Student protest?

[indy and lara]

What good is that going to do? They'll just end up living off benefits the rest of their life because they can't get a degree and won't be able to get a decent job.

Erm, how presumptuous is that comment??!!!

I have a decent job (and have had many over the years) and have only just got a degree at 37 (whilst working full time may I add). My OH does not have a degree and has been a top level exec for 15 years (since he was 25). We spent the years we would have spent at Uni getting some experience and working our way up. You just have to have a bit of nouse. A degree does not guarantee a decent job (prime example here) especially in certain arenas where there simply are not enough jobs to go around, nor does holding a degree reflect intelligence IMO.....

These whinging students should try getting a part time job to help pay their fees, like a lot do, and certainly did in my generation.

The vast majority of students have part time jobs and always have. I used to work in Wm Lows (all the Scottish oldies will remember there!) and so did DH. (It is how we met!!) Nothing has changed. I have had loads of teaching students over the years and they all have jobs. This stereotype of students as layabouts is as old as the hills but that does not make it an accurate snapshot of student life.

There are, as someone said, many students who have flash cars/ lifestyles but we have no idea how they maintain this lifestyle. Quite possibly it is funded by parents. A minority of students who flash the cash are not representative of the student population as a whole. There are plenty non- students who live flashy lifestyles outwith their means too.

Whether we like to admit this or not, in 2010 the opportunities to 'work your way up' through a company are not there to nearly the same extent as they were 10/20 years ago. Many of my friends left school with good qualifications and chose to take school leaver jobs in banks/ finance companies. They have worked their way up the ladder and are working at levels now which will only be achieved by people with degrees.

I very much doubt that it will only be Cambridge and Oxford who charge £9000 a year in fees. I would guess that all the Russell Group universities will charge at those levels too and that is a group of 20 unis in total. People who chose to leave education at 16, 17 or 18 do not leave with debt. There would be an outcry if they did. However, people who chose to leave education after another 3 or 4 years are going to be saddled with an enormous debt. All our doctors, teachers, lawyers, scientists, researchers, academics, engineers, and so on. That is not acceptable to me.

 

[indy and lara]

Just throwing this out there, people have said "arts" and "humanities" subjects are not needed nor go towards a job.

My university departments are being refurbished. Our 'School of Arts and Humanities', now consits of those typical subjects as well as Film, Media and Journalism; Law; Religion; Philosophy; History and other such subjects.
Don't simply lump everything together.

I have a History degree and was part of the Arts Dept at Edinburgh Uni. I would love someone to try and tell me it was worthless. History, English etc have been traditional Arts subjects forever.

 

[minkymoo]

What good is that going to do? They'll just end up living off benefits the rest of their life because they can't get a degree and won't be able to get a decent job.

Erm, how presumptuous is that comment??!!!

I have a decent job (and have had many over the years) and have only just got a degree at 37 (whilst working full time may I add). My OH does not have a degree and has been a top level exec for 15 years (since he was 25). We spent the years we would have spent at Uni getting some experience and working our way up. You just have to have a bit of nouse. A degree does not guarantee a decent job (prime example here) especially in certain arenas where there simply are not enough jobs to go around, nor does holding a degree reflect intelligence IMO.....

These whinging students should try getting a part time job to help pay their fees, like a lot do, and certainly did in my generation.

How presumptuous is that comment?
To assume every students that is upset at the tuition fees is an unemployed layabout?
Most students i know do have a part time job.

ETA:
in fact i dont know any unemployed students accept for 3 people who were all sacked due to cutbacks in the company down to the recession.

.

 

[minkymoo]

What good is that going to do? They'll just end up living off benefits the rest of their life because they can't get a degree and won't be able to get a decent job.

Erm, how presumptuous is that comment??!!!

I have a decent job (and have had many over the years) and have only just got a degree at 37 (whilst working full time may I add). My OH does not have a degree and has been a top level exec for 15 years (since he was 25). We spent the years we would have spent at Uni getting some experience and working our way up. You just have to have a bit of nouse. A degree does not guarantee a decent job (prime example here) especially in certain arenas where there simply are not enough jobs to go around, nor does holding a degree reflect intelligence IMO.....

These whinging students should try getting a part time job to help pay their fees, like a lot do, and certainly did in my generation.

The vast majority of students have part time jobs and always have. I used to work in Wm Lows (all the Scottish oldies will remember there!) and so did DH. (It is how we met!!) Nothing has changed. I have had loads of teaching students over the years and they all have jobs. This stereotype of students as layabouts is as old as the hills but that does not make it an accurate snapshot of student life.

