old guy who choses not to work because he would rather sit around drinking beer and smoking marijuana all day. He is completely fit, completely healthy but somehow gets disability benefits. Just as well he is too stoned most of the time to think about getting a girlfriend and having kids.

 

[Glitter_berry]

I don't have a problem with people who fairly receive benefits.
Here in Australia you are entitled to a family tax benifit even if there is a working member, but if there is a working member it gets cut drastically. Normal is about $600 a month. Mine is cut to around $205 a month and my DH doesn't earn a great deal.

But it makes me so angry when you see people like my sister and her husband who REFUSE to work because the benifit system pays better.
They have one child with a disability that they take advantage of to get extra money from the government then use it for family holidays.
And 2 other children.

They adverse about $3000 a month between them TAX FREE dollars. Then get discounts on EVERYTHING because they are on benefits.

Where as my husband who works. ( I'm not working anymore) and I have to pay full price for everything and we only just earn take home a little bit over what they get on benefits.

How is THAT fair. My husband works 6 days a week shift work only to be spat on by government cheats?? It's not fair and its NOT right.

So I get what a PP was saying.

Benifit cheats might be the minority, but it doesn't hurt any less especially to those who do the right thing.


I do have a problem with people who CHOOSE not to work just because they don't like their job and would rather receive benefits.
If more people were honest the taxes we pay could go towards a better health system, schooling and development and an equal amount distributed to help the citizens of our country live a little more comfortably. Not funding the lazy while the people doing the right thing suffer.

Completely agree with you. I know this 35year old guy who choses not to work because he would rather sit around drinking beer and smoking marijuana all day. He is completely fit, completely healthy but somehow gets disability benefits. Just as well he is too stoned most of the time to think about getting a girlfriend and having kids.

Ha ha sorry to any non Australian here who won't get the following joke I'm about to make ( google the god awful aus tv show "housos theme song" ) , but steph. Doesn't it just make you think of this when you see people like that!

"We hang down on the block, this is where we live and we just dont give a f**k, cause we dont have a job, some scam. Others rob. We wear thongs bro, we do A.V.O's, we wear uggs bro. Where'd me kids go? Houso's houso's!! "

 

[darkriver]

I grew up in a jeremy kyle style family. I cant remember my mum ever working until my teens and even then she only did it for a short while. My stepfather was "disabled" but was able to carry washing machines and that sort of thing. There were 4 children, but never seemed to be enough for food, but always enough for cigs.

My sister who is 18 had her 3rd child last year. She has never worked. My brother had his second in April he has worked for six months in his life. He is 21 now. I fear my youngest brother is about to head the sameway.

I hate it. I want to be able to provide for my daughter without feeling guilty.

 

[Glitter_berry]

I grew up in a jeremy kyle style family. I cant remember my mum ever working until my teens and even then she only did it for a short while. My stepfather was "disabled" but was able to carry washing machines and that sort of thing. There were 4 children, but never seemed to be enough for food, but always enough for cigs.

My sister who is 18 had her 3rd child last year. She has never worked. My brother had his second in April he has worked for six months in his life. He is 21 now. I fear my youngest brother is about to head the sameway.

I hate it. I want to be able to provide for my daughter without feeling guilty.

you should feel super proud that you have broken the cycle.
You're going to be a great mummy. Xoxox

 

[iwantabub]

Yep... I only just found out by reading this that we get it here in Australia too... It's alled family tax benefit or whatever.

Were not entitled to it of course lol

Everyone is entitled to family tax benifit unless you earn over $100k a year.

My DH earns about 60,000 so we are entitled to it but it gets cut drastically. The usual rate of payment is about $350 a fortnight and we are entitled to $100 a fortnight of it wheb i was working we got $1.35 ( lmao why even pay someone that) Or you can receive it as a lump sum at tax time.

We however are not entitled to a "parenting payment" or a health care card and it has cost is so much for scans etc as we have to pay out of pocket.
We aren't entitled to the PBS prescription medication and pay full price.

I think every one should pay the one price for medication.

What costs my sister $10 at the chemist costs me $120 in asthma medication for my daughter.
$5 for her pill prescription but $38 for mine?

I fail to see how that is fair AT ALL!!
I think maybe if they made the PBS prices higher but affordable everyone except those who are on a medical pension should have to pay the same.

Even if they put ALL children under 16 on the PBS.

Is that 100k as a family or singly...

combined we earn over $200,000 so I don't think we would get anything lol

 

[Glitter_berry]

100k or 150k combined.

