sorry a touchy subject but what do you think of euthanasia?

[Blah11]

Euthanasia confuses me a little...is agreeing to have a loved ones life support machine switched off counted as Euthanasia?

No. Thats just not prolonging life, not ending it.

 

[Rhi_Rhi1]

i believed it was implied... my mistake x

 

[Eternal]

It is a difficult one. Ive been a nurse and seen it from many persepectives. For the most part I think no, i dont agree with it, esp the way the OP presented it, it def should NOT be left up to the relatives.

I dont agree with doctors extending lives and causing suffering when there is no hope, i have nursed so many people who have ended up being PEG (tube) fed, having huge bed sores, in massive amounts of pain and really unaware of who is who and why we keep inflicting pain on them, I often thought, the kinder thing is just to let them go, rather than performing more and more interventions.

Secondly, I ended uo being involved in a case where someone had gone to Sweden for euthanatisa (where its legal) and the police got involved. I forget what he had as i was just a student back then, he had all his "wits" about him, he knew what he wanted, but he had no control over his body, he was permentley in a wheelchair, his wife his carer along with caring for 4 children.

he couldnt move anything, he couldnt swollow and would frequently start chocking, he was terrified of his wife even leaving the room as he would start drowning on his own spit and couldnt swollow. It was terrible. We all knew he wanted to end it, we obviously expressed no opioions on it, but he did make it clear he wanted to die. He couldnt have done it himself, so at his wishes his wife took him to Sweden and ended it. I dont personally see the problem. I dont really agree with Suicide, but in the same situation I would have wanted it myself, but I am not sure i would have wanted my family to have that responsibility.

As for being just killing themsleves, for the most part its people who know they are going to get worse and are happy to live their lives to the fullest until they are no longer able, at which point they want to end it (most cases due to pain, suffering and burdens on family) but when they are that point they cant physically do it themselves.

I have always sat on the fence with regards ethuanaisa, because i dont agree with anyone ending their lives pre-maturally, but having seen the other side, i am sure i wouldnt want to live like that. My husband knows not to preserve my life, esp when there is little hope.

The other problem is we sort of do practice it, with the theraputic doses of morphine, when someone is dying anyway, very often we use huge doses of morphine to control the pain, knowing fully well that those doses will kill the patient, once huge doses are give respiration slows down and the pateient evetually passes. However thats the case with Cancer patients, and people feel that its unfair that cancer pateints get that sort of therapy whereas other conditions dont.

Where it is legal its only carried out when conditions are terminal and end stage.

As for being on life support, thats not classed as euthanisia, euthansia is an active action, doing something with the intention of killing someone, whereas switching off life support is different, i cant explain is very well, but doing something to not perserive life like switching off life support or not resusuating someone isnt an active action. Hope that makes sense.

So I sit on the fense, but I can see why some people do it, but i hope im never in that situation to inflict on someone or have to do it for someone. I also feel that is very open to abuse and that its safer for it to be illegal than to make it legal.

 

[Rhi_Rhi1]

good post !

 

[Eternal]

Who said that it did? The situation you are meaning are reallllllllllllllllllly rare and i doubt it would happen much

what situation is rare?

 

[truly_blessed]

My dad fell ill on 5th June this year. He was 77 and had lived on his own for 11 years. he was still mobile but had started to struggle upstairs and remembering things. he also had a quadruple heat bypass 15 years ago.

He loved to walk everywhere but couldn't get out of bed for a week and I had to acll an ambulance on 10th June. He was admitted to hospital for 5 weeks where I watched him slowly forget how to dress, toilet, walk, all the things we take for granted. He also stopped eating and lost so much weight. He was finally discharged to a care home but within a week was back in hospital with a massive facial swelling and breathign difficulties.

I ws informed on that day that he would not make it, that was in resucuss. I went home to get some rest and rang the next day to be told he had been moved to the cardiac ward. They got him realtively well again and the swelling went down but he was now refusing to eat anything and blocked all attempts at providing him any medication including heart monitoring and antibiotics.

He continued like this for another 5 weeks, sometime accepting medication, most of the time not, always refusing to eat and made a motion of cutting his throat to the nurse several times and said '1 week ' to them. This was after about 2 weeks of being back in hospital. The hospital had a duty of care to provide medical care to him and attempt to cure him by whatever means. They had a daily, hourly battle with him to administer drips and tablets.

