to circumcise or not?

[blutea]

This post is not directed at anyone specifically, only directed toward specific attitudes that are commonly repeated throughout society.

For anyone doing it for religious reasons, first, I just want to ask you to please read the articles that have been mentioned that show the actual history of how circumcision became to be associated with religion.

Why I don't agree with doing anything for religious reasons -

Do you agree with stoning and all the other things Palestrina mentioned? What about the religions/cultures that cut off girls' clitorises when they are born? That is called female circumcision (and is now illegal in the US, but before it was made illegal, don't you think people had arguments about it all the time just the same as male circumcision is now being argued about?), and male circumcision became a common practice in the US for the same reason. NOT for medical reasons. The medical reasons were searched for and exaggerated to back up the real reason. It was started by people who thought that removing the foreskin and thus reducing sexual pleasure would keep boys from masturbating and keep men from cheating on their wives.

And Jews did not originally circumcise, they made a tiny cut and sucked out a few drops of blood as a sacrifice to God. They did this with the foreskin because they considered it the most god-like body part. They began routinely circumcising in order to prevent them from looking like everyone else, so they couldn't fit in, not because removing the foreskin was what God told them to do. That is why there is a growing movement within the Jewish community to bring the religious rite back to what it was originally intended to be.

Lots of religions have lots of examples of things that most of their followers believe is mandated by their religion, but if you dig deeper and do research, you will find that these things are not required at all, and in fact some of them are actually forbidden!

Why I hate people who say "It's MY kid, I can do what I want with him!" -

CHILDREN ARE NOT PROPERTY!

Slave owners thought the exact same thing about their slaves. They were treated as property. They did barbaric things to them with the same excuse.

Children are PEOPLE. They deserve the same rights as adults, including the right to choose whether to have unnecessary surgery performed. As they are too young to decide for themselves at that point in their lives, they deserve the chance to grow up and learn enough to make an informed decision on their own.

This is also an example of why I never do anything just because "everyone else does it" and don't think there's anything wrong with doing something that is commonly done, just because everyone else thinks it's fine.

Other reasons I am anti-circ -

(TMI alert) My husband is circumcised, and thanks to the removal of his foreskin, he has very little sensitivity in his penis. In addition to that, too much of his foreskin was removed (it is impossible to cut precisely the "right" amount because the penis is so tiny at birth and there is no way to know how much it will grow), and this caused his scrotum to be pulled up the shaft of his penis, making the shaft hairy, which causes sex to be very difficult. The only practical method of hair removal would be laser or electrolysis which is far too expensive for us, so trimming is the best that can be done without causing it to be prickly and make the pain even worse. This has caused us so much emotional pain in our relationship, and I would estimate his circumcision as 70% of the reason it took us over four years to conceive this child. I don't hate his mother for getting him cut. I hate society for making it a common practice that people who weren't well-informed just went along with, not even knowing it could have this kind of effect on their sons' lives.

Children die from circumcision. Not that commonly, but not as rarely as you might think, either. Children don't die from NOT being circumcised. Why take any risk on anything that could possibly kill your child, even with a .0000000000000001% chance, if it's not medically necessary? Any chance is still a chance, and I'm not going to take that chance if I don't have a damn good reason for it. If I had a son, he could take that chance himself if he chose to later in life, but I refuse to be responsible for something like that. How would I feel if my baby was the 1 in 1,000 (or whatever the actual odds are, I can't recall specifically at the moment) that died from circumcision? I would hate myself forever. How would you feel?

I'm sure I've left out something that I've thought of while reading the last 6 or so pages that were posted since the last time I peeked in on the thread, but these are things that I felt it very important to say. Had I ever had a son and had him circumcised, like blutea, I would feel horrible and wish that someone had pointed out the truth about circumcision to me before I did that to my poor child. I don't think she should blame herself. She didn't know. It's so widely accepted in our society that people don't even think to question it. She obviously had never had an experience at that point in time that gave her any reason to question societal norms. Thankfully, now she has, and can make informed decisions about everything in the future. Many people live their entire lives in ignorance, not questioning anything, doing what they're told. It isn't really their fault because they trusted their parents, who trusted theirs, who trusted theirs, etc, who trusted society to be honest and do the right thing all the time. In this age of information, though, many more people now know better. I think that is probably why the rate of circumcision has dropped so dramatically in the last few years.

