Science and Philosophy Club Rules OK!

[Sarahkka]

While there are always exceptions, I think that prophetic dreams are our own brains sorting out observations and putting together possibilities. We store up numerous detailed observations throughout a typical day without realizing it. Our brains use sleep to sort those observations out. Sometimes our subconscious finds a pattern, a narrative of sorts amongst the all those details, and pieces the clues together.
We had the information to make the prediction all along. We just weren't able to put it together consciously.

I'd still love to discuss the Gaia Hypothesis - the idea that earth is a living organism and that as something that is threatening that organism, we could be shaken off like a bad germ!
Thoughts?

 

[Sarahkka]

Something that i think is interesting is how Atheist have a hard time in the US. Over here I feel that everybody keeps their way of life private and nobody gives much a shit about what you believe and what you don't. t seems to be a big deal in the US though particularly the southern states to know that your opposite has this and that religion and have a problem if he does not .

I don't know if that's entirely true. I live in Tennessee and I'm a baptist and my husband is jewish. We respect each others beliefs. He isn't offended by the fact that I want a Christmas tree in the house and I'm not offended by the mennorah on the coffee table.

I just wanted to say that you sound like quite an extraordinary lady. And I agree that whatever that unifying force is (God, molecules, whatever it is), that it's essence is love.

 

[morri]

hah, I have read of a study where they went to common ghost report places and they found that for example at the tower theres a corner and everybody thinks there are ghost but actually the air temperature drops a few degrees there and thats why people think theres a ghost.

 

[PeanutBean]

- Dreams which foretell events. NOT ALL dreams and not so much so that people can change the course of their lives to any great degree. Also some dreams are just random dreams but others seem not to be. And the dreams are not great life changing lottery number revealing things, they're just a few random insights into things.
- "hallucinations" which have deep spiritual impact for the hallucinator and experienced without the use of any mind altering substances. Random timings and not a regular occurrence.

Experiences of people I know but for some reason don't trust implicitly even though they are really nice people:
- Seeing ghosts.

Oh this is interesting! As it happens my Mum has foretelling dreams and I totally believe her. Usually they are dreams not about telling the future but rather her brain has metaphorically worked out an answer to some problem or other - I too get very explicit dreams sometimes that are clearly my brain sending a message about something from my conscious. However, my Mum dreamt about the house I grew up in before they'd started looking for houses and it's in a village she'd never seen before. She dreamt about the whole aspect of it's situation and so knew it was the right one when they finally found it. She's had some other dreams like this. She is excellent at analysing dreams, and always spots the metaphors in mine if I don't. None of this dream book rubbish. I would also like to mention that she is an excellent mathematician and computer scientist and hugely wily about all things societal and political so she's really not inclined to lapses of logic.

And for ghosts I am generally sceptical and take heed of the research demonstrating that ultra low frequencies can cause a sort of hallucination, or rather the sense of there being someone there. That said, my brother swears he saw a ghost of an old woman in a victorian sort of wicker wheel chair at an arts house and theatre we went to as children. He truly believes it. Also a pub where my sister worked was supposed to be haunted and both her and my boyfriend around the same time had experiences of this. So wh knows?

Sarahkka, I posted something about Gaia before.

 

[redpoppy]

Oh this is interesting! As it happens my Mum has foretelling dreams and I totally believe her. Usually they are dreams not about telling the future but rather her brain has metaphorically worked out an answer to some problem or other - I too get very explicit dreams sometimes that are clearly my brain sending a message about something from my conscious. However, my Mum dreamt about the house I grew up in before they'd started looking for houses and it's in a village she'd never seen before. She dreamt about the whole aspect of it's situation and so knew it was the right one when they finally found it. She's had some other dreams like this. She is excellent at analysing dreams, and always spots the metaphors in mine if I don't. None of this dream book rubbish. I would also like to mention that she is an excellent mathematician and computer scientist and hugely wily about all things societal and political so she's really not inclined to lapses of logic.