I think that's pretty fair though. And that people on a low wage deserve some assistance for getting out there and having a go.
It's not their fault they put in 50+ hour work weeks and get paid crap. Where as some people get paid better.

Just if everyone was a little more honest and willing to have a go, the governments money would be able to be spent and distributed better to make out nation as a whole benifit.


I guess all we can do is make the most of what we have.
And when we do come across those people who do cheat the system and abuse the privileges think.
Well I'm glad that's not me and I'm proud of what I have done for my little family.

And when we see people who are unable to work or really need their benefits due to illness or disability or low income think, I'm proud I live in a country where people who genuinely need it still get help.

 

[iwantabub]

100k or 150k combined.

I think that's pretty fair though. And that people on a low wage deserve some assistance for getting out there and having a go.
It's not their fault they put in 50+ hour work weeks and get paid crap. Where as some people get paid better.

Just if everyone was a little more honest and willing to have a go, the governments money would be able to be spent and distributed better to make out nation as a whole benifit.


I guess all we can do is make the most of what we have.
And when we do come across those people who do cheat the system and abuse the privileges think.
Well I'm glad that's not me and I'm proud of what I have done for my little family.

And when we see people who are unable to work or really need their benefits due to illness or disability or low income think, I'm proud I live in a country where people who genuinely need it still get help.

I get what your saying but that's why people study and strive for better ....u say people can't help they have low paying jobs when in actual fact majority can its a choice thing
It's not anyone's fault that most people finish high school and don't study or study very limited things and get paid average...


People on lower income get lower taxed at the start anyway so there isn't a need for support... It's people's choice the job they do and we live in a country that helps people study etc so it's not the governments problem that they have low paying jobs...

I do agree that disability and help for people who genuinely can't work is a great great thing

 

[steph.]

100k or 150k combined.

I think that's pretty fair though. And that people on a low wage deserve some assistance for getting out there and having a go.
It's not their fault they put in 50+ hour work weeks and get paid crap. Where as some people get paid better.

Just if everyone was a little more honest and willing to have a go, the governments money would be able to be spent and distributed better to make out nation as a whole benifit.


I guess all we can do is make the most of what we have.
And when we do come across those people who do cheat the system and abuse the privileges think.
Well I'm glad that's not me and I'm proud of what I have done for my little family.

And when we see people who are unable to work or really need their benefits due to illness or disability or low income think, I'm proud I live in a country where people who genuinely need it still get help.

I get what your saying but that's why people study and strive for better ....u say people can't help they have low paying jobs when in actual fact majority can its a choice thing
It's not anyone's fault that most people finish high school and don't study or study very limited things and get paid average...


People on lower income get lower taxed at the start anyway so there isn't a need for support... It's people's choice the job they do and we live in a country that helps people study etc so it's not the governments problem that they have low paying jobs...

I do agree that disability and help for people who genuinely can't work is a great great thing

But we need people to do those jobs. We need someone to drive the bin truck, be a bus driver, clean. I think its fair enough these people get more help, or we wouldnt function as a society.

I am quite happy with the help we have received from the government. My dh earns about 115k, i am not working at the moment. We received more than I would have expected, and now that my dd started daycare instead of paying $86 a day, we only have to pay $40 out of pocket. Its pretty good.

 

[Glitter_berry]

100k or 150k combined.

I think that's pretty fair though. And that people on a low wage deserve some assistance for getting out there and having a go.
It's not their fault they put in 50+ hour work weeks and get paid crap. Where as some people get paid better.

Just if everyone was a little more honest and willing to have a go, the governments money would be able to be spent and distributed better to make out nation as a whole benifit.


I guess all we can do is make the most of what we have.
And when we do come across those people who do cheat the system and abuse the privileges think.
Well I'm glad that's not me and I'm proud of what I have done for my little family.

And when we see people who are unable to work or really need their benefits due to illness or disability or low income think, I'm proud I live in a country where people who genuinely need it still get help.

I get what your saying but that's why people study and strive for better ....u say people can't help they have low paying jobs when in actual fact majority can its a choice thing
It's not anyone's fault that most people finish high school and don't study or study very limited things and get paid average...


People on lower income get lower taxed at the start anyway so there isn't a need for support... It's people's choice the job they do and we live in a country that helps people study etc so it's not the governments problem that they have low paying jobs...

I do agree that disability and help for people who genuinely can't work is a great great thing

I dunno. I think anyone who is getting out there and having a go is equal.

Whether you went to university and are a lawyer. Or you had to go out and get a job as a garbage man to support your family and have no time inbetween home and work to study. No one is "better" than the other as long as you are working to YOUR full potential.

There are different levels of employment difficulty for people with different levels of talent and education.