Thank you for this.

 

[lisaf]

However, I do feel complied to advocate for the babies. They have no voice in this matter and they are the ones who feel the pain and who have to live with the consquences of your actions (the collective you). Again, you need to think of your son as a grown man with rights and not just as your baby.

I think that everyone who does circ IS thinking of their child as an adult man. The worry about STDs etc is not one you would have for a baby.
And YES proper hygeine can give just as much or more benefit as circumcision... but I know how good care guys take of their feet, their rooms etc and not all guys, no matter how they are raised are going to practice good hygeine.

I understand your motives for speaking out about how traumatized you feel your son was and how upset you were by how your circ choice turned out. But you keep saying that the child should have a say in it. Why do you assume your say is what they would want? I know many guys who are happy they were circ'd and I've heard several guys who had to have it done later who wished it had been taken care of when they were infants.

Well maybe then it would be most beneficial to keep all baby boys intact and then forcefully perform circumcision on only the men at increased risk for things like penile cancer or STI's.... you know the ones who have been deemed as failing to comply to good hygeine practices or those who engage in homosexual activity....... Cause if consent isn't required from a newborn why should it be required a full grown man if they are considered one of the same??? That would be the most effective way of dealing with this problem in terms of obtaining reduced morbidities associated with newborn circumcision while maximizing the benefits of circumcision to those at risk........

I understand and see your point. BUT those who practice poor hygiene often don't take care of their health in general unless its urgent. They may not have the money or WANT to face a painful surgery.
I'm not saying circing is clearly 'better' because it reduces the worries of poor hygiene and the effect on health. I'm just saying that I can understand why some parents choose to circ for health reasons despite the fact that proper hygeine can offer the same health outcomes.

 

[blutea]

However, I do feel complied to advocate for the babies. They have no voice in this matter and they are the ones who feel the pain and who have to live with the consquences of your actions (the collective you). Again, you need to think of your son as a grown man with rights and not just as your baby.

I think that everyone who does circ IS thinking of their child as an adult man. The worry about STDs etc is not one you would have for a baby.
And YES proper hygeine can give just as much or more benefit as circumcision... but I know how good care guys take of their feet, their rooms etc and not all guys, no matter how they are raised are going to practice good hygeine.

I understand your motives for speaking out about how traumatized you feel your son was and how upset you were by how your circ choice turned out. But you keep saying that the child should have a say in it. Why do you assume your say is what they would want? I know many guys who are happy they were circ'd and I've heard several guys who had to have it done later who wished it had been taken care of when they were infants.

And I have read that many men wish they had been allowed to make their own choice about their own bodies. If a man chooses to circ later in life that is totally fine because it is his choice and he has probably made an informed decision for himself. More men would prefer to have a foreskin than not.

I don't know a single circ'd man who cares that his foreskin was removed. Its the only penis he's ever known so he doesn't feel that he lost out on anything. So it may just be the people you know lean more one way on the topic than the other. It doesn't mean that all men feel that way.
Circing later in life has a longer recovery period and its something they remember. Whether the pain is more or not isn't really something that can be proved.

Many men do wish they had not been circ'd and are attempting foreskin restoration. Babies don't remember but it does impact their infancy- the mother/baby bond, the breastfeeding relationship, sleep, trust... Babies do feel pain and studies show they experience even more pain than adults. Circing later in life is a memorable event but an adult can take appropriate painkilles and can clean it properly, an infant cannot.

 

[KandyKinz]

However, I do feel complied to advocate for the babies. They have no voice in this matter and they are the ones who feel the pain and who have to live with the consquences of your actions (the collective you). Again, you need to think of your son as a grown man with rights and not just as your baby.

I think that everyone who does circ IS thinking of their child as an adult man. The worry about STDs etc is not one you would have for a baby.
And YES proper hygeine can give just as much or more benefit as circumcision... but I know how good care guys take of their feet, their rooms etc and not all guys, no matter how they are raised are going to practice good hygeine.

I understand your motives for speaking out about how traumatized you feel your son was and how upset you were by how your circ choice turned out. But you keep saying that the child should have a say in it. Why do you assume your say is what they would want? I know many guys who are happy they were circ'd and I've heard several guys who had to have it done later who wished it had been taken care of when they were infants.

