Sleep Sense Support Group!

[Poppy7]

Well done HG and Polo what great nights you both had.

Mine wasn't as bad as I expected....

We put Elliott to bed at 7ish and he woke at 10pm crying. He sounded absolutely terrible and was inconsolable. We bought him downstairs (we never do this) to check him over, chill him out and call NHS Direct.

We took him back up to bed with us at 11.30pm and put him in his cot and he was asleep by midnight. He woke at 3am crying so I reassured him but did not pick him up. He was asleep again within 10-15 mins. He then woke again at 4.45am where I fed him and resettled him. He then slept through until 7.45am

This morning he's chirpy but still sounding rough. He wanted to share breakfast with me which was positive. First nap of the day was a struggle but after some Nurofen and a calming bf he settled down and is now sleeping.xx

 

[history_girls]

Poppy - not too bad then? Hope he is back to his normal self soon. They just don't understand what is wrong with themselves.

MissT - I remember now what I wanted to say last night re naps. I found it almost as important to have a nap routine as a bedtime routine. This way LO knows what is coming.

 

[PieMistress]

Morning All!

Well, Kyle didn't have a good night (after his good day at the wedding). He woke up howling at 1am, so much so we gave him Calpol as he's been teething on and off all week and had been dribbling all day and this calmed him down. The crying was very different to his 'i've woken up and i'm hungry/can't get back to sleep cry'. OH and I were quite stressed !!! We had cuddles and a feed then he went back to sleep until 5.30am when he woke up and gurgled quite happily.

These early wakenings though are getting more and more frequent (between 5am and 6am). I don't mind starting the day at 6am but anything earlier is a killer but I'm not sure of what I can do to prevent them. When he is up early he seems very wide awake and gurlges quite happily and doesn't cry at this time. If I do feed him and get him back to sleep then I know that he won't feed very well at all when he does get up for the day a short while later.

Any tips? Is it common for babies to get up for the day so early? (The room is totally dark). In addition with an early wakening means more nap time is needed during the day! He's already on his 2nd nap!

Just wondering too, at what age can babies start to stay awake a bit longer during the day before needing a nap? Kyle is just over 4 months and can manage 2hrs at the moment?

I have 'sleeping through the night' sleep envy at the moment!!! xx

 

[Xanthe]

Can I please ask the title and authour of the book? I've looked up Sleepsense on Amazon and there's 2 different ones listed.

Thanks
XXX

 

[MissTanya]

Hey again,
I hope you don't mind me bombarding you lot with questions!!!

I have just read the sleep sense program by Dana and note that what she suggests if VERY similar - almost the same approach to what we had tried earlier this week with our 9 week old (which I had labeled as Controlled Crying).

Do you think my 9 week old is too young to begin this program???? I note her book says 3 months old OR 13 pounds....he is currently 12 pounds.

If you remember, I am having a nightmare getting him down of an evening and it is a 5hour battle of him falling asleep on us then waking and crying a few minutes after we lay him in his cot.

Earlier this week, we tried controlled crying...or what I can now say is sleep sense after reading the program, and the first night it took him 4 hrs to go to sleep. The second night 1hr 45min, the third 45mins. But there was ALOT of crying !! And even picking him up does not calm him. On the fourth night it all fell apart and took 4 hrs again - in the end I let him fall asleep on me and he finally stayed down.

I didn't try it again last night as I decided to look further into sleep sense instead, which I've been reading up on this morning. Last night we were back to our 5hr battle and hubby and I are both getting to wits end!

I note Dana says on average it will take 45min for a baby to fall alseep but the worst case she had was 2 hours. I am a bit scared of trying it again because I don't like the idea of my bubs going through 4 hours again.

What do you suggest? Should we start again and make sure we stay consistent - or to you think he is too young? Do you have any other suggestions of what we could try? He does self-settle perfectly well on his own in the middle of the night and for his morning/lunch naps. For some reason, he just does not want to go down of an evening

 

[cutie4evr01]

How are bedtimes going?

Bedtimes and overnight have been going fabulously! Our first night (Friday), she whined for 10 minutes and cried for 10 minutes and then was fast asleep. She woke twice for feeds, and both times I put her down wide awake and she chatted herself to sleep within 20 minutes. Then yesterdays naps were very difficult - that's why I posted asking about naps. But then last night again was very easy - she went right off to sleep on her own initially and after both night feedings. This morning she just went for her first nap and only cried for 10 minutes, then talked for a few, so I'm really hoping today's naps won't be as traumatic (for me) as yesterday.

