Selfish...

[nov_mum]

In theory I could probably ask but in reality, not really. Bobo's cord was completely flat and crushed. They just can't tell if it has happened again until the baby is born and if it does happen again, I need to be where I can be sectioned immediately if the baby goes into distress. Honestly though, I have made my peace with all that now. However, I like that other women can take more control of their births though and feel that sense of empowerment.

I can still be a tree hugger and follow the natural path.....just not for those 24 hours when I am in labour!!!!

I had an experience where I had to have monitoring. First of all I was medically induced with a 35 week baby so monitoring was part and parcel and I was glad of that. I agreed to the induction because the team I was working with advised me that they had done everything medically possible to keep my baby growing safely inside me. Medical science is a fantastic thing that in many cases is able to prevent many unfortunate outcomes. Not many people die of preeclampsia these days where it was a death sentence not so long ago. I know my births were both medicalised as I was induced with both but if I had not been curious about outcomes with PET I would have let them persist until I needed a crash c section, which I was minutes away from having when I first was admitted but luckily I responded to the meds after about 10 minutes. If I had a section I wouldn't be upset (well aside from the fact I didn't get the birth I wanted and I was scared and cut open in a rush) I would be happy my baby and I were alive to tell the tale.

My concerns were with my second pregnancy that it was assumed by so many that I would be under specialist care given my history. If that had happened I bet I wouldn't have made it to 38 weeks. I was admitted at 34 weeks and would have been kept in on bedrest despite my bp and blood results not warranting it. After a discussion I was discharged, repeatedly hounded by out patient midwives but I got to 38 weeks which meant no NICU for baby and he was strong and healthy for a normal birth. When I had one medical condition already I really didn't want a surgical one on top of that if it could have been prevented.

I still consider myself an advocate of natural birthing as even if I do get PET again with this pregnancy, I know that I will at least understand why each and every intervention will take place. At the end of the day my baby's health and my health are my main concern but I'm not about to offer myself up to the doctors and surgeons unless it is indicated.

I hope that makes sense?? I am just saying that I aim for the best outcome for mum and bubs and when there is not a complicating picture, the least interventions are the best outcome in my book.

 

[indy and lara]

^^^ Knowledge is power. There is a common idea running through this thread that the problem is that so many women just don't know their options/ understand what different choices really are. I think this is where so many of the problems lie. I cannot understand why someone would spend 4 months researching which pram to buy, but not looking into different labouring positions/ the realities of induction ect.

Nov Mum, it is great that you managed to get to 38 weeks. But again, it shows the difference that can happen when someone understands what is happening and is empowered by this to make their choice. As I said, the problem for me is that should Emma have crushed her cord, it needed to be picked up immediately. I am fine with what we did because again, I feel I had researched it all, knew the posible outcomes and made a considered judgement.

 

[KandyKinz]

^^^ Knowledge is power. There is a common idea running through this thread that the problem is that so many women just don't know their options/ understand what different choices really are. I think this is where so many of the problems lie. I cannot understand why someone would spend 4 months researching which pram to buy, but not looking into different labouring positions/ the realities of induction ect.

I completely and utterly agree with that ^^^^ Knowledge really is everything.


It's not the interventions which are the problem. There are times when the interventions do in fact save lives and improve outcomes. The problem is when the interventions are used carelessly and they are much more likely to be used carelessly when women are not aware of the true indications for such interventions, when they don't know the risks and complications associated with those interventions and when they are not aware of any alternative options available to them.

 

[chuck]

I completely and utterly agree with that ^^^^ Knowledge really is everything.


It's not the interventions which are the problem. There are times when the interventions do in fact save lives and improve outcomes. The problem is when the interventions are used carelessly and they are much more likely to be used carelessly when women are not aware of the true indications for such interventions, when they don't know the risks and complications associated with those interventions and when they are not aware of any alternative options available to them.

This is my problem, I thought I was informed but in reality I was so naive my baby was back to back and yet I bowed to the 'wisdom' of the Dr's and allowed myself to be laid flat on my back on a monitor and stayed there for hours despite baby never showing signs of distress...no wonder he never rotated <facepalm>

The apparent need for intervention - drip to speed things along/monitor to keep an eye on baby (because we're doing unnatural things to your body) was really the need to hit targets (1cm per hour please missus cervix)!