Well maybe then it would be most beneficial to keep all baby boys intact and then forcefully perform circumcision on only the men at increased risk for things like penile cancer or STI's.... you know the ones who have been deemed as failing to comply to good hygeine practices or those who engage in homosexual activity....... Cause if consent isn't required from a newborn why should it be required a full grown man if they are considered one of the same??? That would be the most effective way of dealing with this problem in terms of obtaining reduced morbidities associated with newborn circumcision while maximizing the benefits of circumcision to those at risk........

I understand and see your point. BUT those who practice poor hygiene often don't take care of their health in general unless its urgent. They may not have the money or WANT to face a painful surgery.
I'm not saying circing is clearly 'better' because it reduces the worries of poor hygiene and the effect on health. I'm just saying that I can understand why some parents choose to circ for health reasons despite the fact that proper hygeine can offer the same health outcomes.

I'm in Canada so if there were a medical indication for circ (which in my scenario I would classify this situation as cause I'm the ruler of my little world ) money would not be an issue cause it would be covered..... And I am doubtful many newborns actually want to face a painful surgical procedure either so I don't think that's a valid point.

 

[lisaf]

Many men do wish they had not been circ'd and are attempting foreskin restoration. Babies don't remember but it does impact their infancy- the mother/baby bond, the breastfeeding relationship, sleep, trust... Babies do feel pain and studies show they experience even more pain than adults. Circing later in life is a memorable event but an adult can take appropriate painkilles and can clean it properly, an infant cannot.

I have heard of foreskin restoration, but by 'many' how many is that really? I'd be interested on stats. It seems like it would be something that was rarely done... whether thats due to cost issues is a different matter.

I know plenty of women who had no bond issues, no breastfeedign issues or anything like that. I understand that for some it can be a huge deal and it DOES happen sometimes, but its by no means a given that circumcising will cause the problems you listed.
I can't imagine circumcision is any more painful to a baby than being squeezed through a birth canal. I'm not saying that justifies, it but babies already go through plenty of pain just in being born... circumcising is an 'optional' pain, but if avoiding pain in infants were THAT important, we'd all have c-sections to spare them possible injuries, cranial malformation, broken bones etc that all happen when being born.

I'm not trying to say circumcising is better, I just take issue with a few of the reasons you give against circumcision.

 

[blutea]

Many men do wish they had not been circ'd and are attempting foreskin restoration. Babies don't remember but it does impact their infancy- the mother/baby bond, the breastfeeding relationship, sleep, trust... Babies do feel pain and studies show they experience even more pain than adults. Circing later in life is a memorable event but an adult can take appropriate painkilles and can clean it properly, an infant cannot.

I have heard of foreskin restoration, but by 'many' how many is that really? I'd be interested on stats. It seems like it would be something that was rarely done... whether thats due to cost issues is a different matter.

I know plenty of women who had no bond issues, no breastfeedign issues or anything like that. I understand that for some it can be a huge deal and it DOES happen sometimes, but its by no means a given that circumcising will cause the problems you listed.
I can't imagine circumcision is any more painful to a baby than being squeezed through a birth canal. I'm not saying that justifies, it but babies already go through plenty of pain just in being born... circumcising is an 'optional' pain, but if avoiding pain in infants were THAT important, we'd all have c-sections to spare them possible injuries, cranial malformation, broken bones etc that all happen when being born.

I'm not trying to say circumcising is better, I just take issue with a few of the reasons you give against circumcision.

The simple fact that circ is elective makes all of these risks and consequences unacceptable. I would like to see the stats of men who are HONESTLY happy with being circ'd after they have done their research to understand what they are missing. Vaginal birth has MANY benefits to newborns and mothers, that has been proven.

 

[helen1234]

i dont cicumcise my boys,
the foreskin is there to protect the urinary tract from bacteria in feaces. this is why the foreskin naturally fold back around the age toddlers come out of nappies around 2+ yrs of age.
its there for a reason so will stay there unless theres a problem medically.

 

[helen1234]

Many men do wish they had not been circ'd and are attempting foreskin restoration. Babies don't remember but it does impact their infancy- the mother/baby bond, the breastfeeding relationship, sleep, trust... Babies do feel pain and studies show they experience even more pain than adults. Circing later in life is a memorable event but an adult can take appropriate painkilles and can clean it properly, an infant cannot.

I have heard of foreskin restoration, but by 'many' how many is that really? I'd be interested on stats. It seems like it would be something that was rarely done... whether thats due to cost issues is a different matter.