And for ghosts I am generally sceptical and take heed of the research demonstrating that ultra low frequencies can cause a sort of hallucination, or rather the sense of there being someone there. That said, my brother swears he saw a ghost of an old woman in a victorian sort of wicker wheel chair at an arts house and theatre we went to as children. He truly believes it. Also a pub where my sister worked was supposed to be haunted and both her and my boyfriend around the same time had experiences of this. So wh knows?

Sarahkka, I posted something about Gaia before.

Isn't it lame that humans get happy when people think similar to them?

I believe your mum. but i aint so sure about your brother

 

[PeanutBean]

Isn't it lame that humans get happy when people think similar to them?

I believe your mum. but i aint so sure about your brother

Well we're social animals, how would we all get together if we disagreed on everything? lol

I think I painted my Mum's picture a little better than my brothers! haha

 

[redpoppy]

Isn't it lame that humans get happy when people think similar to them?

I believe your mum. but i aint so sure about your brother

Well we're social animals, how would we all get together if we disagreed on everything? lol

I think I painted my Mum's picture a little better than my brothers! haha

Yeah, That's what I would have done too.

 

[brownhairedmom]

Alright this is what I think. I'll also state my bias because I have a religious studies minor

Most of me wants to believe in evolution. When I look at animals and things, I think its evolution. When you look at your babies though...do you look at them and think "wow he/she evolved"? I don't. I don't really know what I think about the whole way everything came together. I mean, how can something as perfect as babies just come out of apes?!?! I mean, apes aren't that cute

I also don't believe in God the persona. I believe in spiritual energy that is just everything. Its God, its Allah, its astrology, its the law of attraction...its just one spirit, its all the same thing. God = fate = destiny = us. I just think its the whole joining of everything in the world together is God, if that makes any sense?!?!

Global warming is our faults and we should be ashamed of ourselves.

 

[PeanutBean]

Most of me wants to believe in evolution. When I look at animals and things, I think its evolution. When you look at your babies though...do you look at them and think "wow he/she evolved"? I don't. I don't really know what I think about the whole way everything came together. I mean, how can something as perfect as babies just come out of apes?!?! I mean, apes aren't that cute

I also don't believe in God the persona. I believe in spiritual energy that is just everything. Its God, its Allah, its astrology, its the law of attraction...its just one spirit, its all the same thing. God = fate = destiny = us. I just think its the whole joining of everything in the world together is God, if that makes any sense?!?!

Global warming is our faults and we should be ashamed of ourselves.

Hey you, long time no chat!

I do look at Byron and see him as a product of evolution, if I'm thinking that way. I'm more amazed that I've been able to create something so wonderful than that nature has. And I don't think he's perfect, not in this sense (of course he's perfect to me!). He has a constant sticky eye so his immune system isn't perfect (possibly inherited from me); no doubt he'll have inherited all sorts of peculiarities from us and developed his own form random mutation.

And apes are pretty cute when they're babies! lol I find it difficult to look at most adults (arguably all male) and NOT see the similarity to apes!

at the climate change comment!

And I'm glad you mentioned astrology as I'd like to put that one out there too. Do any of you believe it has any basis in reality? I don't believe a jot in horoscopes however I do believe that astrology (as in describing someone's characteristics based on when they emerged into the world) has some serious credibility. To go along with this we need to consider astrology just as a timekeeping device, not attributing traits to the planets themselves so much as that their movements document the passage of time (and thus changing conditions) on our own planet.

I did scientific research into body clocks, which are governed by genes, and learnt a lot about the environment and the influence it has on our genes (look up environmental genomics if you want to know more about it). For my own animal subject we didn't know how the tidal body clock got started, whether it was genetically passed on from the mother (these are marine animals that spawn out eggs and sperm into the sea so no nourishing maternal environment!) or whether it was started by the conditions in the sea at the time of fertilisation, or metamorphosis, or some other stage. Or if it was a combination of these.

If it's not too much of a leap, think about the female human body clock and the effect it has on our personalities. The clock is set cycling by genes like all the other clocks and these genes ultimately cause the cycling of hormones. It's almost certain that our menstrual clock derived genetically form a lunar clock presumably from when our evolutionary ancestors lived in the sea still. So in the past these would've been linked to the environment, controlled by lunar changes.