There are, as someone said, many students who have flash cars/ lifestyles but we have no idea how they maintain this lifestyle. Quite possibly it is funded by parents. A minority of students who flash the cash are not representative of the student population as a whole. There are plenty non- students who live flashy lifestyles outwith their means too.

Whether we like to admit this or not, in 2010 the opportunities to 'work your way up' through a company are not there to nearly the same extent as they were 10/20 years ago. Many of my friends left school with good qualifications and chose to take school leaver jobs in banks/ finance companies. They have worked their way up the ladder and are working at levels now which will only be achieved by people with degrees.

I very much doubt that it will only be Cambridge and Oxford who charge £9000 a year in fees. I would guess that all the Russell Group universities will charge at those levels too and that is a group of 20 unis in total. People who chose to leave education at 16, 17 or 18 do not leave with debt. There would be an outcry if they did. However, people who chose to leave education after another 3 or 4 years are going to be saddled with an enormous debt. All our doctors, teachers, lawyers, scientists, researchers, academics, engineers, and so on. That is not acceptable to me.

Yes they are, people just don't look for them. Again, this is someting I know for a fact.

A lot also think getting a degree will get will just land them a prize job when figures will show that it will not, and this is no recent phenomena. It's taking people a long time to twig that vocational qualifications will get you much further than a degree in fields other than medicine, science etc.

Having a degree and a few years of study does not reflect ability and competence in the working world.

There is no excuse for the appalling behaviour. None whatsover. There are plenty of government cuts and policies that affect me and that I don't agree with (and I work for them!!!) but I do not go about vandalising property and being generally violent and obnoxious. I put up and shut up as I accept that this country needs to get back on it's feet. It's not all about one group of affected individuals.

 

[indy and lara]

Yes they are, people just don't look for them. Again, this is someting I know for a fact.

A lot also think getting a degree will get will just land them a prize job when figures will show that it will not, and this is no recent phenomena. It's taking people a long time to twig that vocational qualifications will get you much further than a degree in fields other than medicine, science etc.

Having a degree and a few years of study does not reflect ability and competence in the working world.
There is no excuse for the appalling behaviour. None whatsover. There are plenty of government cuts and policies that affect me and that I don't agree with (and I work for them!!!) but I do not go about vandalising property and being generally violent and obnoxious. I put up and shut up as I accept that this country needs to get back on it's feet. It's not all about one group of affected individuals.

I'm sorry but they just are not. I had agraduate job as an inverstment accountant before retraining as a teacher. Many of my pals are still in this field. There have hardly been any school leaver jobs in the last few years. Edinburgh is one of the UK's financial heartlands but these jobs are just not there. DH is an engineer and there are barely any technician posts available. I don't know the last time his company took on a school leaver and he works for the UK's leading company. `10 years ago posts in these fields were widely available. Just examples of how these jobs are not available in 2 very different industries.

I think that the students were completely within their rights to protest. We all have the right to protest. I chose not to put up and shut up about the way things are going in the country. I did not make ANY of this mess but am suffering the brunt of other people's mistakes. I do not agree with the violent protests which happened last week but that does not mean that subject matter they are protesting about is not valid.

 

[marley2580]

What good is that going to do? They'll just end up living off benefits the rest of their life because they can't get a degree and won't be able to get a decent job.

Erm, how presumptuous is that comment??!!!

I have a decent job (and have had many over the years) and have only just got a degree at 37 (whilst working full time may I add). My OH does not have a degree and has been a top level exec for 15 years (since he was 25). We spent the years we would have spent at Uni getting some experience and working our way up. You just have to have a bit of nouse. A degree does not guarantee a decent job (prime example here) especially in certain arenas where there simply are not enough jobs to go around, nor does holding a degree reflect intelligence IMO.....

These whinging students should try getting a part time job to help pay their fees, like a lot do, and certainly did in my generation.

How presumptuous is that comment?
To assume every students that is upset at the tuition fees is an unemployed layabout?
Most students i know do have a part time job.

ETA:
in fact i dont know any unemployed students accept for 3 people who were all sacked due to cutbacks in the company down to the recession.

As somebody who work for the Department for Work and Pensions I can assure you that the VAST majority of students do not work.

Fact.

I don't understand how this qualifies you to make such a sweeping statement, please do elaborate.

