to circumcise or not?

[lisaf]

Why should people respect the choices of others if they don't agree with them? What if a Mother chose to leave her baby or toddler home alone whilst she went out for the night? Should I just respect their decision? Or do I have a right to disagree with it and disagree with her when she says she is not putting her baby at risk?

What about religions or cultures where female genital mutilation is standard? Where women are stoned to death for looking at another man or percieved adultery? Should I respect their views too? If not, why not?

As for saying complications are rare, as many babies die from circumcision as adults do from penile cancer per year. Even if other complications are rare (and lets face it, death is a pretty serious complication) when complications do happen they can be serious as can the surgery to correct them, as the following (graphic!) link shows. I can't speak for anyone else, but there would have to be very serious and proven health risks for me to risk anything like this happening to my son.

https://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm

I didn't say complications were rare. I said botched circumcisions were rare and that men seeking to regrow their foreskins is rare.

You may see male circumcision as the same horrific practics as female circumcision/genital mutilation. But that is NOT a widely accepted view in all parts of the world.
Some parents think piercing a baby's ear is mutilation. That doesn't mean its a horrific thing to do.

You have your opinion, but you do not need to inflict it on others and criticize religious beliefs. At least not in this forum.

 

[LadyHutch]

After three of my nephews (two on my side, one on DH's) suffered complications from a botched circ, i am opting not to if I have a boy. Personal choice, not my business what anyone else does.

 

[midori1999]

Why should people respect the choices of others if they don't agree with them? What if a Mother chose to leave her baby or toddler home alone whilst she went out for the night? Should I just respect their decision? Or do I have a right to disagree with it and disagree with her when she says she is not putting her baby at risk?

What about religions or cultures where female genital mutilation is standard? Where women are stoned to death for looking at another man or percieved adultery? Should I respect their views too? If not, why not?

As for saying complications are rare, as many babies die from circumcision as adults do from penile cancer per year. Even if other complications are rare (and lets face it, death is a pretty serious complication) when complications do happen they can be serious as can the surgery to correct them, as the following (graphic!) link shows. I can't speak for anyone else, but there would have to be very serious and proven health risks for me to risk anything like this happening to my son.

https://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm

I didn't say complications were rare. I said botched circumcisions were rare and that men seeking to regrow their foreskins is rare.

You may see male circumcision as the same horrific practics as female circumcision/genital mutilation. But that is NOT a widely accepted view in all parts of the world.
Some parents think piercing a baby's ear is mutilation. That doesn't mean its a horrific thing to do.

You have your opinion, but you do not need to inflict it on others and criticize religious beliefs. At least not in this forum.

Perhaps you can copy and paste exactly where I have criticised others' religious beliefs? As far as I am concerned, I haven't.

I don't compare male circumcision with female genital mutialtion and I haven't said I do. What I have said is that people are saying we must respect people's religious views to circumcise and I have asked if we should also respect others religious (or otherwise) views to do things most of society find abhorrent. If not, why not?

Also, I am not 'inflicting' my opinion on anyone. I am posting during a debate on a forum, as are others, some of whom have opposing views to me. I might be offended by some of those people's views, but that's fine, they are entitled to different opinions to me.

 

[lisaf]

sorry, I came across harsher than I intended in the last post.
I just mean that you should respect that other people believe differently than you. And as long as what they are doing is not seen as criminal harm or neglect to their child, its really their choice no matter what YOU think would be better for them.

Hope that makes better sense/clarifies what I meant about inflicting your opinion on others.

If you feel circumcision for non-medical reasons should be criminal, then feel free to push for a law to make it so, but please don't attack individuals who are doing it for reasons that you may not agree with.

 

[MrsPOP]

Lisaf, my best friend's guy had a botched circ and they have been struggling a lot sexually due to his issues resulting from the circ.

It might be rare to have a botched circ, but it does happen and can have serious physical and emotional circumstances for both the guy and his partner. Just because you don't know anyone with a botched circ doesn't mean it never happens.

I say this with respect and cake of course.

 

[lisaf]

midori - If you still want me to quote where you criticized religious beliefs, I will, just let me know. I feel I clarified my point but let me know if you still feel I unfairly attacked you on that point.

 

[lisaf]

Lisaf, my best friend's guy had a botched circ and they have been struggling a lot sexually due to his issues resulting from the circ.

It might be rare to have a botched circ, but it does happen and can have serious physical and emotional circumstances for both the guy and his partner. Just because you don't know anyone with a botched circ doesn't mean it never happens.

I say this with respect and cake of course.

With cake? mmmmmmm what kind?