I don't think we should be putting down anybody that is having a go and especially those who are "choosing" to work in "shit kicker" jobs because that's the only way they can support their family.

I don't look down ony husband for working as a storeman when, when I work within months I have moved up into a supervisors position in each place of work I have been at.

Like I don't look down on the person who packs my groceries, or the low paid mechanic who fixes my car.
We all have our place and as long as we are having a go, we should be proud of that role we take on.


My only gripe is like I said before is with those who have no desire to TRY or do their part out of pure laziness.

 

[iwantabub]

All I'm saying if everyone having a go is equal then everyone should get the same benefits and tax rate

I totally agree that those jobs are necessary and I don't at all think that's beneath anyone at all... But I just feel like we're penalised for earning more that's all

I started in a family where no one had even finished high school and my dad works harder than anyone I know at a low paying job and has had 3 sick days in over 30 years...

Trust me I'm not having a go at anyone lower income...

I just think that everyone Should be equal and no one should pay more then anyone in tax etc

 

[iwantabub]

I guess I just look at it like if someone said to u...

"So you can go study... Work hard while studying at a shit paying job and to try and achieve something but then once u get there u will pay more than anyone else in tax ... Not only because u earn more but beause were gonna tax u higher in the $ than anyone else."

And then were gonna give everyone who earns lower then u more money to top them up Aswell....
What's the point in studying then?

Everyone needs to earn different amounts of money based on skill level and experience and hard working ethics... It's nature ... Fight against it and give people too much and take away from others ... That's how communism started

Doesn't mean anyone is beneath anyone ... Just the way the world works.

 

[Glitter_berry]

All I'm saying if everyone having a go is equal then everyone should get the same benefits and tax rate

I totally agree that those jobs are necessary and I don't at all think that's beneath anyone at all... But I just feel like we're penalised for earning more that's all

In an ideal world we would.

In an ideal world people wouldn't put cigarettes, drugs and alcohol before their children.

People wouldn't put wants before needs.

Everyone would would chip in and every family would be able to have one parent stay at home if that's what they chose.

But unfortunately we don't.

And that's why I was saying before. All we can do is look at what we accomplish as an individual and be grateful that OUR children are going to grow up in a stable environment and learn the lessons we want them to be taught.

Yes it upsets me when I see my benifit cheating sister and BIL driving around in a brand new car and holidays in QLD every second year because they dont have to pay for medical expenses or schooling ( dishonestly) while we drive what we can afford and go on holidays when we can afford it because we are struggling.
But at the end of the day, everything we have, we earned and when I look at my daughter and the things she has learned I am proud.

She doesn't think she is entitled and an instance of this was when I though she was in bed and I was crying to my husband about savings for our house deposit and just not having enough money yet ( we rent atm) and she walks up to me and gives me her piggy bank and says you can have my money mum. If you need it. I was damn proud. ( it makes me tear up thinking of it)

When I know my sisters kids wouldn't ever give anything to anyone because they have learned to take take take and that's it's okay to con the government for money they are "entitled" too.

The bad apples in society make me more appreciative for everything I have.

And you should be proud too.

( don't worry tomorrow I will be having a bad hormone day and declaring we burn all tax cheats at the stake but I must say it feels good not to feel like a crazy hormonal pregnant lady today. I feel an odd sense of calm)

 

[steph.]

I guess I just look at it like if someone said to u...

"So you can go study... Work hard while studying at a shit paying job and to try and achieve something but then once u get there u will pay more than anyone else in tax ... Not only because u earn more but beause were gonna tax u higher in the $ than anyone else."

And then were gonna give everyone who earns lower then u more money to top them up Aswell....
What's the point in studying then?

Everyone needs to earn different amounts of money based on skill level and experience and hard working ethics... It's nature ... Fight against it and give people too much and take away from others ... That's how communism started

Doesn't mean anyone is beneath anyone ... Just the way the world works.

I know what you mean, I went through 5 years of medical school, awful shift work, and lot of responsibility. My dh also went through 5 year of uni, and is now also doing an MBA. It sucks to get taxed a lot, but (i think!) we are still better off than people in lower paying job who receive more benefits.

 

[mum22ttc#3]

The whole premise of "tax credits"

Why should any one get part of their tax back when others dont?

How is that fair?

What are tax credits?
I want tax credits lol!!

We only get back in tax the things we can claim like laundry, things we have bought specifically for work, union fees etc.

My DH paid approximately $12,000 in tax and only got $300 back ?


I got $200 back because I had to buy my own uniform and was able to claim it. So technically we didn't benifit just paid for work related things.