On 21st Aug he refused to drink even water and started to deteriorate even further the following day. His mouth was black inside, heis tongue ws swollen but he would not let the nurse near him. He hadn't been able to talk for a few days.

It was heartbreaking for me to see him go downhill so quickly but, I knew, after the first 5 weeks in hospital he had had enough and just wanted to go. When he was readmitted, it was just a matter of time but those 5 weeks seemed like forever.

I'm sure if he could have taken a tablet that would have ended it all for him, he would have done. He used to tell me to go away and not bother about him.

Mercifully on 23rd August, the hospital decided that they no longer needed to treat him and put him on the pathway to dying, which meant they would keep him comfortable and safe and clean but would no longer intervene to prolong his life.

He passed away on the evening of 24th August and, as devastated as I was, I was also relieved that he was finally at peace. His death certificate stated end stage dementia. Looking back some of this was evident but none of the nurse had diagnosed this in all the time he was in hospital.

I wouldn't have been able to make the decision if it was upto me but I do believe he should have been given the option to go when he was ready and not prolong things.

 

[Blah11]

Who said that it did? The situation you are meaning are reallllllllllllllllllly rare and i doubt it would happen much

what situation is rare?

I guessed rhi rhi was referring to people with diseases, motor neurons etc. They're not that common compared with other terminal diseases (cancer copd end stage heart and.renal failure etc).

 

[Eternal]

My dad fell ill on 5th June this year. He was 77 and had lived on his own for 11 years. he was still mobile but had started to struggle upstairs and remembering things. he also had a quadruple heat bypass 15 years ago.

He loved to walk everywhere but couldn't get out of bed for a week and I had to acll an ambulance on 10th June. He was admitted to hospital for 5 weeks where I watched him slowly forget how to dress, toilet, walk, all the things we take for granted. He also stopped eating and lost so much weight. He was finally discharged to a care home but within a week was back in hospital with a massive facial swelling and breathign difficulties.

I ws informed on that day that he would not make it, that was in resucuss. I went home to get some rest and rang the next day to be told he had been moved to the cardiac ward. They got him realtively well again and the swelling went down but he was now refusing to eat anything and blocked all attempts at providing him any medication including heart monitoring and antibiotics.

He continued like this for another 5 weeks, sometime accepting medication, most of the time not, always refusing to eat and made a motion of cutting his throat to the nurse several times and said '1 week ' to them. This was after about 2 weeks of being back in hospital. The hospital had a duty of care to provide medical care to him and attempt to cure him by whatever means. They had a daily, hourly battle with him to administer drips and tablets.

On 21st Aug he refused to drink even water and started to deteriorate even further the following day. His mouth was black inside, heis tongue ws swollen but he would not let the nurse near him. He hadn't been able to talk for a few days.

It was heartbreaking for me to see him go downhill so quickly but, I knew, after the first 5 weeks in hospital he had had enough and just wanted to go. When he was readmitted, it was just a matter of time but those 5 weeks seemed like forever.

I'm sure if he could have taken a tablet that would have ended it all for him, he would have done. He used to tell me to go away and not bother about him.

Mercifully on 23rd August, the hospital decided that they no longer needed to treat him and put him on the pathway to dying, which meant they would keep him comfortable and safe and clean but would no longer intervene to prolong his life.

He passed away on the evening of 24th August and, as devastated as I was, I was also relieved that he was finally at peace. His death certificate stated end stage dementia. Looking back some of this was evident but none of the nurse had diagnosed this in all the time he was in hospital.

I wouldn't have been able to make the decision if it was upto me but I do believe he should have been given the option to go when he was ready and not prolong things.

So sorry to hear about your dad

 

[Eternal]

Who said that it did? The situation you are meaning are reallllllllllllllllllly rare and i doubt it would happen much

what situation is rare?

I guessed rhi rhi was referring to people with diseases, motor neurons etc. They're not that common compared with other terminal diseases (cancer copd end stage heart and.renal failure etc).

yeah, they are the situations i was reffering to too. They are much rarer compared to the biggest killers you mention, but arnt actually uncommon. people often are diagnoised with things that they know will evetually lead to slow painful deaths or very confusied and scared ends, things like as you say Motor neurons, but also MS, huntingtons, dementia, altizhiems, cycstic fibroses, HIV.

