Welcome to 'Trying To Conceive Over 35'

Morning Ladies, well, just a quick one again as I'm meant to be working.

Temps have gone down again today and FF have removed my crosshairs. I have abdominal cramps today, so I'm sure AF is about to show her ugly head. When the crosshairs were in place, FF did say AF would be due tomorrow, so seems like she may be right on cue.

Can't wait for you to test Jess, fingers crossed its a :bfp:

Tracy-Terri why did FF remove your crosshairs. Does it think you weren't able to ovulate? I'm confused. My crosshairs stay once I get my period. I'm sorry that AF is about to show, :hug:

Hey, I think FF removed the crosshairs because my temps have been a lot lower this cycle than normal and not high enough for it to look like ov. I know I did ov as my boobs started hurting about 2 days after, which is normal. today is 12 or 13 days after that date and I've started spotting this afternoon, which I think shows I'm right. Oh well, eh, hopefully next cycle my temps will be much more defined and it'll produce that elusive bfp.

Jess, sorry you saw a bfn, but like Ali says, its still early days yet, POAS is so adictive. FX for you.
 
Jess- Implantation can take upward to 12 days sometimes after fertilization…so this may be an implantation dip. Glad you are keeping your chin up! :thumbup: No worries on the bfn- Ali is right, it is very early yet  Btw- No pic ? :saywhat:

Ok Coy...this picture is for you! :haha: I took the picture this morning with you in mind because I just knew you would want a picture!! :rofl:

It is my BFN...seems silly to post it though...:shrug:

R U serious?! It is never silly to post a poas pic! I am currently examining it from all angles...looking for shadows....
 
jess,sorry about your bfn but could be still early especially if your dip is implantation,we love to see poas pics like coy says we like to look at every angle/shade lol.

i had a positive opk yesterday and got cramping today on right side but also have a most annoying sore right nipple never had this before (cant figure why only one nip and not both lol)also had temp dip this morning so think ov day is gonna be cd 13 today
 
The latest...

What they thought was a 22.6 mm follicle was actually a cyst. I have 4 follicles that are between 10.5 and 13.6 mm. So, we're letting them grow a few more days. I think this is better, so yay!

All that panic for nothing, though not sure why the +OPK.

I hope everyone's day is going well.

Sorry about the BFN, Jess, but it's still early.
 
Ali- I’m sorry you had an uncomfortable night. Our crazy womens bodies :wacko: seems like your right ovary is dominant isn’t it? I am so glad you got it flushed :thumbup: What’s your next step?? When does your :spermy: arrive? Oh, on the note form yesterday. In a way it does make sense to try the $9,000.00 route…just from the perspective this will be your third try, correct? I know there are statistics concerning how many times sperm meets egg and how often it will result in pregnancy, but if you want to increase your chances I think this is a great way of doing it. You are like me- impatient and eager to try new methods!

AFM- Oh, yes, on my child waking me…I talked with dh about this a month or so ago and we have been trying to break her habit :shrug: And the baby is my reasoning for it, I can’t imagine—I’d be up ALL night long :haha: She only woke me once last night – phew! But I feel kinda miserable today, my leg and hip muscles have been cramping and those girdle muscles are stretching very hard. Babes is growing and kicking and likes to stretch out—often lol! Anyway, dh says since my center of balance has shifted that I need to stop wearing my heels and start wearing tennis shoes :sad1: But…heels make me taller :shrug: lol!

Today….got my focus on the overstuffed dirty garage :thumbup: Let me focus and tackle, maybe I’ll get it done, right?! When it gets real hot I’ll focus indoors….

Hey Coy,

Your DH is probably right about the heels, you shouldn't be wearing them! Besides, how can you be wearing heels when you are mowing the lawn or cleaning out the garage? :haha: That would be really funny :)

I hope your DD is better tonight and you get a full nights sleep!

AFM - I'm not sure which ovary is dominant. When I went for my US on CD3 I didn't have anything at all on my right ovary. So it is odd that it is hurting so much. Although the right ovary did have a giant cyst on it 11cm large, back in 2004 and I had to have surgery to remove it. So maybe there is some scarring on it that makes it ache so much more than the left? :shrug: I am having another US tomorrow as well as blood work to see how I'm responding to the Gonal F, and we'll see if there is anything on my right ovary then. As for the next steps, I keep taking the Gonal F until my follicles are nice and plump :haha: then we do an IUI and trigger, and another IUI the following day. This will happen sometime next week between Wednesday and Sunday. I have no idea when I will O as I normally O on CD 16 but the FS said I will O sooner due to the Gonal F. I got confirmation that the :spermy: will arrive at the FS sometime tomorrow, so in plenty of time for my IUIs next week, YAY!

