Ugh I get it, you LOVE breastfeeding...

[cat lover]

Also, I find it quite ironic that they are so proud of giving their child BM when they don't even vaccinate them. Newsflash - BM is amazing stuf but will not stop their children getting diptheria, meningitis or any of the other terrible diseases!!!!!!!

That's the problem, some mothers (not too many thank God!) are so religiously into breastfeeding that they think it's a lifetime vaccine against everything. They'll have a hard time when their kids grow up and realise that BM is not even a lifetime vaccine against ear infections and gastros.

I believe someone took offense at that post, but it was just a bit of a quip about OP's Facebook friends whose updates she chose to hide! Like Cat lover, I was being a bit funny, no need to take it seriously, let alone personally.

Like Celi84, I was actually joking and trying to be funny and I think some people have taken offense. I combi feed, and to the PP who mentioned my post about NIP, I actually NIP myself and was simply saying that I woud not mention it on FB. I was trying to be funny but clearly it backfired and / or some people cant take a joke. Anyone who has ever seen me post on here will know that all I ever do is try to support the OP. If I disagree with a thread I do not comment on it, and all I was trying to do here was support the OP. The exact reason I only ever post on threads where I want to support or help the OP is for the exact reason that I do not want to get drawn in to arguments. For what its worth, Summer Rain has helped me out before, and I admire her knowledge and expertise of both BF and FF. Lets support each other not argue, thats what this site is for.

 

[celi84]

that's exactly right Cat lover. Unfortunately, it is difficult to convey a tone to what we write on forums, especially if we can't be bothered with smileys.

Summer_rain and myself have briefly talked about bf and ff before without arguing. I think here she thought I was seriously slating anyone who promotes bf and generalising them by making an association with not vaccinating. I actually was not. I was definitely not talking about the 8 out of 10 new mums in the UK who try bf. Only about OP's Facebook friends who happen to be against formula AND vaccinations at the same time. The bit that most schocked me was the vaccination issue, and I have already explained why in another post.

Very much like Cat Lover, I don't bother with threads when I strongly disagree with the OP and most ppl who answer. I don't like arguments and I think forums are not the best place for it. However, it is inevitable to have an "us and them" feeling on certain threads, because there are a lot of aspects to parenting that ppl disagree on. Bf vs FF is one in probably a million. I have seen ppl here debating about smacking or not smacking, about homebirth vs hospital birth, and once I saw a thread from a woman whose DH was smoking weeds and some ppl commented that it was foolish to try for a baby with him. That thread had to be locked cuz it got completely out of hand. I think this thread is far from reaching that point, so let's keep it this way.

Promise not to make any more (silly) jokes

 

[cat lover]

Well put honey

 

[summer rain]

BTW, I didn't say all bf mothers were hippies either, in fact most of my relatives and friends who have had their babies already do bf or have done and they're far from being hippies. They're not against formula, disposable nappies, medication or vaccines. I was just talking about a small minority of mothers who seem to have extreme beliefs, IMO.

In my former post, when I was talking of BM being said to protect against gastros and ear infections, well, that's word for word what is said on my pregnancy record that was given by my NHS midwife. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if some ppl believe it until their children have an ear infection or a gastro

Judging by your past posts for some reason you have a real problem with research that says that BF babies are less likely (note it says less likely not 100% that they won't) to develop certain childhood illnesses or to be hospitalised with certain illnesses, and obsessed with proving it wrong. Why? I know exactly the type of material you're talking about and nowhere does it say that BF 100% protects against anything just it is statistically less likely. 'Protects against' is not the same as 'completely prevents' and I've never personally seen any BF mum or blog or body of information make such a claim. I personally do believe BF has some protective immune factors and antibodies in it and also since breastmilk is sterile; that pretty much rules out any problems with contamination or incorrect preperation-these are some reasons why I personally chose to BF, but that doesn't mean 100% protection from illness just as FF doesn't mean 100% certainty of illness. A lot of the increased risk when FF can be ruled out completely by correct preperation and storage of formula. In my immediate family it is true the babies who were FF have had more ear infections, stomach problems and certain other conditions than those that were BF but that may be partly to do with certain allergies that most people in our family have particularly to milk products one of the side effects of which is suspectibility to certain infections and damage to the bowels etc. With my own children my eldest has always got the most ill and he is the only one who has had to have antibiotics on many occasions but its my second youngest who was FF from 3.5 months onwards who still has allergies and eczema, whereas all my others have outgrown them within the first two years. In his case though he had such severe allergies to foods via my milk that there really was no other option but to gradually stop BFing him so I did what was best at the time, as do all parents and otherwise he is a thriving happy boy.