One more question for you ladies - in the morning (7am today, usually more like 5:30am), she was just talking and we went ahead and got her out of her crib for the day. Do you usually wait until your LO is crying to get out to start the day, or start the day at a set time like this?

Thank you all for your advice and support!

 

[cutie4evr01]

Poppy I think it's fine to give extra cuddles/love while he's feel bad - I think they need extra comfort in times of sickness. Glad to hear his night last night was a little better. I'm so glad to hear of the LOs who are sleeping through the night fabulously.

MissT, I'm very new to all of this, but if pickup, put down seems to be making things worse for your LO, I think CC probably is ok, as long as you are checking in on him often or even staying to sit beside his crib. I thought the 13lb rule was for when babies were physically able to sleep through the night. I think as long as you know he probably is too young/lightweight to sleep through, so you get up to feed him in the night rather than letting him cry back to sleep, it probably is fine. I'm sure some of these experts will be able to offer more advice.

PM, Christina only manages about 1.5 hours before needing another nap - she's just at 4 months. I thought they started having 3-hr daytime awake periods around 6 months, but I'm not sure.

 

[cutie4evr01]

Can I please ask the title and authour of the book? I've looked up Sleepsense on Amazon and there's 2 different ones listed.

Thanks
XXX

Dana Obleman - there is an online site with all the info and you can buy the book: www.sleepsense.net

 

[Foogirl]

Any tips? Is it common for babies to get up for the day so early? (The room is totally dark). In addition with an early wakening means more nap time is needed during the day! He's already on his 2nd nap!

Decide what time you want the day to start. If he wakes at 5.30 and gurgles happily in his cot, leave him to it. If he wakes and is fractious, treat it as a night wakening and follow the process for that. It may take a week or two but he should get the message and sleep later. If not, you might just have to accept your day is going to start early for a while!

Just wondering too, at what age can babies start to stay awake a bit longer during the day before needing a nap? Kyle is just over 4 months and can manage 2hrs at the moment?

Lucky you! At a year, Abby is still only on 90 minutes. I dream of 2 hours! 2hours at 4 months doesn't seem unreasonable but I'm not sure I'd want them to be up much longer. I think every baby is different, just watch when he gets sleepy and put him down for a nap.

Hey again,
Do you think my 9 week old is too young to begin this program???? I note her book says 3 months old OR 13 pounds....he is currently 12 pounds.

This is only if you are looking to encourage your baby to sleep through the night. There is a section on how to deal with 0-3 months, the main difference being it suggests pick up/put down. It also talks about night feeds and how best to approach it.

I note Dana says on average it will take 45min for a baby to fall alseep but the worst case she had was 2 hours. I am a bit scared of trying it again because I don't like the idea of my bubs going through 4 hours again.

2 hours is better than 4. And certainly 2 hours for a couple of nights is better than and endless period of not knowing how long it will take and him not sleeping properly. We were 90 minutes the first night. 45 the second and about 20 minutes the third night. But we stuck rigidly to the programme and didn't give in. Try it, he might suprise you and do better than you think. Especially as he obviously does know how to self settle.

 

[MissTanya]

MissT, I'm very new to all of this, but if pickup, put down seems to be making things worse for your LO, I think CC probably is ok, as long as you are checking in on him often or even staying to sit beside his crib. I thought the 13lb rule was for when babies were physically able to sleep through the night. I think as long as you know he probably is too young/lightweight to sleep through, so you get up to feed him in the night rather than letting him cry back to sleep, it probably is fine. I'm sure some of these experts will be able to offer more advice.

Thanks. I certainly don't expect him to go through the night, so I guess it is okay for me to begin/try again! Yay! While I dread the evenings, it is nice to have a plan of action.

So leting him fuss & cry in his cot until he falls asleep while trying (unsuccessfully) to comfort him is okay?? Even if he does that for 4 hours?? And even if he is only 9 weeks old?

 

[MissTanya]

I note Dana says on average it will take 45min for a baby to fall alseep but the worst case she had was 2 hours. I am a bit scared of trying it again because I don't like the idea of my bubs going through 4 hours again.

2 hours is better than 4. And certainly 2 hours for a couple of nights is better than and endless period of not knowing how long it will take and him not sleeping properly. We were 90 minutes the first night. 45 the second and about 20 minutes the third night. But we stuck rigidly to the programme and didn't give in. Try it, he might suprise you and do better than you think. Especially as he obviously does know how to self settle.[/QUOTE]

I am all for doing whatever it takes to get him to learn to settle in the evenings. If it takes 4 hours of fussing/crying on his behalf and four hours of me by his cot trying (unsuccessfully) to comfort him - I am happy to stick it out again, but as long as it is okay to be doing at his age??? I thought I was doing the right thing at the start of the week, but others tell me it is cruel to let him be upset for that long??