Still following? If this is making any sense at all you'll begin to see that it's no great leap at all to think that the particular conditions on earth at the time of being subjected to it (i.e. birth) (the time of day, the time of the moon, the amount of sun flaring at that time, etc, all of which happen upon regular cycles that could be documented over time and thus linked to a timekeeping device such as the passage of the planets), could control certain characteristics of ours through influence on our genes via systems that use external inputs, such as body clocks.

But to predict the future with this system is nonsense!

I wonder if we should start a science club in the club room?

 

[redpoppy]

My instinct is to find al astrology as basically hogwash BUT the problem is my best friend LIVES by it. Not by horoscopes but he has an ephemeris which charts every planet in our system (plus the sun and the moon) and he's studied astrology.

Sometimes I do think he takes it WAY too far as he does LIVE by it. Literally. And so sometimes I also think he makes too much of things and ascribes meaning to events which don't QUITE sit right with me. (I now have a LOT of knowledge of what EVERY planet and house and sign represent etc.) BUT although I would like to think its complete hogwash, my natal chart is SPOOKILY accurate (as in this area of my life is lucky, this area has restriction, this area is where my sense of self and pride lie, this area is where i have love etc etc.) and sometime he'll tell me something and its so right it freaks me out.

SO now I just don't know I'd rather not believe it to be honest. I don't mind fate and I don't mind things being out of our control but the idea of astrological events effecting our lives beyond our control isn't nice for me

 

[PeanutBean]

SO now I just don't know I'd rather not believe it to be honest. I don't mind fate and I don't mind things being out of our control but the idea of astrological events effecting our lives beyond our control isn't nice for me

But they don't have to affect you, this is what I was trying to explain. The most plausible scientific explanation would be that when you were born the exact conditions of the environment shaped your personality a little. In so doing there would be an argument that people of a certain nature might be more likely to behave a certain way that could be a little bit predictable and so be used to give an idea of likely events or ways you would respond. Does that make sense? Aren't things like luck really all about personality and self-perception?

 

[redpoppy]

But they don't have to affect you, this is what I was trying to explain. The most plausible scientific explanation would be that when you were born the exact conditions of the environment shaped your personality a little. In so doing there would be an argument that people of a certain nature might be more likely to behave a certain way that could be a little bit predictable and so be used to give an idea of likely events or ways you would respond. Does that make sense? Aren't things like luck really all about personality and self-perception?

No, that's the thing, someone born a few hours or maybe even minutes away from me can have a significantly different chart. Surely that isn't explainable is it?

I understand winter babies being a certain way etc. but ... I dunno.

Although don't most biologists agree nowadays that we have no free will?

That's quite disturbing in itself and something I just CANNOT accept. I under stand the basic basis of it (either things are predetermined or they're random, either way we have no free will ) but I think there is some "x" factor (not in a simon cowell sense! God forbid! )

 

[brownhairedmom]

Ohhhhhh Pam. You don't know what you just opened up!!

As someone who has a DEEP set belief in astrology, I HATE horoscopes and the bad rep they give it!! Horoscopes are crap, astrology is solid. I have yet to meet someone who doesn't meet their astrological profile to a tee. Everyone I meet, I check our compatibility. For the most part, its correct. For the people it isn't true, they're born on a cusp!!

I'm probably going to start a ruckuss here but I think that the people who say its all bull either a) haven't studied it, b) don't want to accept their negative traits associated with the sign, or c) are scared that there is something out there that has control over their personality.

 

[brownhairedmom]

Also, what do you think of universal laws?! i.e. law of attraction

 

[Sarahkka]

I have a few things to contribute on the topic of astrology.
Someone who was a friend of a classmate of my mum's (point being someone who did not know either of my parents) drew up a chart for me when I was born, just to practise. It was very accurate.
I also think that if we accept that the moon and it's gravitational pull and it's phases have physical effects on many different species on earth, why is it such a far stretch that certain planetary alignments might not?
Again, I am not talking about daily horoscopes from the paper. It's more about certain personality traits, certain occupations or roles you might be drawn to.
It's obviously a very fuzzy area and difficult to scientifically test.

Another part of me agrees with a crazy French astronomer who gave us a spectacular tour of the night sky in the Atacama Desert in Chile. He was showing us the wonders of the universe through some very powerful telescopes and someone asked him what he thought of astrology. He said, "I am sorry, but ze stars and planets don't care about you! Zey just don't care about your leetle life!"
I thought that was pretty funny.

Yes please to a science and philosophy club!

 

[brownhairedmom]

Yes pleaseee to a science/philosophy group!!!!

 

[redpoppy]

Ohhhhhh Pam. You don't know what you just opened up!!

As someone who has a DEEP set belief in astrology, I HATE horoscopes and the bad rep they give it!! Horoscopes are crap, astrology is solid. I have yet to meet someone who doesn't meet their astrological profile to a tee. Everyone I meet, I check our compatibility. For the most part, its correct. For the people it isn't true, they're born on a cusp!!

I'm probably going to start a ruckuss here but I think that the people who say its all bull either a) haven't studied it, b) don't want to accept their negative traits associated with the sign, or c) are scared that there is something out there that has control over their personality.

OOOH! OOH! what'd your sun/moon/ascendant? where are your jupiter and saturn and do you believe in the power of transitions? I think transitions are sometimes just nothing.

Another part of me agrees with a crazy French astronomer who gave us a spectacular tour of the night sky in the Atacama Desert in Chile. He was showing us the wonders of the universe through some very powerful telescopes and someone asked him what he thought of astrology. He said, "I am sorry, but ze stars and planets don't care about you! Zey just don't care about your leetle life!"

he sounds AWESOME!!!!! I want to be like him!

As for science/philosophy: I can't think of a better combo!!!!

 

[PeanutBean]

No, that's the thing, someone born a few hours or maybe even minutes away from me can have a significantly different chart. Surely that isn't explainable is it?

I understand winter babies being a certain way etc. but ... I dunno.

Although don't most biologists agree nowadays that we have no free will?

Well if you take sunrise or the turning of the tide as an example of environmental change and it's consequences it's not difficult to appreciate how quickly the environment can change. A sunrise (or set) might alter the ambient temperature hugely or a changing tide might uncover the shore quickly especially at spring tides. There are tiny changes in the environment happening continuously. The interesting thing would be to be able to compare two babies born at the exact same time in the exact same place but of course even twins wouldn't do this!

I don't know that most biologists think that. The Dawkins set most likely do but they are not representative of the masses. Most would agree that our makeup is a combination of our genes and our environment, the latter would of course include choices made because that affects our environment. To think we had no free will would be to believe that genes are ultimate and that's really rather short sighted, especially in light of recent discoveries about environmental genomics.

I'll ask admin to move this thread to the clubs.

 

[redpoppy]

OOOH! look at us getting moved everywhere. We were in the over 18s section earlier. Which was confusing! nothing like a bit of evolutionary talk to get peeps in the mood I guess.

 

[brownhairedmom]

Ohhhhhh Pam. You don't know what you just opened up!!

As someone who has a DEEP set belief in astrology, I HATE horoscopes and the bad rep they give it!! Horoscopes are crap, astrology is solid. I have yet to meet someone who doesn't meet their astrological profile to a tee. Everyone I meet, I check our compatibility. For the most part, its correct. For the people it isn't true, they're born on a cusp!!

I'm probably going to start a ruckuss here but I think that the people who say its all bull either a) haven't studied it, b) don't want to accept their negative traits associated with the sign, or c) are scared that there is something out there that has control over their personality.

OOOH! OOH! what'd your sun/moon/ascendant? where are your jupiter and saturn and do you believe in the power of transitions? I think transitions are sometimes just nothing.

Another part of me agrees with a crazy French astronomer who gave us a spectacular tour of the night sky in the Atacama Desert in Chile. He was showing us the wonders of the universe through some very powerful telescopes and someone asked him what he thought of astrology. He said, "I am sorry, but ze stars and planets don't care about you! Zey just don't care about your leetle life!"

he sounds AWESOME!!!!! I want to be like him!

As for science/philosophy: I can't think of a better combo!!!!

I have Scorpio sun, moon in Virgo, rising in Taurus. Jupiter in Aries and Saturn in Sag!!

Quite a mix haha