Also you talk about all these 'extreme BF mothers' all the time; there really are not as many of them out there as you seem to want to believe and as I said there are extreme 'natural parenting' FF mothers as well- including some on this site who I have seen posts from telling mums if they use disposables their baby is very likely to end up with fertility problems or cancer in later life. I just wonder why you seem to have such a problem in particular with mums who happen to BF and who are also objectionable pushy people?

Obsessed with proving it wrong? Talking about extremists all the time? I think you exagerate a little bit. I occasionally post on threads about the debate, because I think there is a lot of pressure on mums-to-be, like me, and I get the impression, from hearing other ppl's experience, that there is not much guidance given to them. I have a doubt about the stats just because around me, I know plenty of formula babies who are now grown up and are not (especially) sickly, or asthmatic, overweight, etc. and among the babies I know who were breastfed for a while, some of them have allergies or asthma, or are full of colds. Maybe this is the wrong sample that I know

As for disposable nappies, I have absolutely never looked at the issue and never commented on it. That's the first time I hear that it might cause fertility pbs and cancer. You say some natural parents ff? I can't help being surprised because it seems paradoxical to me.

As for extreme bf-ers, I have not seen them on BnB but I have elsewhere, on FB, on TV and in real life. There are not that many (that's what I keep saying!!) but they are quite vocal, and it seems that I am not the only one in this thread to feel that.

Even in the 'natural parenting' section on here; many of the staunchest natural parents are FF some even through choice from birth, it may surprise you that not all 'natural parents' try to BF or even choose to, but its true. After being a parent for over 7 years I have realised that you can never neatly categorise and label parents, particularly not by feeding method. The thread I am talking about where links to articles were posted about disposables causing fertility problems and possibly cancer, wasn't even about reuseables it was the OP wanting to know a better brand to use of disposables so was completely unwarranted, the person who posted the links is a FFer and I have seen several other incidents of this also. Not just BFers who give unwarranted, unhelpful advice here, on FB or IRL. Incidentally I use disposables and don't know anyone who uses cloth, even BFers in real life-so you can scratch that stereotype out. Also although it may be more due to the culture here; in the UK FFers are just as anti-circ as BFers, if not more so (as the OP commented on her BF friends being anti-circ). I am not anti-circ and my boys are circumcised btw.

Statistics are based on fact; so just because it isn't your experience (and to be fair you haven't BF or FF any baby yet) doesn't mean it isn't true or that the statistics are made up somehow, as I said a lot of the illness/infections due to FF is due to incorrect preperation of formula, incorrect or no sterilisation, incorrect storage or contaminated batches of formula; illness from all of which can be largely prevented. With the BF babies who have health problems such as allergies or eczema, it may well have been worse if they as an individual were FF from the start, no-one knows for sure. Also there will be a difference between a baby EBF for 6 months (very few are including my own boys) and one who is partially FF from some point and has solids introduced before six months. Many of the studies showing certain benefits to BF are based on EBF until six months babies. This doesn't mean there are no benefits from partial BF but the very much reduced likelihood of certain health problems may be only the case in the EBF until 6 months category. I think studies on such issues are useful to both BF and FF mums as if you choose not to or are unable to BF you can then take steps to FF as safely as possible, and virtually eliminate any increased risk of illness. Scientists do studies on so many things and the studies regarding BF are not some kind of conspiracy to slight FF or make FF mums feel bad or guilty about their choices. Nor do I think such studies are misleading and that health bodies shouldn't quote such studies when they talk about the potential benefits of BF-but definitely more should be done in the way of hands on support and training as opposed to just promotion.

Yes there is a lack of guidance out there about BF particularly from the NHS but I don't see how that is the fault of BF mums?

 

[Pramaholic86]

It's usually FF's that get a little tetchy on the subject of BF.
We all know it's better than FF so as a mummy I'll always feel guilty for not doing it, even after a week in hospital trying
I do think some mums are a little 'aggressive' about feeding, for example, shopping the other day, a woman sitting right in the window of an empty cafe feeding her LO in full view of everyone, almost daring someone to give her a look? I did inwardly groan but if I'm honest because I'm envious of those who BF, I really wanted to. That said, I'd probably prefer to do it somewhere a little more private, not in the window. And definitely wouldnt post about it on fb, same as I wouldn't post about what I'd eaten, how many nappies changed etc.

I do think that the whole BF bs FF is far more prevalent on here than RL though!

 

[summer rain]

It's usually FF's that get a little tetchy on the subject of BF.
We all know it's better than FF so as a mummy I'll always feel guilty for not doing it, even after a week in hospital trying
I do think some mums are a little 'aggressive' about feeding, for example, shopping the other day, a woman sitting right in the window of an empty cafe feeding her LO in full view of everyone, almost daring someone to give her a look? I did inwardly groan but if I'm honest because I'm envious of those who BF, I really wanted to. That said, I'd probably prefer to do it somewhere a little more private, not in the window. And definitely wouldnt post about it on fb, same as I wouldn't post about what I'd eaten, how many nappies changed etc.