I know plenty of women who had no bond issues, no breastfeedign issues or anything like that. I understand that for some it can be a huge deal and it DOES happen sometimes, but its by no means a given that circumcising will cause the problems you listed.
I can't imagine circumcision is any more painful to a baby than being squeezed through a birth canal. I'm not saying that justifies, it but babies already go through plenty of pain just in being born... circumcising is an 'optional' pain, but if avoiding pain in infants were THAT important, we'd all have c-sections to spare them possible injuries, cranial malformation, broken bones etc that all happen when being born.

I'm not trying to say circumcising is better, I just take issue with a few of the reasons you give against circumcision.

The simple fact that circ is elective makes all of these risks and consequences unacceptable. I would like to see the stats of men who are HONESTLY happy with being circ'd after they have done their research to understand what they are missing. Vaginal birth has MANY benefits to newborns and mothers, that has been proven.

absolutely agree with that, one benefit if natural birth is to get rid of fluid in babys lungs which averages about 150 ml

x

 

[we can't wait]

This is what I really hate about circumcision. That people do it blindly without being fully informed of the facts, then say 'oh, it's my religion/culture/I did what was right for my child and you can't question me'. Well actually, nothing would change if we never questioned anything, would it?

The fact is, there are plenty of Jews and Muslims who choose not to circumcise, it is not compulsory in those religions. There are plenty of people who make the wrong decisions for their child even if they are well meaning and plenty of adults in therapy as a result, why should circumcision be an exception to that rule?

Excuse you! Don't you say that I am "Blindly" doing something and then blaming it on my religion! When you make statements like that, you are generalizing-- and it is INCREDIBLEY offensive. I am a PROUD Jewish American. You have the right to your opinion, but you do not have the right to put me down because of my beliefs. How rude.
I am circ'ing my boys, because it is an integral part of my faith. There is a ceremony and everything. It is important. I find very offensive that you posted "plenty of people make the wrong decisions for their child." Guess what? Judge yourself, before you judge other people. I am not making the wrong decision for my child. I am making the perfect deicision for my child, based on my culture. I have five nephews, all of which are circ'ed. Two of which, I was at the ceremony for. It is important to us. Please don't make any further comments about my religion-- you can state your opinion, without picking on us. Thank you.

Hiding behind cultural and religious laws does not mask the ethical issue at hand. People have been using religious laws to cover up heinous crimes for centuries. If a father stones his daughter to death because she has been raped in a middle eastern country I don't turn my head and say "oh well, that's his religion so we must respect that." I don't agree with women having less rights, being covered head to toe, being denied education, being passed up for promotions etc just because it's a religious or cultural norm. If I see a child is beaten mercilessly by his parents I can't turn my head away and just say "oh well that's their kid they have the right to do that." I think that parents who do these sorts of things to their children should be made to feel guilty and ultimately be punished.
Genital mutilation does not differ from any of the above circumstances. My religion tells me to do a lot of stupid things too but I don't do them.

Again, you are rude. No one is 'hiding behind cultural and religious laws.' I am openly practicing my cultural and religious beliefs-- not hiding behind them. And because I live in the wonderful United States of America, I can practice whatever I want to practice. It's called religious tolerance. Perhaps you've heard of it?
No one here is talking about stoning their children to death, or denying their daughters education, or beating our children mercilessly. It is completely outrageous to compare all of those things with a religious circ. Circ'ing my boys is not a 'heinous' crime. It is a jewish right, performed on the eighth day of our baby's life as a physical symbolization of our relationship with our chosen God. Obviously, not everyone has the same religion as me. That's clearly evident. I'm not saying "HEY-- JEWISH IS THE RIGHT WAY TO BE, YOUR WRONG" But you seem really determined to say that my religion is wrong, and that you are right. You're not! No one is right! No one is wrong! It's a personal belief-- and you greatly offending something that I am very passionate about. You think that parents who circ should be made to feel guilty and ultimately punished? How can you say that? What gives you the right to tell me that I am 'manipulating' my child, and that I should feel guilty and be punished? I am doing a religious practice, because I love my faith. It is what we do. I don't care if "A lot of Jews no longer do circs." Guess what? I'm Jew that does, so get off my religion. Don't say it's "something stupid" that God is telling me to do. In the event that you post again, please do so with less bashing of other peoples beliefs. Please share your opinion, without trying to hurt others. Thank you.