If only there were straight black & white answers huh! LOL. It would make things so much easier

 

[Poppy7]

Poppy I think it's fine to give extra cuddles/love while he's feel bad - I think they need extra comfort in times of sickness. *Glad to hear his night last night was a little better.

I completely agree cutie. He's being very snuggly and clingy so the cuddle bar is open all hours at the moment

 

[Bumpontherun]

Hi all

Not been on for a bit, so much to catch up on..........

HG - my dogs also do the flappy ear thing, it drives me insane, wakes me up most nights. Tiggy is now in double disgrace for going into H's room whilst she was settling night before last! I forgot to shut the stair gate, heard a creak on the monitor, went to investigate and there was Tiggy looking in the bars of the cot

TG I have major sleep envy and weaning envy, glad it's going so well for you.

Polo P

PM - I hadn't realised our LO's were so close in age! Helen is 15 days older than Kyle. The 1st tooth came through about a week ago I think. I'm impressed you braved a wedding with him, their behaviours sound quite similar but Helen hasn't found her feet yet

Poppy sounds like you guys have had a tough time. Hope Elliot is feeling better today and well done for keeping going.

Tanya - I trawled through the whole thread on babyclub last night I wanted to reply but it got closed. Hope you are o.k. To me 4 hours seems like a very long time. H wasn't going 4 hours between feeds at that point. But I think the book does say that at night you wait until they fall asleep however long that may be. I reckon it probably won't be four hours this time as you have already started the process. We found with Helen that actually she takes longer to settle when we stay in the room. She hates being picked up and shhh, patting, sroking, singing has no impact. We only discovered this accidentally during a screaming seesion where OH left the room to answer the phone and she promptly fell asleep. Now I generally just leave her if she is doing her usual grumbly cry but go in if it sounds like she is getting more upset. We have also decided that 1 hr 10 is too long for naps and we now abort nap attempts after 30 mins of crying (only happened twice in 2 weeks so far). The whole CC/CIO debate is so difficult, I hate that we have come to a method that involves crying but I had got to the stage where I was not a good mum during the day because I was so exhausted, my and DH were constantly sniping at each other and I was really quite depressed. My DH is a child psychiatrist and one of my best friends is a child psychologist and neither of them know of any robust research that indicates long lasting damage from these methods. Certainly Helen has acutally been happier since we started SS even though she is currently crying more than she did before. What is obvious from reading this thread is that all the mums on here love their babies so much and truly want what's best for them


We had our worst night for a long time last night. She went to sleep with only a few mins grumbling at 7;30 and woke for a feed at 2:30, unfortunately we had visitors and I'd stayed up til 2 after her feed she just wouldn't settle, crying on and off, I eventually got back to bed at 4. She woke at 5 took a quick feed but then cried so hard when I put her down that I couldn't leave her I gave her calpol and took her to bed with us (I know, really bad) and she slept until half 8, it was actually really lovely but I felt so guilty. Then DH took her while I slept a bit more. We had to abort the next nap attempt as she just got soooo upset but went off really quickly for her lunchtime nap. (although only 30 mins) She's not long down for her disco nap. It took 20mins but it was very off and on crying and she was more angry than upset.

She's still teething really badly so my plan tonight is calpol before bed and then another dose before the early morning feed as I really think it is her teeth that are holding her back froms sleeping. Please keep your fingers crossed for me, I really need some sleep and so does my poor baby.

On a positive note we were at a friend for lunch yesterday and she commented that of all her friends who have babies (and all her friends have babies!!) we were the first couple she had seen sit at the table together and eat with the baby rather than one parent having to be away from the table. I felt really proud of how relaxed and cheery my wee girl is

Sorry longest post ever

 

[Foogirl]

She's not long down for her disco nap. It took 20mins but it was very off and on crying and she was more angry than upset.

Disco nap?

So leting him fuss & cry in his cot until he falls asleep while trying (unsuccessfully) to comfort him is okay?? Even if he does that for 4 hours?? And even if he is only 9 weeks old?

Although I don't think it would be harmful, I think letting him cry for 4 hours is probably going to be counter productive.

I would suggest following sleepsense, exactly to the letter for babies 0-3 for a couple of nights and see how it goes. Try using pick up and put down, just be aware that you might be constantly picking up and putting down for what seems like an eternity at first, but it will provide comfort (and will certainly be easier for you than not being able to give comfort at all!)