 

[rachiedata]

This is a great thread that really shows how well informed and confident in her own decisions any individual woman can be - certainly before I started reading into home birth at about 16 weeks gone I was fairly naive, but would have told you at the time I was well informed! Sometimes it really is the things you never knew you never knew that can open up a whole world of possibilities.

It's funny a couple of you should bring up defending smoking during pregnancy, I don't smoke, never had, and if I had smoked I would have given up on finding out I was expecting. I have a colleague at work, due shortly, and when I expressed surprise to another colleague that she was still smoking quite far into her pregnancy, she defended her quite strongly, that she had cut back and was trying hard to quit. Fair enough, I says, it is her pregnancy and she is obviously trying to do best by her baby. However, I know that if I explained my plans for a home birth to this colleague, I would be called all the names under the sun! Called all kinds of irresponsible, selfish, probably told that I have no idea what birth is like and should expect the worst... I still feel, from the people I speak to, that what we plan for our births (our babys birth, our own choices), is still a bit of a taboo.

Peanut I am in the same position - a big reason I am going for home birth and hope not to have any interventions is that I have read the literature, I am a Physiology graduate and know a good study from a bad one, and it is clear to me that being at home and questioning the need to be monitored, poked and prodded will increase my chances of a straightforward labour and an experience I will be happy to remember.

 

[KandyKinz]

I completely and utterly agree with that ^^^^ Knowledge really is everything.


It's not the interventions which are the problem. There are times when the interventions do in fact save lives and improve outcomes. The problem is when the interventions are used carelessly and they are much more likely to be used carelessly when women are not aware of the true indications for such interventions, when they don't know the risks and complications associated with those interventions and when they are not aware of any alternative options available to them.

This is my problem, I thought I was informed but in reality I was so naive my baby was back to back and yet I bowed to the 'wisdom' of the Dr's and allowed myself to be laid flat on my back on a monitor and stayed there for hours despite baby never showing signs of distress...no wonder he never rotated <facepalm>

The apparent need for intervention - drip to speed things along/monitor to keep an eye on baby (because we're doing unnatural things to your body) was really the need to hit targets (1cm per hour please missus cervix)!

That's the thing.... In order to be fully informed you have to do your research prior to even stepping foot into the hospital doors. If you want a birth without the use of needless interventions you almost have to go into it knowing about almost every possible "complication" imaginable, how those "complications" should be managed, how the care providers will likely try to manage it and whether that "complication" is even a complication in the first place. Sadly, in the majority of situations the information you receive from your care providers while in the situation will likely be very very very very very very biased, potentially outdated or even inaccurate. When you listen to a care provider you're relying solely on word of mouth and that approach can often lead people astray. There's ALOT of benefit from getting the perspectives of several different people, from different care providers, from different women who experienced similar situations in their past, from different studies, etc etc. It's only when you can put all that data together that you can truly make a well informed decision regarding prenatal and intrapartum management decisions.

And that ^^^^^ is a HUGE and very difficult task!!!! I studied midwifery for a little over three years and had an active involvement in the doula/birthing community prior to that and even I don't feel no where close to being prepared enough to challenge the system and back up my choices if something "abnormal" presents itself.

 

[Breezy]

Funny that I should run across this thread today because this is something I have been thinking about for a few days now. Now, I before I say what I have to say I need to fess up and say that I will be induced on Wednesday unless my LO decides to come into this world on his own accord today or tomorrow. I chose the induction because my husband is deploying at the beginning of next month and I have no friends or family down here with me and with this being my first child, for the sanity of myself I NEED my husband here with me for a few days (20 to be exact) to get used to being a mother. Also, my MW has found my BP keeps climbing so they may have done that anyhow.

The reason I felt the need to say that is because I do feel selfish for my decision to be induced and I am torn between wanting my son to be able to bond for a few days with his father and wanting as little medical intervention as possible.

Anyways, I have always wanted to go the "natural" route. I watched a documentry called The Business of Being Born before I even got pregnant and it made a lot of sense to me. I also had friends that have had children and have been induced and their labors have been days long because they were obviously not ready at all and some ended in a c-section. When I first decided I wanted to try for a natural child birth everyone was telling me how crazy I am and how there is NO way I can say I want a natural child birth when I have never had a baby before. There is NO way I will be able to withstand the pain.