Tax credits in the uk are basically the same thing as your talking about in Australia. Although people out of work get them (along with other benefits) they are also used here for families on lower incomes to top up wages to a more average and a more liveable wage.

 

[mum22ttc#3]

I guess I just look at it like if someone said to u...

"So you can go study... Work hard while studying at a shit paying job and to try and achieve something but then once u get there u will pay more than anyone else in tax ... Not only because u earn more but beause were gonna tax u higher in the $ than anyone else."

And then were gonna give everyone who earns lower then u more money to top them up Aswell....
What's the point in studying then?

Everyone needs to earn different amounts of money based on skill level and experience and hard working ethics... It's nature ... Fight against it and give people too much and take away from others ... That's how communism started

Doesn't mean anyone is beneath anyone ... Just the way the world works.

But surely those on these benefits aren't actually getting toped up to what you are earning when you say you are a high earner and in the top tax bracket?
Obviously I don't know how it works there but here that wouldn't happen, you would be toped up to an average wage which is deemed liveable iykwim? So there would still be many many people earning above you on different amounts etc.

They have also brought in recently that those on full benefits, so housing allowance, council tax allowance, tax credits, jobseekers etc wouldn't be able to claim more than what the national average for a job actually is, the limit you can receive is £500 a week in all benefits, Im not sure though whether some benefits are excempt from this like disability allowance? I hope that made sense?

 

[teacup22]

I guess I just look at it like if someone said to u...

"So you can go study... Work hard while studying at a shit paying job and to try and achieve something but then once u get there u will pay more than anyone else in tax ... Not only because u earn more but beause were gonna tax u higher in the $ than anyone else."

And then were gonna give everyone who earns lower then u more money to top them up Aswell....
What's the point in studying then?

Everyone needs to earn different amounts of money based on skill level and experience and hard working ethics... It's nature ... Fight against it and give people too much and take away from others ... That's how communism started

Doesn't mean anyone is beneath anyone ... Just the way the world works.

But surely those on these benefits aren't actually getting toped up to what you are earning when you say you are a high earner and in the top tax bracket?
Obviously I don't know how it works there but here that wouldn't happen, you would be toped up to an average wage which is deemed liveable iykwim? So there would still be many many people earning above you on different amounts etc.

They have also brought in recently that those on full benefits, so housing allowance, council tax allowance, tax credits, jobseekers etc wouldn't be able to claim more than what the national average for a job actually is, the limit you can receive is £500 a week in all benefits, Im not sure though whether some benefits are excempt from this like disability allowance? I hope that made sense?

Certainly NOT! Including wages and 'benefits' our monthly income is £1700 of which £650 is rent... Because rent is stupid here and we don't even live in London were on the south coast.
I think that is a lot less than many who are in the high tax bracket and we STILL pay some tax and national insurance

 

[mum22ttc#3]

^^ We are on the south coast too and although our wages combined with tax credits are a little higher than yours they are no where near those of a 'higher earner'. I wish lol

I might be wrong but it's just from the way that it was mentioned I.e no point in studying as wages are topped right up I assume that you can get the equivilant over there with a much higher cut off point?

 

[jojo_b]

Feel like I'm repeating the same point over and over. I don't have a problem when people are forced into using benefits to survive - that's what they're there for. I'm using my husbands ex as an example. She used to do 16 hours a week at a supermarket but said there was no point in doing more because she would lose her benefits. She went on a foreign holiday once a year, was out every other weekend at least, frequently in a new outfit, and didn't tell the authorities that her partner was living with her (though she was quite happy to tell him to chip in for bills!). When she accidentally got pregnant by him (she already had a child by a previous partner), there was no point where she thought "shit - how will we afford this? Where's he going to sleep?" etc. she was just moved into a bigger council house. THIS is the type of misuse of benefits I have a problem with. At no point did I say that I thought this represented the majority - I don't believe for a second that it does. However it still makes my blood boil!

 

[mum22ttc#3]

Feel like I'm repeating the same point over and over. I don't have a problem when people are forced into using benefits to survive - that's what they're there for. I'm using my husbands ex as an example. She used to do 16 hours a week at a supermarket but said there was no point in doing more because she would lose her benefits. She went on a foreign holiday once a year, was out every other weekend at least, frequently in a new outfit, and didn't tell the authorities that her partner was living with her (though she was quite happy to tell him to chip in for bills!). When she accidentally got pregnant by him (she already had a child by a previous partner), there was no point where she thought "shit - how will we afford this? Where's he going to sleep?" etc. she was just moved into a bigger council house. THIS is the type of misuse of benefits I have a problem with. At no point did I say that I thought this represented the majority - I don't believe for a second that it does. However it still makes my blood boil!