 

[redpoppy]

Personally, I think when they started urinating on war memorials, defacing Churchill's statue and attacking the future King they lost all respect and IMO I don't care to listen to their 'protest' any more. Yes it was not the majority who acted, but the medium was made available to them and this is not the first acts of frankly terrorism we have seen from students in recent weeks.

Disgusting behaviour.

I'm sorry but this bordering on bigotry. I never understand how people find it totally acceptable to pass judgement on a whole people just due to the actions of a few?

Am I evil and deserve to be treated as someone who tried 7/7 because I'm a british Muslim? No I'm not. And I also used to be a student and NEVER was I violent towards anyone like the vast VAST majority of students.

The fees increase is just starting at up to £9000. Do people think it will stop there? Or realistically, any time we have any national debt issues the uni will be the first place the government will turn in the future.

We WILL have a society of rich graduates and poor non graduates with a SPRINKLING of poorer students daring to look a £30,000 debt straight in the eye and work their socks off to get a degree.

It's a step back. In many third world countries the REASON for lack of social mobility is because of education standards being directly linked with your social class and we are taking a step toward third world structure.

If access to power (government careers, law careers, journalism etc.) is only available to the VAST majority of only rich people then our future as a fair society is in danger. Not because rich people are evil but because I have met enough people who run think tanks or in journalism who are extremely out of touch. They have never met a black person who grew up in the UK or they've never come across gay culture or (and this guy runs a think tank which regularly produces papers on the imminent threat to the UK from extremist Muslims) they've never met and spoken to a Muslim and only been to visit Malaysia of al the Muslim countries in the world and that was a week spent on a beach.

We need people from ALL walks of life in power to have a fair society. A rise in tuition fees is not just about students and how hard they should have to work it is about the very structure and fabric of our society.

And as I said in another thread; we live in a society and are part of one with our fellow humans. We should care as a society not just for our own selves. We could privatise everything including the NHS or the police and we could make society even more unfair than it will be now. We can tell those who eat too much or drink too much or smoke too much and those that don't regularly exercise that they need to pull their socks up and start working harder to get access to health services.

I just never understand people who feel outraged by helping others as they constantly feel as though they are being taken for a ride. It doesn't take much to show some compassion and MOST people aren't living off benefits and scrounging off the state and out to get your money so you have to suffer. MOST people want to get on, get a job, earn some money, not be in debt, not feel undue stress and pressure, find the right person to share their life with and just live.

To paraphrase a saying: MOST people want to learn to fish rather than be given fish. But it seems we would rather be upset and angry than trying to make the world a better place. It seems we'd rather be yelling "that guys stealing all our fish!!!!" whilst demolishing all the boats rather than giving a little effort to help setting up the fishing rod and net.

As people say "the poor stay poor and the rich get rich" and the rise in tuition fees ensures this will be even truer in our society, one which I felt proud of and owed my own rise from growing up on benefits in government housing and into middleclassdom with a mortgage and family to.

 

[minkymoo]

What good is that going to do? They'll just end up living off benefits the rest of their life because they can't get a degree and won't be able to get a decent job.

Erm, how presumptuous is that comment??!!!

I have a decent job (and have had many over the years) and have only just got a degree at 37 (whilst working full time may I add). My OH does not have a degree and has been a top level exec for 15 years (since he was 25). We spent the years we would have spent at Uni getting some experience and working our way up. You just have to have a bit of nouse. A degree does not guarantee a decent job (prime example here) especially in certain arenas where there simply are not enough jobs to go around, nor does holding a degree reflect intelligence IMO.....

These whinging students should try getting a part time job to help pay their fees, like a lot do, and certainly did in my generation.

How presumptuous is that comment?
To assume every students that is upset at the tuition fees is an unemployed layabout?
Most students i know do have a part time job.

ETA:
in fact i dont know any unemployed students accept for 3 people who were all sacked due to cutbacks in the company down to the recession.

As somebody who work for the Department for Work and Pensions I can assure you that the VAST majority of students do not work.

Fact.

I don't understand how this qualifies you to make such a sweeping statement, please do elaborate.

.

 

[EternalRose]

It doesnt surprise me at all minkymoo....x

 

[indy and lara]

When similar statements have been made on this website about people on benefits (not working, scrounging, not adding value to society, etc) then people are up in arms. Interesting that students are fair game.

 

[rubixcyoob.]

The loan doesnt go on your credit file, so you would still be eligible for a mortgage..

Just clearing that up as someone on this thread queried how students will buy a house once they graduate e.t.c

I disagree with the rioting, but it was hardly going to be a peaceful protest.

I, on the other hand am not too bothered about the increase, dare I be contraversial! Im sure the 9000 fees are only for Oxford and Cambridge. All other unis are up to 6000.

You dont pay anything back till your earning over £21k and even then it wont be a huge amount. If students want to take other loans on top, then unfortunately you have to pay it back thats life.....

You go to uni, and see plenty of students dressed up in designer clothes with fancy cars.There was a time, when students lived to their means to ensure they left uni with minimal debt? But now students want it all, no one wants to wait for anything. My fiance went and had a look at the student accomodation at his university. They do luxury accomodation, that look like penthouses with Plasma Screen TV's in the rooms. £900 a month!! Hello! They have got to be frickin kiddin me?!!!!

I think a lot of students are wasting their bloody time at uni. They dont really want to be there, picked a course they *liked* with no sight into the future, or simply went to a uni to please parents. I think this will deter students from going to university for the sake of getting a degree, then getting a job at tescos afterwards. You dont need a degree for tescos, you dont need a degree for call cantre work!!

HOWEVER, how they can determine what is a useful degree is as opposed to a non-useful degree I dont know. Its all subjective.

Just a few things before you make your sweeping judgements.

- I have never once seen any student in my university with designer anything nor fancy cars. They drive moderately priced second hands ones and nearly everyone mulls arouns in high street fashion.

- yes you only pay something back once you earn £21k or more, but realisticall in this world, where inflation is at the highest it has ever been right now, £21,000 a year does not stretch far. Extra payments are not needed.

- up to £9,000 is just a start and it won't stop there. It also doesn't mean people only pay back a maximum of £36,000 in debt. There is also inflation, interest and everything else a normal loan has attatched.

- that is just one university accommodation. My first year residence in halls was a far cry. I had a room no bigger than a single bed, door, wardrobe, sink, desk along one wall with drawers underneath. That was it. It was also based on drawings for a Norweigan prison if that indicates sizes I am talking about. This is more the norm for accommodation.

- who cares if someone just 'liked' a course. Education should not be something people do simply to get a course in that field, what is wrong with educating yourself further in a subject you enjoy? My cousin done LLB Law and not the diploma, she now works in an irrelevant subject within parliament and can never become a practicing solicitor. Should she have avoided her course?

- may sutdents get jobs in the likes of Tesco or Asda right now after they graduate because there is a shortage of jobs due to recession and cut backs. They cannot help that. I'm sure they didn't think, "great, 4 years of hard work and studying over, time to land my dream role in Tesco as a shelf stacker now!"

 

[rubixcyoob.]

What good is that going to do? They'll just end up living off benefits the rest of their life because they can't get a degree and won't be able to get a decent job.

Erm, how presumptuous is that comment??!!!

I have a decent job (and have had many over the years) and have only just got a degree at 37 (whilst working full time may I add). My OH does not have a degree and has been a top level exec for 15 years (since he was 25). We spent the years we would have spent at Uni getting some experience and working our way up. You just have to have a bit of nouse. A degree does not guarantee a decent job (prime example here) especially in certain arenas where there simply are not enough jobs to go around, nor does holding a degree reflect intelligence IMO.....

These whinging students should try getting a part time job to help pay their fees, like a lot do, and certainly did in my generation.

How presumptuous is that comment?
To assume every students that is upset at the tuition fees is an unemployed layabout?
Most students i know do have a part time job.

ETA:
in fact i dont know any unemployed students accept for 3 people who were all sacked due to cutbacks in the company down to the recession.

As somebody who work for the Department for Work and Pensions I can assure you that the VAST majority of students do not work.

Fact.

I don't understand how this qualifies you to make such a sweeping statement, please do elaborate.

No sweeping statement at all. I manage a team of labour market analysts using information and data driven by labour market systems (which we all exist on) and HMRC. If all of these students ARE indeed working then they are certainly not declaring it, nor paying tax and NI....and there is a whole other show!

LOL students are exempt from paying tax or NI because they are students, just liket they are exempt from paying council tax. That is why you do not pay it. That is why I never pay it.
My mother works for HMRC and the tax division within it. Fact.

And to say students do not get jobs is utter bull. I do not know one student within my university that I am an acquaintance with or friendly with that does not have a job. Fact.

Sweeping, ridiculous statement based on something that they don't even have to do.

