Student protest?

[rubixcyoob.]

The tories are doing what everyone said they would when first elected. They are catering too the rich. People with hunderes of thousands of pounds in disposable income a year will be able to afford these fees with no loans, their children won't graduate into a lifetime of debt. Everyone else has no hope.

Sure this may not affect us right now, but ask yourself, are you willing to let your children accumulate so much debt if university is their chosen path? Will you still say "so what, education shouldn't be 'free'?". Will you be happy/nonchalent/unfazed then?

And as fantastica has said, in regards to the protestors, out of every single people who protested, the amount of got violent was not a majority. For the most part the protests were peaceful, and those who did protest violently, for the majority, were not even students.
Its a shame a small amount ruins it for everyone. We, students, have all been tarnished with the same brush. For someone elses animal behaviour.

Now, I am in no way condoning the violence, but look at it from the other way. The police were violent too. They riled the students. In glasgow horebacked police officers were called with no cause. They boxed the protesters in like animals. No wonder tempers flared. Yet because police officers are seen as the law, they are in the right. Boggling.

Each of the sides, that participated in the violence, are as bad as each other and should be equally quiestionable.

 

[x-MummyToBe-x]

Gosh poor charles & camilla. God love their poor souls in their rich car, with their rich lifestyle, funded by taxpayers. More than the students will now get from the taxpayer!

Their lifestyle and finances are beyond the point. They are elderly people in a car where the bullet proof glass was broken. They must have been terrified. That is not OK because they are rich and privaledged and students are p*ssed off.

Students climbing on and disrespecting, urinating on war memorials. Perhaps you could explain to my friend who's husband was killed in Afghanistan why that is acceptable?

It's disgusting and I am gobsmacked anyone would think any of it was OK.

That's disgusting

 

[AppleBlossom]

Just seen this:

https://www.number10.gov.uk/news/speeches-and-transcripts/2010/12/pms-speech-on-education-57964

I read half of it and got bored. Someone trying to cover up an unbelieveable cock up I think...

 

[midori1999]

It does affect me, my eldest son will be 18 in a few years. If he wants to go to university, he will have to pay the fees, we cannot afford to support 5 children through unviersity. Had I wanted to go to unversity, I would have had to support myself also. My stepdaughter starts university next year.

I would only be happy about my children going to university if they had a worthwhile reason to do so, although that decision is ultimately theirs. My stepdaughter isn't going for the right reasons, IMO, she's going for the sake of it. I would much prefer my children to do something with vocational qualifications or on the job training, much better chance of employment and earning a decent wage. Degrees are ten a penny these days, which is why so many graduates are either unemployed or in 'menial' jobs which they are over-qualified for.

The debt is a bit of a red herring as it will only be paid back once people earn over a certain threshold and after 30 years the debt is written off if not paid. The rates at which it is proposed the debt be paid back in relation to earnings is not unrealistic.

Considering the circumstancs, I think the police have been quiet restrained. The protests got out of hand last time, it's not unrealistic to foresee it happening again and lets face it, the protests won't make a bit of difference.

 

[indy and lara]

Pretty soon,if we are not careful, further and higher education will be only the domain of the upper middle/ upper classes as everyone will have been priced out of it. It is horrifying that soon there are going to be many, many people for whom university education is nothing but a pipe dream.

Tuition fees of between £6000 and £9000 a year over a 3 year course means that you will enter the workplace with a MINIMUM debt of £18000. This is without other loans for living costs. It does not matter how seriously you want to embark on a university course, when that is thereality you are faced with many people just won't be able to take the risk of being saddled with this debt. Not all graduate jobs come with mega bucks salaries. I had a post grad loan of £3500 many, many years ago and had to pay it back at £140 a month. That was a LOT of money from my salary. This however is a tiny proportion of debt in comparison to what people are facing now.

There does need to be a look at the whole university system and hard decisions need to be made about whether there are just too many courses which do not offer value. Uni should not be a way for the Government to keep unemployment figures low. However, this should not simply be a war on intellectualism. It is very easy to declare arts and humanities subjects as a waste of time but we need a broad base of knowledge in our society and we do need sociologists, historians, geographers, etc. If all prospective students were to decide that they were not willing to end up with debts like these and not to go to Uni then we would be in huge difficulties as a country. There are many jobs which cannot be done without a university education. Obvious one are doctors and dentists but there are many others. Without civil/ structural engineers we would not have roads/ bridges/ waste water treatments. Without scientists we do not have cures to diseases. The list is endless.

The Lib Dems should hang their heads in shame. They stood on an election promise not to raise fees and they have. They lied. Pure and simple. They have huge support among students and they have completely u-turned. Some of us don't believe that power at all costs should be how we live our lives, something Mr Clegg clearly doesn't agree with.

And it is worth saying again that the vast majority of the idiots who caused trouble yesterday were not students. They were anarchist groups who seem to attach themselves to every protest these days and do the causes nothing but harm.

I went to uni in the early 1990s, just as grants were being phased out but fees were nowhere on the horizon. I worry about the future of a country where only the wealthy will be able to embark on higher education. We will be a lot poorer as a nation if this is what happens.

 

[TattiesMum]

The proposals aren't, in my opinon, all that bad to be honest! The government is up the creek without a paddle as far as finances are concerned, drastic measures need to be taken. Labour caused this by encouraging every man and his dog to go to Uni which is why we've ended up with courses in things that mean nothing and are of no real value.

Isnt that a good thing though?

I have heard it mentioned a few times that there are courses which have no value - which ones are they?

No, it's not a good thing. It has been costing the country/tax payer a fortune for no return. Graduate employment is at an all time low and there is a huge shortage of people taking vocational courses and so we have a shortage of those in trade industries, such as electricians and pumbers.

This is a complete fallacy I'm afraid There is no shortage of electricians or plumbers or skilled blue collar workers in general.

There IS a shortage of scientists in all fields and engineers in the UK but both of those require a University Education. We should also remember that we have a shortage of Nurses - they need to attend Uni as well.... as do many other professionals whose chosen careers are most definitely vocational

Graduate employment is only at an all time low in the 'soft' courses - and yes, perhaps students wishing to take such courses should pay a premium, but to charge all students such extortionate fees - even those whose chosen vocation will eventually benefit our society - is to throw out the baby with the bathwater

 

[blahblahblah]

I read somewhere someone saying that university is an investment in your future - I totally agree with this.

The simple solution to keep encouraging people into worthwhile careers is to run a similar scheme in the appropriate industries as they do for teaching. They get part/all their fees paid off if they are employed as a teacher for a certain amount of time. Why not do that within the NHS and wherever else people are needed too? That way the increases still filter out the wasters, but the rebates keep in the good'uns.

There are lots of ridiculous courses out there by the way. One mentioned earlier was Costume Design - which could be learnt better on an apprenticeship if it's your particular area of interest. You can also get a degree in Acting, Drama, Fashion, Popular Music or Dance! What could one possibly gain by having a degree in these subjects? I doubt having a degree helps someone get a part in Eastenders!

I also don't get why people are so annoyed about the Lib Dems not actioning their manifesto. They didn't win the election! It's like having a go at labour for not actioning theirs. At least the Lib Dems can put their tuppence in the melting pot in the decision making process.

 

[indy and lara]

The simple solution to keep encouraging people into worthwhile careers is to run a similar scheme in the appropriate industries as they do for teaching. They get part/all their fees paid off if they are employed as a teacher for a certain amount of time. .

AS a teacher I question whether the profession needs people who are going to 'pop in' for a few years in order to get their fees paid. The profession needs people who are dedicated and doing the job as career choice, not a financial option.

 

[blahblahblah]

The simple solution to keep encouraging people into worthwhile careers is to run a similar scheme in the appropriate industries as they do for teaching. They get part/all their fees paid off if they are employed as a teacher for a certain amount of time. .

AS a teacher I question whether the profession needs people who are going to 'pop in' for a few years in order to get their fees paid. The profession needs people who are dedicated and doing the job as career choice, not a financial option.

It's what they're already doing - I'm just saying if it's good enough for teachers, it's good enough for other industries. TBH if someone wasn't dedicated I doubt they'd keep a job long enough to get their fees paid anyway.

 

[indy and lara]

The simple solution to keep encouraging people into worthwhile careers is to run a similar scheme in the appropriate industries as they do for teaching. They get part/all their fees paid off if they are employed as a teacher for a certain amount of time. .

AS a teacher I question whether the profession needs people who are going to 'pop in' for a few years in order to get their fees paid. The profession needs people who are dedicated and doing the job as career choice, not a financial option.

It's what they're already doing - I'm just saying if it's good enough for teachers, it's good enough for other industries. TBH if someone wasn't dedicated I doubt they'd keep a job long enough to get their fees paid anyway.

It is not happening in Scotland. Whether it is happening or not is not my point. My point is that it is not good enough for teaching as far as I am concerned. They are not expected to make a 10 year commitment to the job so I am quite sure if it means writing off a £30k debt, there will be many people who will hang around until their debt is paid and then they are off.

 

[Pyrrhic]

Personally, I think when they started urinating on war memorials, defacing Churchill's statue and attacking the future King they lost all respect and IMO I don't care to listen to their 'protest' any more. Yes it was not the majority who acted, but the medium was made available to them and this is not the first acts of frankly terrorism we have seen from students in recent weeks.

Disgusting behaviour.

 

[KrisKitten]

I can't even be bothered to comment on the tuition fees issue, it is sickening that there is a rise and that's that. I look forward to anyone who agrees with the rise trying to put their children through uni in the future.
My biggest issue here though?
Does anyone actually know how we got into the recession in the first place? It is all based around the concept of bad debt and written money. Basically the idea that banks chucked loans at people that were nigh on impossible to pay back, because our current economy is based on debt. Money is debt in the current age, anyone who doesnt undertsand that search the phrase in youtube and there are some helpful videos.
So can anyone explain, how giving out larger loans to people who may possibly never pay back, in a larger quantity is meant to help out with our national debt?
Anyone?
Because either student loans are not going to be available for everyone, in which case that is an outrage to a nation who agree that education is power. Or they'll give them out to anyone and some people will inevitably not pay it all back - increasing the national debt by proxy.
Completely and utterly ridiculous.

 

[rubixcyoob.]

Personally, I think when they started urinating on war memorials, defacing Churchill's statue and attacking the future King they lost all respect and IMO I don't care to listen to their 'protest' any more. Yes it was not the majority who acted, but the medium was made available to them and this is not the first acts of frankly terrorism we have seen from students in recent weeks.

Disgusting behaviour.

I agree, disgusting behaviour. However, as it has been pointed out, the ones who committed these vile acts WERE NOT students. It was a small group who attends protest on all and sundry to cause an uproar like that.
The students were peaceful.
Do not forget these protest were not just attended by students, anyone could go.

So please, before tarnishing students with this unsightly brush, stop and think, because it was not them who acted in these animalistic ways. It may be a "student" protest but that does not mean blame should be carted off on them for that fact.

Well said Kris!

 

[Pyrrhic]

Has it actually been proven that none of them were students? The man who launched a fire extinguisher off a roof was a student. Some people who broke shop windows were students...

 

[KrisKitten]

Has it actually been proven that none of them were students? The man who launched a fire extinguisher off a roof was a student. Some people who broke shop windows were students...

They may very well have been students by occupation, in the same way Ian Huntley was a caretaker. The person and the profession are not mutually exclusive.
Just because they were students doesnt mean they did what they did because they were banded together for the cause, they did it because they like to cause trouble and thought it was a good excuse.
Even the police admitted in one interview that it was a minority of protestors that weren't peaceful.
The people who caused trouble are the same trouble makers from everyday life. You would admit it would be unfair to say all school children are thugs because some 16 year olds across the country have mugged people?
Same principle, more concentrated situation.
Not fair to tarnish all with the same brush xxxx

 

[indy and lara]

The people who caused trouble are the same trouble makers from everyday life. You would admit it would be unfair to say all school children are thugs because some 16 year olds across the country have mugged people?
Same principle, more concentrated situation.
Not fair to tarnish all with the same brush xxxx

Nicely put. At the end of the day there are idiots in all walks of life but it is not fair lump everyone together.

I wonder if people's feelings will change in 10/15 years time when professions which already struggle to attract students will have even fewer. The science and engineering sector already have huge problems and I would imagine that this will only worsen when people are being saddled with huge debt.

 

[TattiesMum]

The people who caused trouble are the same trouble makers from everyday life. You would admit it would be unfair to say all school children are thugs because some 16 year olds across the country have mugged people?
Same principle, more concentrated situation.
Not fair to tarnish all with the same brush xxxx

I can't add to this - Kris nailed it

 

[Arlandria]

The proposals aren't, in my opinon, all that bad to be honest! The government is up the creek without a paddle as far as finances are concerned, drastic measures need to be taken. Labour caused this by encouraging every man and his dog to go to Uni which is why we've ended up with courses in things that mean nothing and are of no real value.

Isnt that a good thing though?

I have heard it mentioned a few times that there are courses which have no value - which ones are they?

No, it's not a good thing. It has been costing the country/tax payer a fortune for no return. Graduate employment is at an all time low and there is a huge shortage of people taking vocational courses and so we have a shortage of those in trade industries, such as electricians and pumbers.

This is a complete fallacy I'm afraid There is no shortage of electricians or plumbers or skilled blue collar workers in general.

There IS a shortage of scientists in all fields and engineers in the UK but both of those require a University Education. We should also remember that we have a shortage of Nurses - they need to attend Uni as well.... as do many other professionals whose chosen careers are most definitely vocational

Graduate employment is only at an all time low in the 'soft' courses - and yes, perhaps students wishing to take such courses should pay a premium, but to charge all students such extortionate fees - even those whose chosen vocation will eventually benefit our society - is to throw out the baby with the bathwater

Such a shame that uni fee's are so high, I know so many people, including myself who would loved to do a nursing degree but I cant afford it

 

[amandad192]

I bet the "students" who are being violent animals didn't even get off their asses to go and vote!

 

[marley2580]

I don't understand this feeling that uni courses are only worthwhile if they are for a 'worthy' job - nurses, engineers etc. I went to uni and studied history and politics, not because I wanted a job in either of those subjects, but because I'm interested in the subjects and I love to learn. I'm really wanting to do drama at college next because it's a subject that I love and I want to learn how to be better at it. Also, have people never heard of transferrable skills? At uni I learned how to research, how to communicate both written and vebally, how to work as part of a team, how to work independently, how to work to deadlines etc etc. All useful skills. Just because you don't see any value in a particular subject doesn't meant that there isn't any.

I went to uni when Scotland were charging fees and I left with debt of over £18,000, I can't imagine what sort of debt my kids will leave with if they want to go. And I'm one of those that won't pay back my loan either btw. I'm not going back to work, I'm a SAHM, I've paid back some but it's unlikely I'll go back before it's written off.