I think the thing is in most cases people live ok, some have little or no problems until nearer the end and some even though they do have symptoms they can function ok. A lot of these people hope for cures, trail drugs, etc, or will actually end up dying from something un-related. But I think people like to know that they can live their lives while they have it and start deterioating, but when it gets to a point where they cant function at all, that someone will end it before they start suffering. At least thats how i understand it from people I have seen or nursed.

But then I also know people in those situations who would be very upset and offending by the idea of euthinasia, so actually people who have those conditions and are of the idea of ending it pre-maturally are probably fairly rare.

 

[Blah11]

Sorry I meant 'sound of mind but not in body' and not able to commynicate. And when they're that poorly they're on huge amounts of drugs, how can we be sure they're not just saying they want to die cos they're so heavily medicated?

 

[v2007]

Euthanasia confuses me a little...is agreeing to have a loved ones life support machine switched off counted as Euthanasia?

No, machines are only turned off when there is no chance of a meaningful recovery ie total brain failure.

V xxx

 

[Eternal]

Sorry I meant 'sound of mind but not in body' and not able to commynicate. And when they're that poorly they're on huge amounts of drugs, how can we be sure they're not just saying they want to die cos they're so heavily medicated?

sorry, i misunderstood, i 100% agree, i dont think that decision can be made unless its made beforehand when they are documented of being of sound mind.

I agree though, when someone has been "comprised" by drugs, pain or just the condition, its too difficult to know what they would have done before hand, and thats when the situation is open to abuse.

OP- You may want this to be moved to the debates section.

 

[nikkip75]

I think if it was done in a clinic like the one in Switzerland (think that's where it is anyway) were they are offered counselling, it's all set up with videos, consent forms, even the police investigate each death then yes I agree with it.

There was the rugby player a few years back who was paralysed from the neck down. He went from being a young athletic man to sitting in a chair or lying in a bed being tube fed with breathing tubes for the rest of his life. He decided himself to go to the clinic and end his life. I agree he should have been allowed to make this decision for himself.

Although theres then situations were someone with have an illness like Alzheimer's and know there life is going decline so might ask family to take their life when the time comes. But then how you do they know when that time has come without the person being of sound mind? And maybe the person thinks differently by then.

I don't know. It's one of those situations you would have to be in before you could really make the decision.

 

[EllaAndLyla]

I think it really depends on the situation. If the patient consents to it then I don't see too much of a problem with it. However, if you were to make the decision yourself without knowing what your family member wanted then how would you know its what they want? You could make the wrong choice and it is something you can't undo. Its a really tough subject. I definatley agree that you need to be in that situation before you ever even think about what you would do. There are so many stories about people waking up from long comas or overcoming near death experiences, my OH has been in a coma and has had to be resusitated twice. If someone hadn't made the decision to resus or to keep the plug in then I wouldn't have ever met my OH, had our beautiful daughter and I wouldn't have all these plans for a big family in the future. He would have died without needing to.

 

[babz1986]

its such a hard decision to make and do we really have the 'right' to make them for somebody else.

When my dad was very ill with Cancer, he signed a consent for the Dr's not to resuscitate if they had to during his operation to try and remove it. They didn't and he isn't with us now. I wasn't pleased with his decision as if it was my decision I would of made them resuscitate and it devastated my mum and sister when he told them what he'd done. I'll never forget the day they came from the hospital and told me what he'd done.

My Gran had a stroke about 4 years ago, which has left her with no muscle control in her throat and vocal chords. She can't speak or eat, and its affected the right hand side of her body, so she finds writing hard too. Which has meant she has to go into a nursing home. Unfortunately we don't live close by, so only get to see her a couple of times a year, all she has recent visitors weekly from other members of the family.

Its sad to see, as she sits there mentally full aware of everything thats going on around her, but can't speak to get her needs across, she sits there watching everyone else eating and chatting, but she can't join in, nobody talks to her in the nursing home, as at the end of the day who's going to talk to somebody who doesn't respond. All the other patients are chatting away laughing together, whilst she's shoved up a corner on her own. She has no option but to wet and soil herself, whilst being full aware, she can't walk to the toilet or tell somebody she needs to go.