For anyone doing it for religious reasons, first, I just want to ask you to please read the articles that have been mentioned that show the actual history of how circumcision became to be associated with religion.
Why I don't agree with doing anything for religious reasons -
Do you agree with stoning and all the other things Palestrina mentioned? What about the religions/cultures that cut off girls' clitorises when they are born? That is called female circumcision (and is now illegal in the US, but before it was made illegal, don't you think people had arguments about it all the time just the same as male circumcision is now being argued about?), and male circumcision became a common practice in the US for the same reason. NOT for medical reasons. The medical reasons were searched for and exaggerated to back up the real reason. It was started by people who thought that removing the foreskin and thus reducing sexual pleasure would keep boys from masturbating and keep men from cheating on their wives.
And Jews did not originally circumcise, they made a tiny cut and sucked out a few drops of blood as a sacrifice to God. They did this with the foreskin because they considered it the most god-like body part. They began routinely circumcising in order to prevent them from looking like everyone else, so they couldn't fit in, not because removing the foreskin was what God told them to do. That is why there is a growing movement within the Jewish community to bring the religious rite back to what it was originally intended to be.
Many people live their entire lives in ignorance, not questioning anything, doing what they're told. It isn't really their fault because they trusted their parents, who trusted theirs, who trusted theirs, etc, who trusted society to be honest and do the right thing all the time. In this age of information, though, many more people now know better.

This is so upsetting. Again, another trying to 'teach' me about my own beliefs. What makes you think that because you can work the "search" button on the Google site, that you know more about Jewish people, than the Jews? Again, no one is talking about stoning their children. I'm not 'punishing' my baby. I'm following my CHOSEN religious path. My mother, and grandmother, and greatmother didn't push me into it like you seem to think. OH's parents, grandparents, etc, are all Jewish, and not a single one has even asked if we plan to circ. It isn't them that wants it-- it's us! Because our baby, and our families are followers of a certain religion, and we like it that way. Brining up female circ is irrelevant-- we are talking about male circ. We don't plan on circ'ing a female, because it is not part of our religion. If it were part of our religion, as is male circ, I can guarantee you (if the risks/benefits were the same as with male) that it would probably be done, too. Fortunately, I am answering that hypothetically, because it not a custom that we practice.
Don't try to teach me about my religion, because it is only making me want to teach you the right things about it. I really don't want to get into an argument over what my religion is. I will say though that, as far jews having no reason to circ other than that it is a passed down tradition-- that is incorrect. In the Torah, it explains that a Jewish male who is not circumicised is regarded as "spiritually cut off from God and the Jewish people."(Genesis 17:14). It was part of the Jewish right-- they circ'ed to 1) Physically show their devotion to God. & 2) To separate themselves from everyone else. It is our sign of the covenant between God and us... and that's why we are doing it. Not because of some 'outdated tradition.' If you don't know us, don't judge us.
Jewish people never claimed that it was for medical reasons-- so I don't know why you bring that up. For Jews, this is more than merely a medical procedure. The circumcision is a sign of the child's entry into Judaism. It's been practiced for over 3500 years. It's our faith. And you deeply offend and hurt me when you say that we are "living our lives in ignorance." We aren't just "doing what we are told." This is part of raising a child with our values. Everyone in our family has gone through circ's & we are going to do it, too.

When I first posted on this thread I was just trying to share a different perspective. I saw that most people were saying they would not do it, that it was mean, and that barbaric. For others, who want to circ, I wanted to give them some information about something other than you all's opinion. I had hoped to just enlighten some of you, and explain why this isn't a cruel procedure, a genital torture, or a barbaric custom. I never set out to argue with any of you-- you can look at my previous posts. I simply wanted to talk about how I feel-- since you talked about how you feel without being attacked-- and share my pride in my beliefs. I am appauled, and it deeply saddens me that many of you chose to speak so harshly about people who circ for religous reasons. We are making the best decision that we can for our babies-- whether its for religion or not. We're making this choice, just as some mothers will be selective about the books they read, and the televison they watch, and the sports they play. I haven't tried to say that any of you are wrong for not circ'ing. I understand your decisions... and I just hoped that you would understand mine-- maybe learn something new-- and move on with your lives, doing what it is that you want to do.