Went out to a play with my Mom tonight, it was called the Last of the Red Hot Lovers. Pretty funny! Now I should get some :sleep: because I have to be up by 6ish tomorrow morning, UGH. They always do the US at 8am and I live 45 mins away! :haha:

Oh, and Zoe is doing much better, her eye was not scratched, but they did give me some ointment to use to help her eye heal and keep any infection out of there.
 
Ali- I’m sorry you had an uncomfortable night. Our crazy womens bodies :wacko: seems like your right ovary is dominant isn’t it? I am so glad you got it flushed :thumbup: What’s your next step?? When does your :spermy: arrive? Oh, on the note form yesterday. In a way it does make sense to try the $9,000.00 route…just from the perspective this will be your third try, correct? I know there are statistics concerning how many times sperm meets egg and how often it will result in pregnancy, but if you want to increase your chances I think this is a great way of doing it. You are like me- impatient and eager to try new methods!

AFM- Oh, yes, on my child waking me…I talked with dh about this a month or so ago and we have been trying to break her habit :shrug: And the baby is my reasoning for it, I can’t imagine—I’d be up ALL night long :haha: She only woke me once last night – phew! But I feel kinda miserable today, my leg and hip muscles have been cramping and those girdle muscles are stretching very hard. Babes is growing and kicking and likes to stretch out—often lol! Anyway, dh says since my center of balance has shifted that I need to stop wearing my heels and start wearing tennis shoes :sad1: But…heels make me taller :shrug: lol!

Today….got my focus on the overstuffed dirty garage :thumbup: Let me focus and tackle, maybe I’ll get it done, right?! When it gets real hot I’ll focus indoors….

Hey Coy,

Your DH is probably right about the heels, you shouldn't be wearing them! Besides, how can you be wearing heels when you are mowing the lawn or cleaning out the garage? :haha: That would be really funny :)

I hope your DD is better tonight and you get a full nights sleep!

AFM - I'm not sure which ovary is dominant. When I went for my US on CD3 I didn't have anything at all on my right ovary. So it is odd that it is hurting so much. Although the right ovary did have a giant cyst on it 11cm large, back in 2004 and I had to have surgery to remove it. So maybe there is some scarring on it that makes it ache so much more than the left? :shrug: I am having another US tomorrow as well as blood work to see how I'm responding to the Gonal F, and we'll see if there is anything on my right ovary then. As for the next steps, I keep taking the Gonal F until my follicles are nice and plump :haha: then we do an IUI and trigger, and another IUI the following day. This will happen sometime next week between Wednesday and Sunday. I have no idea when I will O as I normally O on CD 16 but the FS said I will O sooner due to the Gonal F. I got confirmation that the :spermy: will arrive at the FS sometime tomorrow, so in plenty of time for my IUIs next week, YAY!

Went out to a play with my Mom tonight, it was called the Last of the Red Hot Lovers. Pretty funny! Now I should get some :sleep: because I have to be up by 6ish tomorrow morning, UGH. They always do the US at 8am and I live 45 mins away! :haha:

Oh, and Zoe is doing much better, her eye was not scratched, but they did give me some ointment to use to help her eye heal and keep any infection out of there.

Ali- when you get the bloodwork done tomorrow when will you get the results? Also- the US…are they just checking follicles, etc? Yay!for :spermy: being delivered on time! That’s a lot of stress, doing all this prep work and then not have it would be terrible! Also- you mentioned it is the same donor, correct? Cool!
Re: Zoe…reminds me of a time back when I was prego with Kat. It was early morning and we were getting T (just a toddler then) ready to go as our trip to the MW was an hour twenty drive. We let our Boston Terrier out to potty and when she came back in she had a huge bottom lip! All of a sudden to dh and I’s horror it went puffy and drooped to the floor :haha: Poor baby had a bee stinger in her lip :nope: Dh was so nice and pulled it out and the vet told us to give her half a benadryl tablet. She was fine when we got home! :haha: She stopped trying to eat bees though :huh:

Oh, P.S. I had to laugh at the image of me wearing heels to mow the lawn :rofl: That would be funny...nope, I got my fave pair of black leather boots...they are falling apart but I still love them :cloud9: lol!
 