I do think that the whole BF bs FF is far more prevalent on here than RL though!

please don't feel guilty, when BF is not possible FF is a perfectly adequate substitute xx

 

[summer rain]

See what you mean, it's not just about loving bf here (nothing wrong with that), but about natural parenting that your FB friends go on about. I'd do the same, hide their updates. I used to have a FB friend like that. Interestingly, she was also one of those ppl who used her FB status as a cry for attention, to say how lonely she was feeling all the time.

It drives me nuts to see ppl who don't vaccinate their kids. How come they are admitted to school without their vaccines? Schools shouldn't accept that. There are also the ones who lash out at a mum who had a c-section because her life and her kid's depended on it. They're just looking for controversy

This is a whole other issue but its because vaccines are not legally required in the UK even in places where they are, parents can often get a dispensation on ethical or religious grounds. Also as with my sons sometimes there are reasons why certain vaccines cannot be given, either on the recommended schedule or at all, on medical grounds. Other vaccines contain egg based ingredients so that means children with an egg allergy cannot have those either. Also many children with a serious illness that compromises their immune system are barred from having most if not all vaccines. Does that mean that kids who cannot have vaccines for medical reasons should be barred from an education?

 

[Pramaholic86]

please don't feel guilty, when BF is not possible FF is a perfectly adequate substitute xx

Thanks Hun
I really think if there was more support in place from day one more mums would have success with BF. In hospital there was one horrible midwife who came in and said 'she's crying' I said yes I know, I'm trying to bf but I cant do it' and she said 'well if you can't do it we will have to do it for you' she made me feel so small and inadequate! I started FF after that. Still tried to bf in between but couldn't get the hang of it and it and had missed those vital first days by then so my milk never really came in properly.
However, if FF wasnt as easily available I would have HAD to BF!

 

[Snuffy]

However, if FF wasnt as easily available I would have HAD to BF!

I disagree with this statement strongly. If formula wasn't readily available then my daughter would have starved, since the hospital MWs insisted that we keep going and I had no milk. It's not just a case of giving up too easily for many people, BF physically isn't an option.

 

[Pramaholic86]

However, if FF wasnt as easily available I would have HAD to BF!

I disagree with this statement strongly. If formula wasn't readily available then my daughter would have starved, since the hospital MWs insisted that we keep going and I had no milk. It's not just a case of giving up too easily for many people, BF physically isn't an option.

I said 'I would have had to BF' not 'Every woman would have to BF' my daughter would have lost even more weight than she already had, I'm grateful for formula I just wish I had tried harder and had more support and I certainly wasn't implying that FF are just not trying.
My circumstances were different to yours so I'm not sure you can compare the two?

 

[Snuffy]

However, if FF wasnt as easily available I would have HAD to BF!

I disagree with this statement strongly. If formula wasn't readily available then my daughter would have starved, since the hospital MWs insisted that we keep going and I had no milk. It's not just a case of giving up too easily for many people, BF physically isn't an option.

I said 'I would have had to BF' not 'Every woman would have to BF' my daughter would have lost even more weight than she already had, I'm grateful for formula I just wish I had tried harder and had more support and I certainly wasn't implying that FF are just not trying.
My circumstances were different to yours so I'm not sure you can compare the two?

I'm not trying to compare the two - I am just pointing out that formula NEEDS to be readily available. It can't be made more difficult for those who have no choice but to use it so others don't have the temptation.

 

[Pramaholic86]

Ok, but if you read my post I didn't say otherwise..?
I am aware that not all women are able to breastfeed.. However, in my situation it was down to poor technique, I couldn't get the latch, I think if I had had some help or known about support groups etc at the time I may have been able to BF. Hence *if* (not should) formula wasn't so easily available, I would have had to BF, but it is, so I didn't.
Nowhere in my post did I say that it should be made more difficult for those who have no choice so people wouldnt have the temptation?!

 

[lovealittle1]

Stuff all these reports, surveys, research if you want to FF or BF then do it. Its your choice.
Its annoying when people insist that BF is the way forward, it only is best if it works for mother and baby. A FF happy baby is better than a BF struggling mummy, but it works both ways, if you can BF then thats great.
Not everyone finds it easy.

I agree - everyone needs to do what is best for their family.

I just want to say though i was a BF struggling mummy and i didn't find it easy. Not everyone that bf's has it easy in the beginning.