In all fairness I do know a botched circumsion does happen and that my own experience/exposure to them does not mean they are extremely rare. I can't even imagine how hard it would be to deal with and it is totally avoidable by not getting circumcised.
I just know that with the online world, its easy to find 100 stories of botched circumcision or even guys who feel their sensitivity must be lower because of circumcision etc. But as with all things online, its not always an accurate perception of the true rate that things happen. I read one article that quoted stats of 3-4% of circumcisions as having been 'botched' in some way and 1% had complications. It wasn't a scientific source though.

 

[LadyHutch]

I've never done the research but my personal experiences seem to point a botch is not all that rare. One of my poor nephews little guy ended up binding to his berries' sac. Ouch!

 

[Ember]

Botched circs are almost never diagnosed, except for the extreme cases. My best friend's son had to have his re-done twice because it was botched. I probably will never know, but I'm willing to bet that he will have troubles with his penis later in life because of it. There are some theories that a lot of curved penises are the result of botched circs, due to cutting off too much skin on one side, causing the skin to become tight and restrict growth on that side of the penis, creating the curve. It can also keep a man's penis from growing to it's full size, or make it painful when it becomes too erect. It can make the scrotum get pulled up the shaft which in addition to the possibility of it causing a hairy shaft, can cause a tight scrotum that can be painful and potentially harm the testes (which includes causing them to atrophy and become completely useless).
Just because diagnosed cases are only at about 3-4% doesn't mean there aren't a lot more out there. My husband didn't know he had a botched circ until I researched some of his specific problems and found similar stories. I would even bet that a few other guys I've been with had botched circs, just to a lesser extent (except one that the extent, I would say, is about equal). The problems that it causes vary greatly and some go unnoticed for a long time, perhaps even a man's entire life in some cases. Most guys that have problems are too embarrassed to talk about it and either are afraid of being called a freak if they tell anyone, or they just assume their problems are normal.

Just wanted to point out that, like other medical conditions that people don't always look into, they might not be as rare as you think, they are just rarely realized, or the link between cause and effect is not always discovered.

 

[lisaf]

Ember - you do have valid points about them being undiagnosed etc.
But I dont' think that any abnormality with a penis and the way it functions can automatically be blamed on circumcision.
I'd never heard the curved penis theory. My understanding was that all penises, cut or uncut can curve? (Having not had any experience/ecounters or had friends with any experiences with any severely curved penises cut or uncut I have no clue how common it is, or if it happens in both cut and uncut - I also don't have the guts to google this kind of thing )
I do wonder sometimes if a condition might have existed even without circumcision (tightness, hair up on the shaft etc) but I just don't know again if that stuff happens with uncut guys.
As you said many people do not wish to discuss problems with that area so I can imagine that some variation of these problems may happen with those who are uncut also?

Just some thoughts!

 

[midori1999]

sorry, I came across harsher than I intended in the last post.
I just mean that you should respect that other people believe differently than you. And as long as what they are doing is not seen as criminal harm or neglect to their child, its really their choice no matter what YOU think would be better for them.

Hope that makes better sense/clarifies what I meant about inflicting your opinion on others.

If you feel circumcision for non-medical reasons should be criminal, then feel free to push for a law to make it so, but please don't attack individuals who are doing it for reasons that you may not agree with.

Yes, it is their choice as long as it is within the law, you are right and therefore why would it matter to anyone what I think if they are happy that their decision is the right one?

There are actually some cases coming to court where parent's decisions to circumcise are being challenged. I will try and find the info for you.

midori - If you still want me to quote where you criticized religious beliefs, I will, just let me know. I feel I clarified my point but let me know if you still feel I unfairly attacked you on that point.

Yes, if you think I have done so I would appreciate you quoting me please as if I have I will apologise.

I don't feel you've unafirly attacked me at all, you are just giving your opinion, just like I am. No hard feelings on my part at all.

 

[lisaf]

I've actually read some of the stuff about adults suing doctors for botching or even for performing routine circumcision etc... no need to google that for me! I don't find that very compelling though as people sue over EVERYTHING these days

This is what I really hate about circumcision. That people do it blindly without being fully informed of the facts, then say 'oh, it's my religion/culture/I did what was right for my child and you can't question me'. Well actually, nothing would change if we never questioned anything, would it?

The fact is, there are plenty of Jews and Muslims who choose not to circumcise, it is not compulsory in those religions. There are plenty of people who make the wrong decisions for their child even if they are well meaning and plenty of adults in therapy as a result, why should circumcision be an exception to that rule?
There's a very good reason some of the medical community still support circumcision.

Perhaps I didn't understand what you meant, but when you said that just because someone claims they did it for religious beliefs does not mean you have no right to question it. Your comments about people being stoned and female genital mutilation were also questioning of religion. I dont' want to get into that kind of nitpicking though.

You do seem to be passionate that religion is not a reason to do it and mention that some Jewish people are fighting against it. I don't feel that its a sound arguement to those who are Jewish and feel strongly that its important to them for religious reasons. Since many Christians only go to church at Christmas, you know? Everyone practices their religion differently and it doesn't mean that anyone who is stricter or more relaxed about it is wrong. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Ember]

I don't know about how common any of these problems are in uncut men either. I've never seen an uncut penis myself, and I don't really think I have the stomach to Google it lol! I have seen a lot of cut ones, though, both in person and in pictures/video, and curves seem to be fairly common, even extreme curves seem more common than I'd have expected. Tbh, I think they all look gross except for my husband's. Have you ever just looked at one and thought "why in the world did I ever put my mouth on one of those and how did I do it without puking?!"

 

[shiner]

It gets pretty ridiculous when people are more worried about someone getting offended than they are about parents who have elective proceedures on tiny newborns because they want its genitals to be mutilated just like dear old dad's were or because a book written thousands of years ago could roughly translate to do something along those lines. Doing something because your religion says too does NOT justify it. There are plenty of things people have done in the name of one god or another that are NOT acceptable and never will be. There are many things that were once commonly done in the name of god that would have you arrested today. Just because someone says "its my religion" should NEVER mean hands off.

This is only different from female circumcision by degree not type. This is male genital mutilation. There is no medical need and you are cutting a body part with no immediate benefit. Sitting on your hands and worrying about offending everyone all the time is useless. The tides are changing right now and male mutilation will be just as socially distasteful as female very soon. It will change as people post on forums to show thier disgust and other people see the social change and reevaulate thier position.

Good for those who speak out. No one can "inflict" their opinions on others. If a parent is going to shaken by what they have read on this thread than that is for the best. Even if they get offended, the fact that they were rattled shows that they hadn't fully faced the choice. This is a lifelong choice for your child, this is a surgical proceedure on a tiny baby. If you are willing to put him though that you had better be strong enough to face your choice from all sides. If you are secure in your belief, one way or the other, no one is going to "inflict" anything on you.

If you want to be a mindless drone and just accept everyone's choices on everything, fine. But, not everything is "just a personal choice". Some things are just wrong. And when you see something wrong happing to those with no voice, the good person speaks out. It is easy to sit quietly and do nothing.

 

[hunterace]

well you telling me i'm wrong because of my decission... is insulting, not because of my choice or my beliefs, but because you are no more right than i am! i can site as many pros as you can so you saying that someones choice is wrong isn't me not facing the facts, it's you forcing your views on me.

this thred shoud be closed because it is a sensitive personal choice, and some feel the need to tell others they are wrong and judge, and they are in no position to judge anyone

 

[midori1999]

I've actually read some of the stuff about adults suing doctors for botching or even for performing routine circumcision etc... no need to google that for me! I don't find that very compelling though as people sue over EVERYTHING these days

This is what I really hate about circumcision. That people do it blindly without being fully informed of the facts, then say 'oh, it's my religion/culture/I did what was right for my child and you can't question me'. Well actually, nothing would change if we never questioned anything, would it?

The fact is, there are plenty of Jews and Muslims who choose not to circumcise, it is not compulsory in those religions. There are plenty of people who make the wrong decisions for their child even if they are well meaning and plenty of adults in therapy as a result, why should circumcision be an exception to that rule?
There's a very good reason some of the medical community still support circumcision.

Perhaps I didn't understand what you meant, but when you said that just because someone claims they did it for religious beliefs does not mean you have no right to question it. Your comments about people being stoned and female genital mutilation were also questioning of religion. I dont' want to get into that kind of nitpicking though.

You do seem to be passionate that religion is not a reason to do it and mention that some Jewish people are fighting against it. I don't feel that its a sound arguement to those who are Jewish and feel strongly that its important to them for religious reasons. Since many Christians only go to church at Christmas, you know? Everyone practices their religion differently and it doesn't mean that anyone who is stricter or more relaxed about it is wrong. Hope that makes sense.

The legal cases weren't about people sueing, they are about people questioning whether circumcision is actually legal within UK law as it stands. It looks like they will get at least as far as court.

And yes, I am questioning religion, not critiscising it, or any individual's beliefs, which is what you said I was doing. Are you saying it is wrong to question religion? (or anything else for that matter?)

I'm not actually sure whether I think relgion is a reason to circ or not ((although I am veering towards not, but then I am entitled to my opinion) but what I am against is people choosing to circ without the proper reasearch. That does happen, some people have even admitted on this thread they did it and regretted it later on. People who don't research properly may be from all sorts of backgrounds, but there is no reason people who follow whatever religion should be assumed to have always done their research.

 

[shiner]

No one is forcing their views on anyone. That would entail possibly driving to where you are and physically preventing the procedure from happening. Otherwise, my views are simply stated to be ignored or embraced as you see fit. Everyone gets to have thier views. You don't get to negate my views because you feel like a victim. If you are uncomfortable with what you are reading, perhaps you should read more.

It is my view that this is WRONG. And, I get to have my view even if it somehow offends you. I view what you are doing as...WRONG. Just like I would view it as wrong if you were doing the same to your little girl. And I care way less about insulting you than I do about expressing disgust at a practice that harms a baby who is incapable of defending itself. Or offending you. Or really anything that has to do with your feelings.

In my view you are hurting your kid because your imaginary friend told you to. If you are offended by that I am not sure I can help you. I am not changing my opinion on religion to make you feel more secure with your own religious views.

 

[Ember]

The biggest objection I have to doing anything for religious reasons, especially something that can be harmful or even cause death like circumcision, isn't that I object to the religious views at all. I understand that there are people with different beliefs than me. I object to it because most things like this start out from something far different, like the way the Jewish religious ceremony used to be a simple cut and the sucking of a few drops of blood, not full on removal. Most christians that I have asked have told me that they circumcise because their religion says so. I then ask why it says so, and they usually respond simply with "because Jesus was circumcised," which isn't true. Not the way we know it today. He had the original rite performed, the simple cut. And then later in the christian bible, there are many passages saying that it is no longer necessary, and even some that flat out say not to do it. The point is that, within any society, including any religious society, there will always be people who interpret things wrong, or even people who intentionally convince others that something is different than it was originally intended. You have to research the origins of some things to find out what was originally intended, what the true traditions of the religion really are.

I am not bashing anyone's religion at all. I am simply pointing out that any religion can get warped over time, and things can move away from what the specific deity/deities really intended.

 

[Palestrina]

[ Again, you are rude. No one is 'hiding behind cultural and religious laws.' I am openly practicing my cultural and religious beliefs-- not hiding behind them. And because I live in the wonderful United States of America, I can practice whatever I want to practice. It's called religious tolerance. Perhaps you've heard of it?
No one here is talking about stoning their children to death, or denying their daughters education, or beating our children mercilessly. It is completely outrageous to compare all of those things with a religious circ. Circ'ing my boys is not a 'heinous' crime. It is a jewish right, performed on the eighth day of our baby's life as a physical symbolization of our relationship with our chosen God. Obviously, not everyone has the same religion as me. That's clearly evident. I'm not saying "HEY-- JEWISH IS THE RIGHT WAY TO BE, YOUR WRONG" But you seem really determined to say that my religion is wrong, and that you are right. You're not! No one is right! No one is wrong! It's a personal belief-- and you greatly offending something that I am very passionate about. You think that parents who circ should be made to feel guilty and ultimately punished? How can you say that? What gives you the right to tell me that I am 'manipulating' my child, and that I should feel guilty and be punished? I am doing a religious practice, because I love my faith. It is what we do. I don't care if "A lot of Jews no longer do circs." Guess what? I'm Jew that does, so get off my religion. Don't say it's "something stupid" that God is telling me to do. In the event that you post again, please do so with less bashing of other peoples beliefs. Please share your opinion, without trying to hurt others. Thank you.

.

You seem to be taking this debate as if it's a personal attack on you and your religion. It's not, it's a debate and it has absolutely nothing to do with you. Why not compare circumsicions to stoning a girl, cutting her off education, or beating a child? Lots of people have claimed to do these things in accordance with their religion. The degree of horrificness is in the eye of the beholder I guess. Maybe you're immune to the thought that the baby feels pain during circumcision. To my sensibilities it's all the same, causing unecessary harm and saying your religion told you to do it.

Please don't misquote me, I never said that you are manipulating your child. I said that you are mutilating your child.

There are people in this world that will stand up for those who can't stand for themselves. I mean someone had to stand up to Hitler. Someone had to stand against slavery. Someone had to stand for women's rights. I just happen to be someone who stands against genital mutilation. Call it rude if you must.

 

[lisaf]

And yes, I am questioning religion, not critiscising it, or any individual's beliefs, which is what you said I was doing. Are you saying it is wrong to question religion? (or anything else for that matter?)

I'm sorry I said you were criticizing, it was the wrong choice of word.
There is nothing wrong, and plenty of good in questioning religion, social norms, tradition etc. But I do stipulate that its an individual's right to question it, not each individual's right to question everyone else.