I read on an Australian website about the patting technique. Face your baby away from you, lying down with one hand on their shoulder and another on their bum and pat rhythmically (it helps to sing a song whilst doing it). You can double pat (shoulder/bum) alternately too. It worked brilliantly for Abby. I think it is because they can only concentrate on one or two things at a time. https://raisingchildren.net.au/articles/patting_settling_technique.html/context/610 That site actually has a bunch of other stuff that's really interesting too!

We also learned about "comfort holding" in the NNICU. As we weren't able to lift Abby from the incubator, we were shown how to comfort them lying down. Place one hand on their head and one on their bum with a firm touch (but obviously not too hard). It worked well for Abby, even when we got her home and beyond. However, whether it is effective for full termers, I have no idea!

 

[Bumpontherun]

She's not long down for her disco nap. It took 20mins but it was very off and on crying and she was more angry than upset.

Disco nap?

My friend sometimes has a late afternoon nap before nights out which she refers to as a disco nap. We always call Helen's pre bath nap her disco nap

 

[Foogirl]

My friend sometimes has a late afternoon nap before nights out which she refers to as a disco nap. We always call Helen's pre bath nap her disco nap

Love it! We always called it a power zizz when we napped before a night out.

 

[TennisGal]

Ladiiiiess!!

Poppy - glad things are better with Elliot. How is he now? Big I always go with what DD wants if she's had a teething flare up, or such like. Lots of snoozing together and cuddles.

Pie - DD has started waking for a feed a 5am, and rather than us getting up with her...as FG suggested, we re-settled her. She's (finger crossed) been sleeping then until about 7am. Previously we'd all be up, and she would be getting a wee bit grumpy quite quickly! Hope you have a better night tonight

Cutie - glad to hear things are going well! We tend to go with the flow on the start of the day. If DD is just having a chat, she tends to have a little snooze pretty soon afterwards...if she's really wide awake, we get up. We've been resettling her after her early morning feed recently, and so far (fingers crossed) she's been sleeping for a wee bit longer

Tanya - like Bump, we stop naps if DD isn't settled within about 20 mins...however, we did start SS later...and at the point where we could all (inc DD!) barely move because none of us were sleeping well! DD has never liked PU/PD - how is your LO with you just whispering to him? Stroking him? Shush pat?

Bump - first of all, FAB on your DD being at the table and so cheerful Secondly, big for the teething...I really hope you all have a better night tonight. DD hasn't got any teeth yet, but she has flare-ups...during that time, we just go with what she needs...it's hard, isn't it? You just wish that you could have the pain for them

I love disco nap!!

Polo - great sleeping!!

FG - Hope all well with you!

HG - Glad to hear you had a good night. Aren't those nappies delightful with solids?!

Well, with us - naps seem to be out of the window at the moment. Not just in the cot - anywhere! DD is not interested in napping on me, in her cot, on DH, in her seat...anywhere! However, she's sleeping v.well at night (hope it continues...!) and waking for an early morning feed...and then re-settling until brekkie.

She had lunch with the family at the table today (we were out) and I was really pleased...she did so well!! Bread, veggies and fruit. I tried to 'force' her to have a BF (well, just kept offering) but she's really into having four at the moment. She does seem to feed very well at those four - but I had to have a bit of a fret (no change!)

I had quarter of a glass of wine - literally two mouthfuls - and it went to my head

 

[cutie4evr01]

TG, so glad to hear lunch went well for you, and sorry to hear naps aren't going so well. Glad to hear it's not interfering with good nighttime sleep though!

Our naps today started out terrific - first one took 10 minutes of crying and 10 minutes of talking (nap lasted 1 hr), second and third naps only took 10 minutes total - part crying, part moaning (each only lasted 30 mins though), but I tried to put her for one last nap around 3:20 this afternoon and she cried on and off for one whole hour!! So I totally broke down and gave in and picked her up and decided we'll just try to get her to bed early instead. DH is up giving her a bath right now (it's 5:13 here), so I'm hoping she'll just go to bed by 5:30-6, instead of her normal bedtime of 6:30-7. I'm praying she doesn't cry for an hour again because I think I will have a breakdown if she does.