 

[celi84]

@Summer_rain,
I have never targetted any bf-mums or blamed them for the lack of support. If I had, I would have alienated one of my cousins who bf her kids for 9 months, and several other ppl who I really appreciate, some of who encourage me to bf my daughter and have told me they would be there to help if I need, much more than NHS can dream of. I have already said it, the post that you were obviously offended by was only a quip about OP's friends, not about the bulk of mothers who at least try to bf. So please don't take offense, because not only it was a joke (maybe a silly one), but even if it wasn't, it would not apply to you.
About the vaccination issue, I don't plan to have my kid vaccinated against chicken pox. I haven't had a flu jab because I don't fit in the high-risk category. Therefore, I am not saying that everybody should be vaccinated against everything, but there are some illnesses that are so serious that IMO, it is very risky not to have the jabs. I thought that the MMR one for ex would be a must to attend school, because when I came to the UK, I was asked by a nurse if I had done it. As I couldn't find documentation to certify that I had, she asked if I worked at a school or nursery, cuz she seemed to think it was essential if I did. Now if kids are not vaccinated at all, they are not automatically deprived of education cuz some parents choose to homeschool, which is a choice I actually respect.

Now the other debates, like reusable or disposable nappies and circumcision, I have not and will not enter them.

 

[summer rain]

please don't feel guilty, when BF is not possible FF is a perfectly adequate substitute xx

Thanks Hun
I really think if there was more support in place from day one more mums would have success with BF. In hospital there was one horrible midwife who came in and said 'she's crying' I said yes I know, I'm trying to bf but I cant do it' and she said 'well if you can't do it we will have to do it for you' she made me feel so small and inadequate! I started FF after that. Still tried to bf in between but couldn't get the hang of it and it and had missed those vital first days by then so my milk never really came in properly.
However, if FF wasnt as easily available I would have HAD to BF!

Some midwives are just horrible-I had one when having my eldest who said she couldn't stand the thought of ever having kids and couldn't understand why anyone wanted to have kids-erm and you're a midwife why? With my eldest I was 22 but looked 15, the staff were so patronising and told me not to bother to BF because it was too hard on me-they had absolutely no basis for saying this. I think hospitals should have formula available for emergencies but not roomfulls on every bit on the ward like some hospitals do have (including my two locals), it does seem that the hospitals that have loads of formula on hand do tend to make less effort with supporting BF than those that keep a small stock only for emergencies.

 

[MLCC]

.

 

[Aidan's Mummy]

I hear you!
Farting and periods are also "natural" and no one should FB about that!
When ppl FB about BFing they are humble-bragging "Oooh I'm a mom look at me".
It's lame, rude and insensitive.

I FF'd my son but that is so offensive. Breastmilk feeds a child and it is nessicary for their survival (if bfing) it is no where near comparable to talking about periods etc

OP- I know what you mean hun but tbh if I BF'd sucessfully I would be so proud of myself that I think I would post status's about it But you did the right thing by blocking the updates if they upset you x

 

[celi84]

I hear you!
Farting and periods are also "natural" and no one should FB about that!
When ppl FB about BFing they are humble-bragging "Oooh I'm a mom look at me".
It's lame, rude and insensitive.

I FF'd my son but that is so offensive. Breastmilk feeds a child and it is nessicary for their survival (if bfing) it is no where near comparable to talking about periods etc

OP- I know what you mean hun but tbh if I BF'd sucessfully I would be so proud of myself that I think I would post status's about it But you did the right thing by blocking the updates if they upset you x

I don't want to enter the debate about NIP or anything, because NIP is perfectly legal anyway.

Some ppl have a problem with it and say "pooing is also natural", but I don't think they mean to compare breastfeeding to toileting etc and say bf is obscene for that reason. I think they just mean that you can't justify NIP just on the ground that bf is natural, because "other things" are also natural but obscene at the same time.

 

[Farie]

If they are proud why should they not talk about it, its their facebook page. Why should they tiptoe about just in case they offend a FFer?

I FF as my LO is allergic to a variety of things incl breast milk, since i'm happy and at peace with my decision people talking about Bfing dont bother me at all

Personally I would suggest you need to make peace with FFing and be proud that you are providing great sustenance for your LO, how others feed is irrelevant.

It is a sad reflection on childrearing today that how other people do things so influences how we feel and our perception of how 'successful' we are.

 

[Frooty]

I don't mind people being over excited about breastfeeding it's a lovely thing to do, however there is no need for the bashing of formula feeding. I breastfed my lo for 6 weeks and it was very hard as he was constantly on me and i couldn't do anything and he prefered formula and i saw an improvement. I think the term breast is best isn't always true it depends on the baby and parents know whats best for their baby whether is breast or formula.