 

[coccyx]

If people want to educate themselves in a subject they just happen to 'like' then they need to fund it themselves. Country is in a bad way, can't carry on as we were

 

[KrisKitten]

There is no excuse for the appalling behaviour. None whatsover. There are plenty of government cuts and policies that affect me and that I don't agree with (and I work for them!!!) but I do not go about vandalising property and being generally violent and obnoxious. I put up and shut up as I accept that this country needs to get back on it's feet. It's not all about one group of affected individuals.

Have you read my first post in this thread? If you have could you tell me how exactly the rise in tuition fees are going to help the country get back on its feet?
An honest invitation because it is completely beyond me

No sweeping statement at all. I manage a team of labour market analysts using information and data driven by labour market systems (which we all exist on) and HMRC. If all of these students ARE indeed working then they are certainly not declaring it, nor paying tax and NI....and there is a whole other show!

A few reasons your 'statistics' might not be the most accurate things in the world...
Students do not pay income tax if they work during the holidays in some cases.
Unless students earn over £110 a week they don't pay national insurance - very few do on a part time job.
Very very few students earn over the personal allowance for PAYE in a year.

"Lies, Damned Lies & Statistics" - Mark Twain.

 

[KrisKitten]

If people want to educate themselves in a subject they just happen to 'like' then they need to fund it themselves. Country is in a bad way, can't carry on as we were

If you like a subject you are more likely to work at it and gain more from it. University is often used as a way of finding what career you could go into by taking a subject you 'like'.
And yet again please explain to me how this is going to help us out of recession!

 

[rubixcyoob.]

Kris, it's just like baging your head on a brick wall.

How people can believe making education elitist for the rich and not academics will help the recession is beyond me. How people can sit back and claim all students are thugs is beyond me. How people can say these rises are fair as education should not be 'free' is beyond me. How people can not care and turn a blind eye is beyond me. How people make such sweeping statements like the ones made is gob smacking.

Some people just don't get it, nor care, because they aren't students.

I can't wait till their kids want to go to university to study a subject they merely 'like', with next to no part time job. I wonder what their views will be then. Karma will always out.

 

[smokey]

He wont be going to university to study just because he likes the subject, if he is serious about education and want to do it and work towards his carer then I will pay for it.
I never saught handouts for my education and I wont for his.
We have an account for him and if it stays at the current rate of how much is going in to it each week then by the time he is 18 he will have £25000 to either pay towards further education or to help pay towards his own place.
We are be no means rich but sensinsible with savings

 

[KrisKitten]

He wont be going to university to study just because he likes the subject, if he is serious about education and want to do it and work towards his carer then I will pay for it.
I never saught handouts for my education and I wont for his.
We have an account for him and if it stays at the current rate of how much is going in to it each week then by the time he is 18 he will have £25000 to either pay towards further education or to help pay towards his own place.
We are be no means rich but sensinsible with savings

What if he doesn't know what career exactly he wants to go into? What if he say, loves English Literature at school and wants to study that because he likes it but he isn't sure which career he wants it to lead into?
Will you tell him he's on his own because he can't make his mind up?

And imo they arent hand outs. At the end of the day by working people are paying into society, it is only right for society to pay to get them to a stage where they are capable of working.
xxx

 

[indy and lara]

He wont be going to university to study just because he likes the subject, if he is serious about education and want to do it and work towards his carer then I will pay for it.
I never saught handouts for my education and I wont for his.

That is fine as long as your son follows your instructions to the letter. By the time your LO goes to uni he will be an adult and quite how you intend to stop him going to uni to study the subject he enjoys is quite beyond me.

 

[smokey]

I dont plan on stoping him but I also wont be encouraging wastfull persutes by funding them, if he wants to go just for the shear hell of it then thats down to him he pays his own way, if he his seriouse and has a career in mind then I will support him.

Basicly I do not want it to happen the way it happened with OH cousin who pretty much took every pointless course he could get away with just as an exscuse to study in America and a few other places and openly admited he'll keep doing them because he didnt want to get a job yet, he continued this way untill he was 28.
One of the courses he took was marine biology, he openly boasted about how he had no intention of ever getting a job in this field but at least he got to spend a year by the coast abroad.
Its that sort of attitude im refering to, if its just a case of he isnt sure and is still genuinly finding his path then I will help and support him anyway I can but if its obviously time waisting then no he stands on his own feet and will soon learn life isnt as easy as mummy and daddy will pay for me