I feel a little guilty trying to train her to sleep as I really didn't mind rocking her to sleep and I don't feel like I'm so sleep-deprived I'm not being a good mom. Most posts I read have said people use sleep training as a last resort once the poor sleep habits are interfereing with the child/family happiness. And I don't feel like her sleep habits are - she's very happy and so are DH and I. Really we're just doing this since the pediatrician said it's best for her to know how to self-settle for the future, and she said it's easiest to do it now. I guess in my head I know it's good for her, but in my heart it hurts since we didn't really have any problems (yet). It has been going really well for the two nights we've tried, but the daytime naps are really doing a number on my psyche. Also today is Mother's Day here, so I feel like a crap mom when I just sat for one hour beside my baby's crib while she cried off and on. Anyone else, or am I just oversensitive?

 

[Foogirl]

but I tried to put her for one last nap around 3:20 this afternoon and she cried on and off for one whole hour!! So I totally broke down and gave in and picked her up and decided we'll just try to get her to bed early instead.

We always found the last nap of the day was the worst one. Her bedtimes ranged from 5.30 to 8.30 in those days, as sometimes it was 5pm before she was having a nap. It will get better.

I feel a little guilty trying to train her to sleep as I really didn't mind rocking her to sleep and I don't feel like I'm so sleep-deprived I'm not being a good mom. Most posts I read have said people use sleep training as a last resort once the poor sleep habits are interfereing with the child/family happiness. .... Anyone else, or am I just oversensitive?

Yep oversensitive - but understandably so. It is hard work, physically and emotionally and when you are myred in the process, it is hard to be objective.

We didn't sleep train because Abby's sleeping habits were bad. She was actually a very good napper before we started. And she had already started doing longer stretches at night. Anything from 6-9 hours. She had been self settling very well, having learned in the NNICU. We weren't sleep deprived or anything, our only problem was bedtime. We couldn't really get her to settle properly and I was feeding her to sleep. It was beginning to become an issue because she expected it and I knew it wasn't a habit I wanted to get her into. Plus she was starting to wake as we put her down and that led to an hour or so of us trying to settle her to sleep. But it really wasn't affecting us badly at all, give or take the odd night of crying. On starting sleepsense, her nighttime sleep became more prolonged more often but her naps just went completely out the window and we had a struggle to get her back into a decent length nap with no tears, but it did happen.

Of course you don't mind rocking her to sleep, but it brings to mind the image I have of my best friend doing the same with her two year old when they visited. She hasn't had a full night's sleep since he was born and relies on her totally for sleeping and naps. You can continue to rock her, however, at what point will you expect her to do it on her own? And how is she going to learn that because she won't magically work it out for herself. I reasoned that I would rather go through it when she was 4 months than wait until she was able to sit, roll or stand - or worse, walk out of a toddler bed. That way there were fewer problems for us to have to deal with.

Just remind yourself you are teaching her a valuable skill, and giving her great sleeping habits and it really won't take that long to do.

FG - Hope all well with you!

Generally going well. But her naps have started getting shorter. I think she's ready for fewer of them but is still tired after 90 minutes. We're going to move on to a proper routine and I'm going to keep her up for 2 hours and see how it goes.

Nightimes are still going swimmingly though - except tonight she has just woken in a right tizzy and any thoughts of settling her down without lifting her went right out the window. She was very, very windy and her teeth are bothering her I think. She gave me a proper "coooree in" cuddle and looked so miserable, poor wee thing. But after about 20 minutes she went back down ok. I do love having some bonus cuddles at nighttime when she wakes, although it happens rarely. I do like that about SS though. I know now when she is awake and crying, there is a problem. We tend not to wait the ten minutes now as she is so good at going back to sleep when she wakes, we know it wont make a difference.

I did have a giggle though when I said she was very windy, Mr Foo said "I wonder......could it be because I gave her a spoon of fromage frais" (she's had a dairy intolerance and the dietitian said to try her with it from time to time to see if it subsides, we haven't done it yet but got some and had planned to) Typical that he would go ahead and do it but forget to mention it to me I'm glad he was here as I wouldn't have known what was .bothering her! It might have been worth mentioning as I gave her some yorkshire pudding tonight thinking "there's milk in that, that's just the same as trying the fromage frais"

 

[cutie4evr01]

Thanks for the encouragement Foogirl. I put her down for bed awake at 5:45 and have not heard not a peep, so I'm pretty sure she's down for the night. It's amazing how much easier the nights have been compared with naps. I understand your point about rocking her to sleep, as I just called one of my friends who I really thought would have done sleep training to get a little support, only to find that she still rocks her 18-month old to sleep for her nap and bedtime, and has her babysitter do the same! I definitely don't want to be in that position.

So sorry to hear about Abby's wind. How wonderful it is to be at the point where any crying in the night means something is definitely wrong and you can pick her up for a cuddle without worrying about undoing all your hard work!