K ladies...need advice. Girls are asleep :shock: and I am starving. I forgot dinner again :nope: Here's what I have in my fridge (I know- I gotta shop...) eggs, a slice of cheese, salad, apricots, cherries, apples. Then it's either cheerios or rice crispies...:huh: Hm....
 
Hi Coy, did you go for a fruit salad with some cereal?

Well, AF has definitely arrived, so I'm countin today as CD1 of the next cycle, I have a feeling this will be another really long one this time too, which will mean that I might be able to go diving at the end of August, if I haven't O'd by then. Hubby is planning to take me diving on 22 and 23 August, then our friends are going on 1 and 2 September, so we'll see what happens.

At the moment I'm in a lot of pain, I hate being a woman sometimes, especially at Af time. Hubby has gone to Wales now, well, thats not quite right, he's at work at the moment, then as soon as he finishes, he'll be going straight to Wales, but I won't see him now until about Sunday afternoon. At least he won't be there to hear me moaning about being in pain. Going to clean the house from top to bottom while he's away. We have 3 floors to the house, so I've got to balance the vacuum on the stairs a lot to do them. What fun!!!
 
Good morning everyone! I hope life is absolutely wonderful on the fine Friday! :loopy:

Terri...I hope you are feeling a bit better. CD1 can be tough sometimes. Diving sounds like fun! I hope to do it one day. Be careful with that vacuum. Sounds like you have a lot of work to do.

Coy...what did you end up eating last night? I hope it was not the fruit...the eggs were probably the best option. You have got to quit forgetting to eat woman!!:trouble:

Ali...I am so ready to hear about your US!

FirstTry...I have my FX'd for you!

Alin...how is your one sore nipple? Honestly, that made me giggle a little.:haha: Being a woman definitely has its share of odd challenges! I hope you are getting some BD'ing in...:thumbup:

AFM...well, my temp dropped a little this morning...I think. When I woke up I was freezing! I was hot last night and had the fan blowing on high right in my face. And I took my temp and it was 97.45. But I just stayed in bed for a little while longer. So about 5 minutes later when I didn't feel so cold, I took my temp again and it was 97.73.:saywhat: So, I waited another ten minutes or so and took it again...still 97.73. :shrug: I am not sure which temp to use. I didn't do anything but reach over and pull the comforter up. I went with the lower temp just because it was the first one. Any suggestions and/or comments from you ladies who have been taking temps for a while would be appreciated.
 
jess my nipple is not sore today ty for asking i cant get my head round why was only one nipple lol,i got +opk on cd 13 we bd on cd 11,12 and 14,temp dropped cd 13 and rose a little today
 
Hi ladies! :hi:

Terri- nuts for AF :growlmad: Darn it! What has your doc said about regulating into a shorter cycle length? Is there anything they can suggest? I would LOVE to learn how to dive! I burst my eardrums as a child (bled everywhere) and my mom was totally unconcerned so didn’t get any med help until dad noticed :roll: so I have some inner ear issues. Great hearing, lol, but get dizzy and try to pass out if I bend my head backwards under water :shrug:….

Jess- yep, I went for the eggs. Stuffed ‘em up with vegetables (just the tomatoes and green onions). How did training go yesterday? What are you working on, e.g., focus muscle group, etc…Btw, I would use your initial temp of 97.45.

Alin- your bd timing is absolutely perfect! :thumbup: Got my fx’d for you this month 

Ali- where are you? We are all dieing to hear your news!!!

Phil- how are you today? Easing on the stress I hope and getting some time to relax!

AFM- Well, I was up most of the night again :growlmad: My little cuddle-bug :roll: lol….Plus cramps in my hip muscles (Jess is there a good stretch for hip muscles? :shrug: Right along the side of the hip and around down into glutes..), must be the spreading…Plus babes was kicking half the night. And I am not talking cute gentle nudges. I am talking aggressive mean kicking :growlmad: LOL! My Viking baby :cloud9: She has attitude already! We did a little work in the garage yesterday evening but picked a very bad time to start as the sun started searing through at bad angles :wacko: So gave up :haha: Will start again when it is cooler.
 