Please, if anyone else comments-- share your opinions, but don't single out people's religions. When you care so much about what you believe, it's hurtful for people to tell you that you should punished, just because you are following what you believe in. I ask you, respectfully, please don't make any more arguments about my faith. Please form your arguments based on some other factor.

I wish you all the best of luck in chosing what is right for your baby.

 

[lisaf]

blutea - I know the benefits to vaginal birth. I'm not trying to 'prove' that circumcision is better. I'm just saying that its not QUITE as black & white a decision for everyone as it is for you. That causing an infant pain is not exactly an evil thing in all cases.

I do wish you would be a little more respectful of others choices, just as we are of yours. I know you feel a need to warn someone of what you experienced, but warning them, educating them, and shoving your opinion down their throats are very different things.

I have never seen unbiased research into what losing a foreskin means. Yes, one reason to do it used to be to reduce masturbation... clearly that didn't work
I don't know a single guy who complains about the sensations he gets from his circumcised penis during sex. I think they all think its pretty darned incredible.
(I am not talking about botched circumcisions here of course, that is a separate issue)

 

[blutea]

blutea - I know the benefits to vaginal birth. I'm not trying to 'prove' that circumcision is better. I'm just saying that its not QUITE as black & white a decision for everyone as it is for you. That causing an infant pain is not exactly an evil thing in all cases.

I do wish you would be a little more respectful of others choices, just as we are of yours. I know you feel a need to warn someone of what you experienced, but warning them, educating them, and shoving your opinion down their throats are very different things.

I have never seen unbiased research into what losing a foreskin means. Yes, one reason to do it used to be to reduce masturbation... clearly that didn't work
I don't know a single guy who complains about the sensations he gets from his circumcised penis during sex. I think they all think its pretty darned incredible.
(I am not talking about botched circumcisions here of course, that is a separate issue)

There have been many botched circs over the years and again, these are unacceptable because the surgery is elective. I am sorry that you feel I am shoving my opinion down others throats. People often feel that way when it's something they don't want to hear.

 

[lisaf]

blutea - I know the benefits to vaginal birth. I'm not trying to 'prove' that circumcision is better. I'm just saying that its not QUITE as black & white a decision for everyone as it is for you. That causing an infant pain is not exactly an evil thing in all cases.

I do wish you would be a little more respectful of others choices, just as we are of yours. I know you feel a need to warn someone of what you experienced, but warning them, educating them, and shoving your opinion down their throats are very different things.

I have never seen unbiased research into what losing a foreskin means. Yes, one reason to do it used to be to reduce masturbation... clearly that didn't work
I don't know a single guy who complains about the sensations he gets from his circumcised penis during sex. I think they all think its pretty darned incredible.
(I am not talking about botched circumcisions here of course, that is a separate issue)

There are many botched circs. I am sorry that you feel I am shoving my opinion down others throats. People often feel that way when it's something they don't want to hear.

I don't know a single guy who had a botched circ This includes any guy I've been intimate with (admitedly not that many) and any guy my friends have been with (tons of guys sampled there and we're pretty graphic with our detail sharing!). I agree that the best way to avoid a botched circ is to not have it done at all, but I'm just not convinced that its extremely common.

I'm not vehemently pro-circ, but even I felt like some of your comments would be offensive to those who were. Even to those who understand the risks etc.
Its just that when you are sharing your persepective, it comes across as you saying yours is the only right one. I'm not sure if you intend it that way, but it does seem to come across that way a little on this topic.
No hard feelings?

 

[helen1234]

i dont think we can really compare birth to circumsing really two extremely different things, our bodies were designed to give birth, we dont have a choice. but we do have a choice to wether we circumcise or not,

wether people agree or not agree we cant change how people have bee bought up, all i can say is i'm glad i dont have to decide within my religion and have *sometimes* pressure from other family members to follow suit within a paticular culture.

 

[blutea]

blutea - I know the benefits to vaginal birth. I'm not trying to 'prove' that circumcision is better. I'm just saying that its not QUITE as black & white a decision for everyone as it is for you. That causing an infant pain is not exactly an evil thing in all cases.

I do wish you would be a little more respectful of others choices, just as we are of yours. I know you feel a need to warn someone of what you experienced, but warning them, educating them, and shoving your opinion down their throats are very different things.