The other day I read this on a friends Facebook status:

"We girlfriends want to let you in on a secret. There is no award ceremony for Mothers after delivery. No announcements will are made over the loudspeaker; no medals are presented to those Mothers who managed to deliver their children without pain medication, without crying and without making a mess on the delivery table.First of all, few victors would emerge. Second, the other Mothers in the audience would throw their hemorrhoid pillows at the medalists. Here it is, girlfriends... epidurals are great. Cesareans can save lives and curtail unneces...sary suffering. There is no such thing as a second-class birth. Willingness to suffer or to put the baby or yourself in jeopardy, especially when you are frightened and tired, is a sign of questionable judgment, not heroism."

The above may mean different things to different people but to me, it feels like we are telling women that they are not strong enough to give birth without medical intervention. We (I use the term "we" very loosely obviously) are not empowering women to do what their bodies were MADE to do. Instead women are being scared by doctors, friends, family members, etc into thinking that they CAN NOT do it naturally. Or telling them that there is NO benefit to doing it naturally. Frankly, that appauls and saddens me.

I have NOTHING against women that opted for the epidural or any other pain management or even the women that went right into it saying from the get go that they WOULD be getting all the pain medicine they could. That is a personal choice that I need to respect. But, would these same women have that same attitude if things were presented to them in a different way? If they were told they CAN do it naturally and they CAN have a good experience? If giving birth wasn't on someone elses time??

The birth center I go to for my prenatal care is moving to a different location and therefore they have the women that have birthed there writing on the walls under a title called "If these walls could talk..." I was reading them today and one stuck out in my mind. It was:

"If these walls could talk........they would say that women are STRONG! These walls know that the women that walked these halls may have come in saying "I don't think I CAN" and left saying "I DID". Once I gave birth, I realized I can do ANYTHING."

That's really all I have to say about this subject. I just needed to get it off of my chest because I have been laying in bed thinking about it over and over again! Hope I made sense.

 

[nov_mum]

In regards to the facebook post...oh dear! That is the exact bollocks that is spouted these days "no awards given" blah blah. My award was that my 35 week baby needed no interventions and stayed with me on the ward which was the best outcome for breast feeding and bonding. Had I gone through a section he would have been in NICU without a doubt and I would have been recovering from surgery with PET. Not an ideal outcome in my book. So I say to those people that my awards run around all day and remind me of what a natural birth can achieve. I agree that comments such as the facebook posting above reiterate that women should just take the surgical route with meds and doctors as they obviously have 'questionable judgement'

 

[Bournefree]

I'm also very saddened by the facebook post. I can' only think that the person that originated it might have had quite alot of birth-baggage.

Interestingly one of the reasons induction can be offered to women, without clinical indicators, is in your situation Breezy - where a partner might be deployed in the services.
However, for me, I find it strange that our government would offer a medical treatment without indication to a women, but not offer the deployment of the partner to be delayed first? I'm unsure if this can be done. Have you and your partner asked Breezy?
Xxx

 

[PeanutBean]

That is a good point Bourne. I suppose this is an issue of paternal rights, something still slender in the UK. I suppose we're still fighting the battle of maternal rights really but I hope one day our society will confer some respect and liberty on fathers-to-be too.

In the Wesson book I was reading about the lying in period in other cultures. We have our two weeks obligatory leave from work but perhaps if our culture were more protective of new mums then the need for the father to be there would be recognised.

Gosh what a novel picture you have painted of a country that would rather subject a woman to unnecessary and potentially risky medical practice rather than allow a father to be at home at the natural time.

 

[Bournefree]

Exactly! Unfortunatly any human rights, employment rights, or discrimination laws go right out the window where the defence of our country is concerned. Though, there is always discression of senior officers. I have a friend that I did my law degree with, who was and still is in the Navy.. so I only know a little about this, but what I do know, is that it is a whole different set of laws from those afforded to the general population; which why I'm very interested to know if Breezy and her partner have asked. It would certainly depend on how crucial his role is within the services.
XxX

 

[canadabear]

^^^ Knowledge is power. There is a common idea running through this thread that the problem is that so many women just don't know their options/ understand what different choices really are. I think this is where so many of the problems lie. I cannot understand why someone would spend 4 months researching which pram to buy, but not looking into different labouring positions/ the realities of induction ect.

YES!! This is exactly what I was thinking when I was reading through a lot of the threads on BNB! I find it so shocking that so many people, obviously with internet access, post threads/comments without doing approx. 5 mins of research. I think it is wonderful to post questions, concerns, ask for assistance, moral support etc.. but I also think it is so empowering to do some research and find out the answers that are out there!
And I DO spend time researching prams, cloth diapers (HOURS AND HOURS OF RESEARCH ), clothing, parenting ideas/opinions, breastfeeding, etc etc. To me it is all part of becoming a parent. And the major beginning of that is the pregnancy and labour!

On a less ranting note: I am living in Spain and my pregnancy is completely MW lead. You do not see a doctor here unless you have complications or you choose to pay for private care. In private care you are only taken care of by DR.. no MW.. and the chances of having a c-section are very high! In Spain, you only get 3 scans.. one per trimester (unless you have complications). They usually leave you to it, provide info and monthly checkups for weight, bp etc. It is treated as a natural process not a medical condition.
That being said.. they don't really do a lot of homebirths and I have gone with the flow in terms of giving birth in a hospital. Just one of the things I have had to change about my original wishes on giving birth.. but I do trust in the MW and the system here is much less medicalized than in Canada.

Sorry for the long post..

 

[KandyKinz]

Gosh what a novel picture you have painted of a country that would rather subject a woman to unnecessary and potentially risky medical practice rather than allow a father to be at home at the natural time.

What an absolutely lovely concept!!!!!! Why the hell didn't I think of that

I am residing by a very large military establishment and when I did my hospital placement here on L&D 90% of the inductions were done between 37 <<<<GASP>>>> and 39 weeks for "social" purposes or in other words moms wanting their partners to be present for the first week postpartum or atleast for the birth I got to scrub into alot of sections for labour dystocias that placement.....

Anyways, as much as I am against unnecessary interventions, the requests of these woman are in fact very understandable in my mind and it's completely and totally unfair that these women are being placed in a situation where they have to choose between having support and optimizing the outcome of the birth. It's truly sad.

Implementing a system in which men have paternal rights to be able to stay in their community with their partners during the period of time in which a woman is likely to give birth AND definitly postpartum is really the only solution. It's just sad when a woman comes in and says that her husband is coming back from overseas for just two weeks at term and that she needs to have her baby at the beginning of those two weeks in order for her to have support afterwards... And sadly for alot of these women their partner really is their only support. They're being moved all over the place every couple of years, they continuously losing contacts with family and friends as a result (I used to be an army brat... I know). From a psycho social perspective the effects that this can have on a new mother is just terrible. Under normal circumstances birth shouldn't have to be planned and parents (both of them) have the right to be there in the early days postpartum. Being at home, even if still working, for 2 or 3 months at term and the suspected postpartum is certainly not an unreasonable request and delaying deployment is certainly not the end of the world especially since there are several other men who are fully able to take their place at that time.

 

[PeanutBean]

Can I just say that I am LOVING this thread? I had no idea it would turn out this way. This really is the thinking-woman's section.

 

[Bournefree]

Removed by poster

 

[aob1013]

What exactly is selfish about getting the birth you want?!

 

[Bournefree]

^^^ I can't tell if your asking seriously or being retorical? ;-)

 

[aob1013]

Both

 

[Bournefree]

Haahaahaa! Well it's quite hard for ME to argue the other side of the coin, but I'll give it a shot:

A few people, mostly women who have had a bad birthing experience, would and have said. "you are being a Marta", " you are putting your babies life at risk, by not going with medical convention", "how far will you take your rights to birth as you wish? will you only be happy if your baby dies.. but at least you said you went for a natural birth", "my baby would have died, if I wasn't in hospital, and I can't believe that you would want to risk it", "oh you are brave.. what will you do if X, Y and Z, happens?", "the doctors know best, what makes you think you're so special?".. I could go on.. But it is always a horribly mal-formed argument.

As the ladies have shown here, we are informed, we are aware, we are grateful there are medical procedures there if we need them - but it is still our choice.
Xxx

 

[pimento1979]

Canadabear - If you are still thinking of homebirth as an option, and I don't know if it varies by region, but Pimento1979 booked a homebirth in Spain.
She transfered just before the birth.. here is her birth story. I don't think she would mind me pointing you towards it, or if you got in contact to ask how it was arranged. https://www.babyandbump.com/home-natural-birthing/522235-my-birth-story-arrival-eva.html
Xxx

Sorry, but my birth was in the UK xx