She's just basically given up hope and is very depressed. Now I don't think this is no way to live and it fills me with dread to think this could even happen to me in 50 years down the line, but still I would never want her to be voluntarily 'put down'. I just wish that there could be more done to try and assist her and make life better for her.

 

[AppleBlossom]

I'm for euthanasia that is done via specified clinics such as Dignitas. I believe that we should be able to have the right to end our own life IF the circumstances are correct. For example, someone with a long term illness that will never be cured, will cause pain and suffering with the inevitable end being death. Places like Dignitas go through rigorous procedures to ensure that everything is done right. That the patient is of a sound mind, that their illness/disease is terminal etc. I won't go into all of it as it's fairly complex.

However, I am not for euthanasia in the sense of people helping their loved ones die themselves by overdose of medication, smothering, whatever means. Even if the patient has asked them. Purely because it is something that that person will have to live with forever, knowing they helped kill a person and would have massive implications.

Also it should never be up to friends/relatives, it should only ever be the individuals decision in any situation.

I don't know if that made any sense but that's where I stand on it

 

[AppleBlossom]

I think if it was done in a clinic like the one in Switzerland (think that's where it is anyway) were they are offered counselling, it's all set up with videos, consent forms, even the police investigate each death then yes I agree with it.

There was the rugby player a few years back who was paralysed from the neck down. He went from being a young athletic man to sitting in a chair or lying in a bed being tube fed with breathing tubes for the rest of his life. He decided himself to go to the clinic and end his life. I agree he should have been allowed to make this decision for himself.

Although theres then situations were someone with have an illness like Alzheimer's and know there life is going decline so might ask family to take their life when the time comes. But then how you do they know when that time has come without the person being of sound mind? And maybe the person thinks differently by then.

I don't know. It's one of those situations you would have to be in before you could really make the decision.

In this case, with Dignitas type clinics, if you have a disease like Alzheimers you have to choose to end your life before you lose the ability to voice it. You have to be of sound mind and the clinics will not allow anyone to make a decision for you, even if you have asked them to, so if you had Alzheimers and knew you wanted to end your life via that method, you would have to end your life while the illness was in the earlier stages because in the later stages you wouldn't be considered as being "of a sound mind" and therefore would be rejected from the clinic

 

[smokey]

Its one of those things that im not perticularly for but could never say for sure how I felt about it without being in that situation.

 

[Baby France]

then they can do it themselves? Instead of bringing possible criminal charges into it and asking your family to assist in killing you. Thats a huge ask and i dont think its fair on the family anyway.

In hospitals do not attempt resus forms are filled out without the consent of the family. Its a doctors decision and IMO i think its right.

Completely agree. My Grandad has just had 4 heart attacks in two weeks and has been resusitated twice. After his first he just kept saying 'why didn't you let me go?'

We were so worried that Do Not Resusitate never got talked about, until he had another a few days later...watching him like that knowing he wanted DNR after the first was very very painful.

However, I would never have wanted to make that choice or 'do the deed' so to speak. If it was in the hands of the doctor and they DNR on the decision of the PATIENT...

I would hate to say to my Grandad that you're alive because we went against your wishes or we let him go against his wishes.

 

[louandivy]

I'm for euthanasia that is done via specified clinics such as Dignitas. I believe that we should be able to have the right to end our own life IF the circumstances are correct. For example, someone with a long term illness that will never be cured, will cause pain and suffering with the inevitable end being death. Places like Dignitas go through rigorous procedures to ensure that everything is done right. That the patient is of a sound mind, that their illness/disease is terminal etc. I won't go into all of it as it's fairly complex.

However, I am not for euthanasia in the sense of people helping their loved ones die themselves by overdose of medication, smothering, whatever means. Even if the patient has asked them. Purely because it is something that that person will have to live with forever, knowing they helped kill a person and would have massive implications.

Also it should never be up to friends/relatives, it should only ever be the individuals decision in any situation.

I don't know if that made any sense but that's where I stand on it

Completely agree with your whole post!