Good morning everyone! I hope life is absolutely wonderful on the fine Friday! :loopy:

Terri...I hope you are feeling a bit better. CD1 can be tough sometimes. Diving sounds like fun! I hope to do it one day. Be careful with that vacuum. Sounds like you have a lot of work to do.

Coy...what did you end up eating last night? I hope it was not the fruit...the eggs were probably the best option. You have got to quit forgetting to eat woman!!:trouble:

Ali...I am so ready to hear about your US!

FirstTry...I have my FX'd for you!

Alin...how is your one sore nipple? Honestly, that made me giggle a little.:haha: Being a woman definitely has its share of odd challenges! I hope you are getting some BD'ing in...:thumbup:

AFM...well, my temp dropped a little this morning...I think. When I woke up I was freezing! I was hot last night and had the fan blowing on high right in my face. And I took my temp and it was 97.45. But I just stayed in bed for a little while longer. So about 5 minutes later when I didn't feel so cold, I took my temp again and it was 97.73.:saywhat: So, I waited another ten minutes or so and took it again...still 97.73. :shrug: I am not sure which temp to use. I didn't do anything but reach over and pull the comforter up. I went with the lower temp just because it was the first one. Any suggestions and/or comments from you ladies who have been taking temps for a while would be appreciated.

Jess, i would stick with the first, lower one too, your temperature is bound to go up once you've started moving around, even if it is just to cover yourself up. Your temp is still way above your cover line, so still looks really good. When are you next going to test?
 
Hi ladies :hi:

Ali- where are you? We're all in suspense!! :wacko:

Jess- I second Terry- when are you going to test again???

AFM- What do you ladies think of this new name choice? Dh and I are thinking we are pretty set on the name Aeryn Alexa...what do you all think? Thinking of not using Augusta as everyone would call her Auggie for short :sick: lol! Aeryn (Air-Ee-n-) is both old Irish (peace) and Hebrew (mountain of strength) so we love the dual meanings :) and had spoken of looking for an old Hebrew name. And Alexa is Greek for defender :)
 
Terri and Coy...I am thinking I will wait to test. Perhaps after I've actually missed my period...

AFM...I am actually sitting at home on a Friday night! I love it!! :smug: I plan on getting some :sleep:!! My BF went out with his friends so I have the house, but more importantly, the REMOTE to the TV to myself!:yipee: :wohoo:
I am switching between the Olympics and Nanny McPhee Returns...and there is no one here telling me to do otherwise!

I have done really well at getting up in the mornings to take my temps at the same time...so we shall see if I continue to drop or remain the same...or go up!

Time for me to get some rest...GN!
 
Hey All :hi:

Sorry I have been away so long! It has been a busy day!

Jess - go with the first temp, and I wouldn't worry too much about the temp drop, a slight drop doesn't mean too much, it is when it plummets that AF is on its way. Are you going to test again this weekend? I hope you don't keep us in suspense!

Tracey - sorry to hear that AF came, I hope your cycle isn't too long! I wonder if there isn't anything that they can do to help you? I know that the women at my clinic that have PCOS are trying clomid, femara or injectibles, and they will help to get your cycle to be more regular, and also help you produce some nice follicles.

Alin - haha.. :haha: you made me laugh about your nipple, just one? I'm glad it isn't bothering you anymore!

Coy - I was going to suggest an omelette with veggies and cheese. They say to save the fruit for before 5pm, so breakfast or a mid-afternoon snack of fruit is good for you! Course with your blood sugar spikes, pairing it with something that is lower on the glycemic index is always smart!

AFM - got up super early and raced down to the clinic, only to find out that I was 5th in line (at 8am)! UGH. So she did the US, and my follicles didn't do ANYTHING, :nope: they were still only 7mm each. After 4 days of being on Gonal F. The good news is that I had a nice lining for day 7 of 7.4 mm and it was a triple lining, which is almost unheard of at my age. WOW! I wonder if that is from the baby aspirin? Last month it was only a double, and I wasn't taking baby aspirin. So then I went to see Donna at the clinic, and she was surprised about my follicles. She hmm'd and haw'd and finally decided to give me Menopur in addition to the Gonal F. So now I have to give myself 2 shots! LOL! I do get my blood results later in the day, as they have a mini lab on site. So Donna called later in the afternoon to tell me that my Estrogen had risen to 190, Progesterone was 1.7, FSH was 9.6 and LH was 6.8. She said that the estrogen was rising which was good, and that maybe I was just a late bloomer? I have to go back on Tuesday or Wednesday for another US and blood work, to make sure that I don't suddenly have too many follicles blossoming after the increase in meds.

I spent the rest of the day with the family, we did some work around the cottage, and then went on a picnic to the island. The doggies ran and swam, we took the kayak with us and had fun checking out the turtles and ducks. Then on the way home stopped at our friends island for a bit. When I got home I suddenly felt horrible, and a little light headed. I think I got sun stoke! I took a cool shower, drank tonnes of water and then took a nap. Woke up 40 mins later feeling much better!

:hugs: to you all :)
 
Terri and Coy...I am thinking I will wait to test. Perhaps after I've actually missed my period...

AFM...I am actually sitting at home on a Friday night! I love it!! :smug: I plan on getting some :sleep:!! My BF went out with his friends so I have the house, but more importantly, the REMOTE to the TV to myself!:yipee: :wohoo:
I am switching between the Olympics and Nanny McPhee Returns...and there is no one here telling me to do otherwise!

I have done really well at getting up in the mornings to take my temps at the same time...so we shall see if I continue to drop or remain the same...or go up!

Time for me to get some rest...GN!

Nite Jess! Sounds like a nice relaxing evening! We did the same, but my brother had the remote. We were flipping between the US coverage and the Canadian coverage of the Olympics. Lots of great swimming and diving :) I am rooting for you this month, :thumbup: :hug:
 
Ali!!!! Wow, great to hear from you--you DID keep us in suspense :rofl: Sounds like all good news :thumbup: Wondering about the follicle though, I think it is normal for slow development once in a while, I can't imagine why not: :shrug: Wow they have a shot for everything :haha: You poor lady, ouch! But you're tough...Sorry to hear about the heat stroke, I have had severe cases of that, not fun :nope: Smart lady taking the cool shower, and drinking, plus the nap. That's what I want...a cool shower, a drink, and a nap :haha: :rofl:

Jess- O.M.G. How did you get the remote all to yourself woman?? :growlmad: My dh hangs on to it all day- literally. At least when he is in the house! :haha: Seriously, I gave up on tv a long time ago...As soon as I woke up this morning though he slipped a movie in so I barked loudly that I would appreciate watching the news! :growlmad: But then I realized I was being childish and retracted my statement and just went to make breakfast. Wrong move maybe? :shrug: lol! Anyways, men are very controlling when it comes to television! I guilt him once in a while and he does like to watch chick movies with me- Sense and Sensability, period films, French Kiss, stuff like that...so as long as he is not opposed we're good to go! But I like watching terminator and stuff too, so we pretty much get along...just the choice is rarely mine! :haha:

I am off for my shower and a go to bed! :cloud9: I am totally whupped after Kat waking me so many times last night :growlmad: Little butt she didn't seem hindered by it at all, bouncing around here all day like she was on sugar! :shock:
 
Ali!!!! Wow, great to hear from you--you DID keep us in suspense :rofl: Sounds like all good news :thumbup: Wondering about the follicle though, I think it is normal for slow development once in a while, I can't imagine why not: :shrug: Wow they have a shot for everything :haha: You poor lady, ouch! But you're tough...Sorry to hear about the heat stroke, I have had severe cases of that, not fun :nope: Smart lady taking the cool shower, and drinking, plus the nap. That's what I want...a cool shower, a drink, and a nap :haha: :rofl:

Jess- O.M.G. How did you get the remote all to yourself woman?? :growlmad: My dh hangs on to it all day- literally. At least when he is in the house! :haha: Seriously, I gave up on tv a long time ago...As soon as I woke up this morning though he slipped a movie in so I barked loudly that I would appreciate watching the news! :growlmad: But then I realized I was being childish and retracted my statement and just went to make breakfast. Wrong move maybe? :shrug: lol! Anyways, men are very controlling when it comes to television! I guilt him once in a while and he does like to watch chick movies with me- Sense and Sensability, period films, French Kiss, stuff like that...so as long as he is not opposed we're good to go! But I like watching terminator and stuff too, so we pretty much get along...just the choice is rarely mine! :haha:

I am off for my shower and a go to bed! :cloud9: I am totally whupped after Kat waking me so many times last night :growlmad: Little butt she didn't seem hindered by it at all, bouncing around here all day like she was on sugar! :shock:

Coy! Thanks, I am a little worried about my 2 little follicles, but hopefully things will improve here soon! The injections are a little icky, but I can do it! BTW, the FS gave me the Menopur for free! Wasn't that nice of her? I was so surprised!

Get some :sleep: and try not to let your DD wake you up! Hopefully you can work with Kat to explain why it is important that you get a good nights sleep, and that she is a big girl now and big girls sleep through the night without waking Mommy!
 
Sounds like you have had quite a busy day. FYI about the menopur, don't know if you find that it stings. It is not as friendly of a shot as the gonal f. I just put ice on it after and it was good. They also put me on ganirelix and that needle hurt....almost felt dull or barbed at the end of it...so not fun. I talked to the nurse about it and she said plenty of people say the same things,...wondering if you had similar experience with menopur. I am really not looking forward to the progesterone in the backside muscle...nothing about that sounds fun for me. Your lining sounds great...come on follies grow. They adjusted mine a few times to see what worked so hang in there.




Hey All :hi:

Sorry I have been away so long! It has been a busy day!

Jess - go with the first temp, and I wouldn't worry too much about the temp drop, a slight drop doesn't mean too much, it is when it plummets that AF is on its way. Are you going to test again this weekend? I hope you don't keep us in suspense!

Tracey - sorry to hear that AF came, I hope your cycle isn't too long! I wonder if there isn't anything that they can do to help you? I know that the women at my clinic that have PCOS are trying clomid, femara or injectibles, and they will help to get your cycle to be more regular, and also help you produce some nice follicles.

Alin - haha.. :haha: you made me laugh about your nipple, just one? I'm glad it isn't bothering you anymore!

Coy - I was going to suggest an omelette with veggies and cheese. They say to save the fruit for before 5pm, so breakfast or a mid-afternoon snack of fruit is good for you! Course with your blood sugar spikes, pairing it with something that is lower on the glycemic index is always smart!

AFM - got up super early and raced down to the clinic, only to find out that I was 5th in line (at 8am)! UGH. So she did the US, and my follicles didn't do ANYTHING, :nope: they were still only 7mm each. After 4 days of being on Gonal F. The good news is that I had a nice lining for day 7 of 7.4 mm and it was a triple lining, which is almost unheard of at my age. WOW! I wonder if that is from the baby aspirin? Last month it was only a double, and I wasn't taking baby aspirin. So then I went to see Donna at the clinic, and she was surprised about my follicles. She hmm'd and haw'd and finally decided to give me Menopur in addition to the Gonal F. So now I have to give myself 2 shots! LOL! I do get my blood results later in the day, as they have a mini lab on site. So Donna called later in the afternoon to tell me that my Estrogen had risen to 190, Progesterone was 1.7, FSH was 9.6 and LH was 6.8. She said that the estrogen was rising which was good, and that maybe I was just a late bloomer? I have to go back on Tuesday or Wednesday for another US and blood work, to make sure that I don't suddenly have too many follicles blossoming after the increase in meds.

I spent the rest of the day with the family, we did some work around the cottage, and then went on a picnic to the island. The doggies ran and swam, we took the kayak with us and had fun checking out the turtles and ducks. Then on the way home stopped at our friends island for a bit. When I got home I suddenly felt horrible, and a little light headed. I think I got sun stoke! I took a cool shower, drank tonnes of water and then took a nap. Woke up 40 mins later feeling much better!

:hugs: to you all :)
 
I am so loving the new name choice. Sounds beautiful.



Hi ladies :hi:

Ali- where are you? We're all in suspense!! :wacko:

Jess- I second Terry- when are you going to test again???

AFM- What do you ladies think of this new name choice? Dh and I are thinking we are pretty set on the name Aeryn Alexa...what do you all think? Thinking of not using Augusta as everyone would call her Auggie for short :sick: lol! Aeryn (Air-Ee-n-) is both old Irish (peace) and Hebrew (mountain of strength) so we love the dual meanings :) and had spoken of looking for an old Hebrew name. And Alexa is Greek for defender :)
 

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