If you thought that any of my posts were aimed at you they genuinely wasn't For me I just think theres a lot of confusion over the different kinds of benefits between the different countries.

Even though we do receive tax credits as a top up it also makes me angry to see others fiddling the system getting more than we do when my partner works 50 plus hours each week, and I know a few of them too.

It's also wrong though that the government allow for others to be better off on full benefits rather than going out and getting a job, a huge proportion of OH's wages go towards petrol and because of this we have sat down in the past and worked out that we would be better off if he was out of work, obviously he still works and we choose to pay the petrol so that he can have a job but I do think it's unfair that the government make it this way. Hopefully with all the changes it will change and it will pay to work whether it be a minimum wage job or not, well see.

 

[TMonster]

Part of the problem, at least in the US, is that "high earners" are considered to be middle or upper middle class and end up getting screwed the most. We don't have enough money for all sorts of insane tax shelters and funneling money through some bank account in the Caribbean and we earn too much to get any of the real tax breaks and benefits.

There are certain thresholds where it makes more sense for one partner to not work because it will elevate you into a tax bracket where you will end up with almost no net gain for having both partners working due to the increase in payments and that happens on the lower end as well as on the higher end of middle class here and it's extremely frustrating which is why I think there should simply be a flat tax.

As far as needing people to do lower level jobs; I completely agree, we do, but in almost all cases those are entry level jobs to get someone in the door and they should be able to move up within the company and earn more money. In many cases those jobs should be done by teenagers or perhaps even those fresh out of school depending on the job but it shouldn't be intended as something for lifetime employment and something people should start or increase their family under and just say that they will get benefits to make things work.

When my sister was 16 she got a job working at a Dunkin Donuts, within 6 months she was promoted to a supervisor position while there were other people there who have been there for 2, 3 and even 5 years who were not. There was a lot of animosity towards her but my sister also worked her a** off and tried really hard to do the best she could while others were content doing mediocre work, coming in late, not putting in a ton of effort, taking lots of breaks etc.

My father came to the US without speaking a word of English after marrying my mother (my mother moved here when she was 12 with her family and married him at 18.) He started off by selling toys and electronic equipment out of a van with my mother being dragged around with him translating for him.

Within 2 years my father was not only fluent in English but Spanish as well, opened his own shop and then eventually multiple shops followed by warehouses. He eventually became extremely successful and he started out with literally nothing. My parents never received any government benefits and even after they had me they struggled financially for a while but learned to make do with what they had and didn't have a child unless they knew that they could take care of the child's basic needs. That doesn't mean anything fancy but to them it also meant living without outside assistance.

People may want to talk about how benefit fraud is such a small percentage but the fact that almost everyone on this thread seems to know at least one person who is benefiting from benefit fraud I find it extremely disturbing.

I have no problem with assistance for those who are in temporary need or those who are dealing with genuine disabilities or special needs children etc. but in the US there are plenty of people who do want to have more children simply to increase the amount of benefits they can receive. There are people who are irresponsible and try to have children while on a minimum wage job instead of waiting another year or two to be in a better financial position and then end up hurt by needing to take more time off, finding it harder to go to school etc. there are also those who wait to have children, not until they are wealthy but until they have completed their education or are financially stable enough to do that. I am not talking about unplanned pregnancies etc. but those actively TTC.

When I was looking at the private schools in NYC (not because I want to or can even afford to send my child to a private school in NYC but I was merely curious) most of them have a policy where if you apply for financial aid from the school and one parent chooses to stay at home and isn't taking care of a baby or special needs child, they will impute an income of 50k/year whether its what the person could have legitimately earned working outside the home or not. When I was on a different forum reading about it, parents who sent their children to private schools were outraged because most parents who send their children to private schools here require both parents to work and they genuinely believed that if that parent actually worked the income they would earn is higher than 50k/year and that they should not be entitled to financial aid unless both parents were doing the best they can first to meet their child's financial obligations, especially if they want their child to attend a private school.

I spent some time living in Sweden and it was a very interesting experience because there was almost no poverty but no extreme wealth either. It was very different from the US and while I disagree with much of their system there what I found very interesting is that there is no minimum wage there. Everything is unionized and pretty much every company believes its their responsibility to pay a living wage. Of course the cost of a lot of basic things like groceries is MUCH higher than in the US I found it fascinating that even the McDonalds workers there earned a starting salary of something equivalent $22/hour USD and were entitled to regular salary increases etc.