I have never seen unbiased research into what losing a foreskin means. Yes, one reason to do it used to be to reduce masturbation... clearly that didn't work
I don't know a single guy who complains about the sensations he gets from his circumcised penis during sex. I think they all think its pretty darned incredible.
(I am not talking about botched circumcisions here of course, that is a separate issue)

There are many botched circs. I am sorry that you feel I am shoving my opinion down others throats. People often feel that way when it's something they don't want to hear.

I don't know a single guy who had a botched circ This includes any guy I've been intimate with (admitedly not that many) and any guy my friends have been with (tons of guys sampled there and we're pretty graphic with our detail sharing!). I agree that the best way to avoid a botched circ is to not have it done at all, but I'm just not convinced that its extremely common.

I'm not vehemently pro-circ, but even I felt like some of your comments would be offensive to those who were. Even to those who understand the risks etc.
Its just that when you are sharing your persepective, it comes across as you saying yours is the only right one. I'm not sure if you intend it that way, but it does seem to come across that way a little on this topic.
No hard feelings?

Lisa- do not single me out, there have been many passionate statements on this thread by others, for and against circ.

A botched cirs is not extremely common, I never said it was. Issues, infections, small complications are extremely common. I said because the surgery is elective the botches circs (and all other issues) are unacceptable. How would you feel if that had been your husband or your son?

 

[KandyKinz]

Is it time for a group hug, chocolate pudding and photos of sexy men dressed like pirates?????

 

[we can't wait]

blutea - I know the benefits to vaginal birth. I'm not trying to 'prove' that circumcision is better. I'm just saying that its not QUITE as black & white a decision for everyone as it is for you. That causing an infant pain is not exactly an evil thing in all cases.
I do wish you would be a little more respectful of others choices, just as we are of yours. I know you feel a need to warn someone of what you experienced, but warning them, educating them, and shoving your opinion down their throats are very different things.

I have never seen unbiased research into what losing a foreskin means. Yes, one reason to do it used to be to reduce masturbation... clearly that didn't work
I don't know a single guy who complains about the sensations he gets from his circumcised penis during sex. I think they all think its pretty darned incredible.
(I am not talking about botched circumcisions here of course, that is a separate issue)

Thank you so much for this comment-- it's a shorter way of saying what I was trying to say in my post (on previous page).

And I agree-- OH is circ'ed & obviously enjoyed sex enough to get me pregnant... so

 

[smashley]

 

[lisaf]

Lisa- do not single me out, there have been many passionate statements on this thread.

It's not extremely common, I never said it was. I said because the surgery is elective the botches circs are unacceptable. How would you feel if that had been your husband or your son?

I'm not trying to single you out, you were just replying to me specifically so I replied to you specificially. You definitely have not made the most passionate statements here, but you are here and replying so I replied to you. Thats all it was. I was just trying to offer the perspective of someone who doesn't have any reason to feel attacked by your statements. You're not telling me something I dont' want to hear, but I did find some of what you said to be a little harsh. Thats all.

And as for the botched circumcision. I'd feel the same way I would about any injury my child had. I'd wonder if I did the right thing, I'd feel guilty etc. BUT the same can be said for any medical procedure you opt in for... for a trip to the park, for turning your back for a second at the playground etc. You see it as an avoidable injury and it is (just as not turning your back might have avoided the stitches your kid needs from falling off the equipment at the playground)... but its not reckless parenting to make what you feel is a good choice, to do the best you can with your feelings/religion/knowledge and just because it doesn't turn out right, doesn't mean your choice was a bad one.

 

[lisaf]

haha group hug, cheesecake, cookies etc all around!
and LMAO @ smashley

 

[midori1999]

Why should people respect the choices of others if they don't agree with them? What if a Mother chose to leave her baby or toddler home alone whilst she went out for the night? Should I just respect their decision? Or do I have a right to disagree with it and disagree with her when she says she is not putting her baby at risk?

What about religions or cultures where female genital mutilation is standard? Where women are stoned to death for looking at another man or percieved adultery? Should I respect their views too? If not, why not?

As for saying complications are rare, as many babies die from circumcision as adults do from penile cancer per year. Even if other complications are rare (and lets face it, death is a pretty serious complication) when complications do happen they can be serious as can the surgery to correct them, as the following (graphic!) link shows. I can't speak for anyone else, but there would have to be very serious and proven health risks for me to risk anything like this happening to my son.

https://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm