The 12 year old boy imprisoned for 25 years after being tried as an adult

[Andypanda6570]

I don't even know how it is in the States when it comes to the justice system as every state is different, so it can be hard to read a generalization about the entire country when every state has its different means of doing things. Woah, was about to put the flower smilie You'd think I would have a decent idea considering I live about 5 or 6 hours from both the NY and Michigan borders but no such luck.

That's what I interpreted Andypanda to be saying. But I can see how things can come across too, tone is so hard to gauge over text.

In other stuff, do people really think the smilie is annoying? Holy hell, I use it in almost every post.

As for the topic, I can also see looking as a parent how horrific it'd be to have your kiddo jailed for that long. But then I try to think of it from the victim's family standpoint, and that's where I would get upset as at least he has his life. Dead is dead and there's no coming back from it. Even if he didn't pull the trigger, again at 12 years of age you know right from wrong. JMO though.

LOL. I always use it and I swear I mean it in a positive way especially when disagreeing with a person. I don't care I am still going to use it, I know what I mean by it, and I know I mean it genuinely

I am not a passive aggressive person so again judging.. Never ends does it ? At this point you gotta just lol at it....

 

[Piper84]

I don't even know how it is in the States when it comes to the justice system as every state is different, so it can be hard to read a generalization about the entire country when every state has its different means of doing things. Woah, was about to put the flower smilie You'd think I would have a decent idea considering I live about 5 or 6 hours from both the NY and Michigan borders but no such luck.

That's what I interpreted Andypanda to be saying. But I can see how things can come across too, tone is so hard to gauge over text.

In other stuff, do people really think the smilie is annoying? Holy hell, I use it in almost every post.

As for the topic, I can also see looking as a parent how horrific it'd be to have your kiddo jailed for that long. But then I try to think of it from the victim's family standpoint, and that's where I would get upset as at least he has his life. Dead is dead and there's no coming back from it. Even if he didn't pull the trigger, again at 12 years of age you know right from wrong. JMO though.

LOL. I always use it and I swear I mean it in a positive way especially when disagreeing with a person. I don't care I am still going to use it, I know what I mean by it, and I know I mean it genuinely

I am not a passive aggressive person so again judging.. Never ends does it ? At this point you gotta just lol at it....

Seriously, didn't you announce on a couple of occasions that you were done with this thread? This isn't the first time you've steered it away from the original topic and back to you, and it's not helping you or anyone else. I responded to a question posed by Tiff; you are just looking for drama.

 

[xemmax]

I don't think this case is comparable to the James Bulger case...that poor child was killed brutally while in this case the kids were trying to get rid of a man who was abusive.

That obviously doesn't excuse murder...but I don't think that the kids should get that long in jail. I do believe tho that it's a sentence that will be shortened along the way due to good behavior etc. Or at least I hope it is because those kids will only know prison by the time they get out!

It really upsets me when kids do things like this...who knows what happened to turn that innocent child into someone willing to take a life?

I agree that there are of course differences, Venables and Thompson were clearly disturbed and the murder was prolonged, unlike this case.

I still don't think they should have been tried as adults though.

This is a biased source (Paul Henry Gingerich Trust Fund) but this is obviously the defense's version of events:
https://www.paulhenrygingerichtrustfund.org/background02.html

This claims he didn't even fire the fatal shot.

Surely there should have been a retrial because of the procedural errors? His lawyer wasn't given enough time to prepare and he was improperly questioned by the police (without a lawyer, judging by the photos).

You would think so, wouldn't you? There seems to be quite a few errors reported, I'm not sure how they were dealt with. There doesn't actually seem to be all that much online about the case, or at least less than I thought there would be.

 

[Andypanda6570]

I don't even know how it is in the States when it comes to the justice system as every state is different, so it can be hard to read a generalization about the entire country when every state has its different means of doing things. Woah, was about to put the flower smilie You'd think I would have a decent idea considering I live about 5 or 6 hours from both the NY and Michigan borders but no such luck.

That's what I interpreted Andypanda to be saying. But I can see how things can come across too, tone is so hard to gauge over text.

In other stuff, do people really think the smilie is annoying? Holy hell, I use it in almost every post.

As for the topic, I can also see looking as a parent how horrific it'd be to have your kiddo jailed for that long. But then I try to think of it from the victim's family standpoint, and that's where I would get upset as at least he has his life. Dead is dead and there's no coming back from it. Even if he didn't pull the trigger, again at 12 years of age you know right from wrong. JMO though.

LOL. I always use it and I swear I mean it in a positive way especially when disagreeing with a person. I don't care I am still going to use it, I know what I mean by it, and I know I mean it genuinely

I am not a passive aggressive person so again judging.. Never ends does it ? At this point you gotta just lol at it....

Seriously, didn't you announce on a couple of occasions that you were done with this thread? This isn't the first time you've steered it away from the original topic and back to you, and it's not helping you or anyone else. I responded to a question posed by Tiff; you are just looking for drama.

Oh yea that is me drama............You were referring to me so i responded and I did NOT quote you like you did me ^^... And I will be done when I want to, not when you want me to.. Have a nice day..

 

[Piper84]

You would think so, wouldn't you? There seems to be quite a few errors reported, I'm not sure how they were dealt with. There doesn't actually seem to be all that much online about the case, or at least less than I thought there would be.

It is strange. The documentary is being shown on 2 May on Channel 4. It would have been interesting (if depressing) viewing. I doubt I'll be able to get hold of it on youtube.

 

[LoraLoo]

I don't think this case is comparable to the James Bulger case...that poor child was killed brutally while in this case the kids were trying to get rid of a man who was abusive.

That obviously doesn't excuse murder...but I don't think that the kids should get that long in jail. I do believe tho that it's a sentence that will be shortened along the way due to good behavior etc. Or at least I hope it is because those kids will only know prison by the time they get out!

It really upsets me when kids do things like this...who knows what happened to turn that innocent child into someone willing to take a life?

Sorry if i offended with the James Bulger case- I agree completely different situations, It was just the boys similar ages that made me immediately compare, and the fact that they were pushed into trying Venables and Thompson as adults, as in this case x

 

[Tiff]

I don't even know how it is in the States when it comes to the justice system as every state is different, so it can be hard to read a generalization about the entire country when every state has its different means of doing things. Woah, was about to put the flower smilie You'd think I would have a decent idea considering I live about 5 or 6 hours from both the NY and Michigan borders but no such luck.

That's what I interpreted Andypanda to be saying. But I can see how things can come across too, tone is so hard to gauge over text.

In other stuff, do people really think the smilie is annoying? Holy hell, I use it in almost every post.

As for the topic, I can also see looking as a parent how horrific it'd be to have your kiddo jailed for that long. But then I try to think of it from the victim's family standpoint, and that's where I would get upset as at least he has his life. Dead is dead and there's no coming back from it. Even if he didn't pull the trigger, again at 12 years of age you know right from wrong. JMO though.

I think the smiley is annoying if it's used in a passive aggressive way, which I still think was the case here.

Tbh, I find the one more passive aggressive. Not sure why though!

 

[tina3747]

I personally think at the age of 12 you know killing someone is wrong. I dont think the judge was wrong maybe they should make sure that the child understood more, and contributing factors looked at. After working with children 4 years old plus they understand its wrong. A slap on the wrist for murdering someone isnt going to cut it; i studied human rights and believe in them. But i do think that we often take the to softly softly approach. If your child beat up another child you wouldent say oh but they didnt understand. I think this child needs pycological treatment due to fact he said he was just following his friend and shot someone.they planned out what they would do. I think to many are able to get away with awful crime citing maturity. Im interested in how people thought he should have been punished. How would you reabilitate him back in to society and do you tthink that murder should stay on his record. I dont really know much about the us juvinile prison systom. When i was in high school one of the boys in my class and another in year above broke in to an oaps home and raped and robbed this poor woman. We were 13 and i will say we all understood how wrong what he did was and were disgusted

Your not from leicester are you?
I went to school with a boy who did the same thing.

 

[zanDark]

Sorry if i offended with the James Bulger case- I agree completely different situations, It was just the boys similar ages that made me immediately compare, and the fact that they were pushed into trying Venables and Thompson as adults, as in this case x

not at all hun xx I was just thinking out loud

Maybe the kids involved in both cases were tried as adults because the acts were premeditated? That's the only reason I can think of.

I am not a passive aggressive person so again judging.. Never ends does it ? At this point you gotta just lol at it....

OT but anyone who has ever seen your posts knows you're a sweetheart with a heart of gold

 

[Tiff]

Yep, definitely time to move past that whole thing. I don't think Andypanda was meaning it in a bad way but can understand why it was taken like that.

I probably didn't help with my question about the passive aggressive smilies. I blame it on it still being early here and posting before finishing my coffee.


ZanDark - I was thinking the same thing, about how it was premeditated? Also with him not being questioned properly either - it scares me at times because I often think of people in those types of positions (doctors, law enforcement etc) are these sort of demi-gods (for lack of a better term) that always do the right thing.

Its sobering when you realize that they're human along with the rest of us. However, if I make a mistake in my daily life it normally won't affect anyone else. If that makes sense?

 

[Foogirl]

At risk of posting something actually on topic......

I've heard the abuse thing going back and forth in various reports some say it happened some say it didn't. Of course it is always a handy defence to have up your sleeve and can be very difficult to disprove. Whether or not it is true, for these children to pre-meditate a murder in this way is just as bad as the opportunistic manner James Bulger's killers operated in. I'm not sure its worse for a child to kill another, than it is for a child to kill an adult. In all the situations, there is no doubt these children have something desperately wrong with them and need to be treated.

Is the problem not that the children's justice system really isn't equipped for dealing with these sorts of serious crimes? As a judge, I think I'd want the full range of penalties available to me when considering a case. But one thing is for certain, the judge who made this decision, the state in which it was made, even the justice system in which they operate would never ever have been able to make the "right" decision. I doubt there is a justice system in the world which could have made the "right" decisions. Liberals will always say they should be tried as children and the right wing would say they got off lightly.

 

[Tiff]

At risk of posting something actually on topic......

I've heard the abuse thing going back and forth in various reports some say it happened some say it didn't. Of course it is always a handy defence to have up your sleeve and can be very difficult to disprove. Whether or not it is true, for these children to pre-meditate a murder in this way is just as bad as the opportunistic manner James Bulger's killers operated in. I'm not sure its worse for a child to kill another, than it is for a child to kill an adult. In all the situations, there is no doubt these children have something desperately wrong with them and need to be treated.

Is the problem not that the children's justice system really isn't equipped for dealing with these sorts of serious crimes? As a judge, I think I'd want the full range of penalties available to me when considering a case. But one thing is for certain, the judge who made this decision, the state in which it was made, even the justice system in which they operate would never ever have been able to make the "right" decision. I doubt there is a justice system in the world which could have made the "right" decisions. Liberals will always say they should be tried as children and the right wing would say they got off lightly.

Very true! Thankfully stuff like this doesn't happen as often as other stuff... so I would agree that the system wouldn't really know how to deal with it either.

 

[Noelle610]

If this kid - and he is a kid - goes to prison for 37 years he's going to come out worse than he went in. He'll be a hardened criminal at that point.

If there's an attempt to rehabilitate him, he may have a shot at being a productive member of society.

I'm all about what's good for society. What he did was horrendous, but I don't believe it's the government's job to determine the morality of the deeed. I believe it's the judiciary's job to determine a sentance that best serves all of society.

I know many will disagree, but that's how I feel. If he was a mass murdering 35 year old of course I'd say lock him up - he's a danger to others. But I feel as if it's a waste not to make an attempt to rehabilitate a young boy.

 

[zanDark]

In all the situations, there is no doubt these children have something desperately wrong with them and need to be treated.

This exactly

Maybe I'm just being a big hormonal softie these days lol but I can't help but feel conflicted on the whole thing. I know that their crime being premeditated doesn't help things along for them, but I honestly feel like it was a situation where they didn't completely understand what they were doing. A friend told them he was being abused (probably) and that he was going to kill him...so the others went along not knowing that they were actually going to do it. Does that even make sense?

In my eyes it makes them different from a bunch of boys that just want to kill someone and grab the first kid they see so they can live out their mentally messed up fantasies.

That said tho, murder is murder and they should be punished for taking a life. I just hope the system will help not spend most of their life in jail and will help them rejoin society one day.

 

[Piper84]

I think if a woman who is subjected to domestic violence for years has her sentence for murdering her husband mitigated due to the circumstances, the sentence for a boy (I mean the stepson here, Lundy) and possibly the people he incited to murder should also be reduced if there was abuse involved.

I also think there is a huge difference between kidnapping a toddler, over whom you have complete control, and torturing him before murdering him, is far worse than an (allegedly) abused boy shooting dead his bigger, stronger abuser. Both are premeditated, yes, but for different reasons and with different power structures involved.

 

[Bex84]

I personally think at the age of 12 you know killing someone is wrong. I dont think the judge was wrong maybe they should make sure that the child understood more, and contributing factors looked at. After working with children 4 years old plus they understand its wrong. A slap on the wrist for murdering someone isnt going to cut it; i studied human rights and believe in them. But i do think that we often take the to softly softly approach. If your child beat up another child you wouldent say oh but they didnt understand. I think this child needs pycological treatment due to fact he said he was just following his friend and shot someone.they planned out what they would do. I think to many are able to get away with awful crime citing maturity. Im interested in how people thought he should have been punished. How would you reabilitate him back in to society and do you tthink that murder should stay on his record. I dont really know much about the us juvinile prison systom. When i was in high school one of the boys in my class and another in year above broke in to an oaps home and raped and robbed this poor woman. We were 13 and i will say we all understood how wrong what he did was and were disgusted

Your not from leicester are you?
I went to school with a boy who did the same thing.

Nope suffolk, its so disturbing thinking what must go through someones head to do it

 

[Foogirl]

I think if a woman who is subjected to domestic violence for years has her sentence for murdering her husband mitigated due to the circumstances, the sentence for a boy (I mean the stepson here, Lundy) and possibly the people he incited to murder should also be reduced if there was abuse involved.

I also think there is a huge difference between kidnapping a toddler, over whom you have complete control, and torturing him before murdering him, is far worse than an (allegedly) abused boy shooting dead his bigger, stronger abuser. Both are premeditated, yes, but for different reasons and with different power structures involved.

That's the thing though, James Bulger's kidnap wasn't really pre-meditated. It was actually quite opportunistic.

 

[Natsku]

I think if a woman who is subjected to domestic violence for years has her sentence for murdering her husband mitigated due to the circumstances, the sentence for a boy (I mean the stepson here, Lundy) and possibly the people he incited to murder should also be reduced if there was abuse involved.

I also think there is a huge difference between kidnapping a toddler, over whom you have complete control, and torturing him before murdering him, is far worse than an (allegedly) abused boy shooting dead his bigger, stronger abuser. Both are premeditated, yes, but for different reasons and with different power structures involved.

I agree with this. If there was abuse involved then the that ought to be taken into consideration (for the stepson that was abused at least) like battered woman syndrome.

I think when it comes to crimes committed by children the main aim should be to prevent them from continuing down the road of crime, not just sticking them in prison to punish them as that doesn't really accomplish anything.

 

[lhancock90]

Whilst i understand what he did was horrific.
I can not wrap my head around a twelve year old (the law states someone as young as ten can be tried as an adult) being tried as an adult.

 

[tina3747]

Whilst i understand what he did was horrific.
I can not wrap my head around a twelve year old (the law states someone as young as ten can be tried as an adult) being tried as an adult.

I'm on the fence with this (as usual!) but I guess there would be uproar if it was an adult, with the mind and capabilities of a 12 yr old being tried as an adult.

I can see a huge gap between the Bulger case and this one. When I read about it yesterday I must say I felt compassion for the boy, something I can't do for Venables and Thompson.