What If There Was No Formula?

[staralfur]

On one hand, I can see why some would say a world without formula would be nice.

I was encouraged right from the beginning (in hospital, eight hours after giving birth!) to supplement with formula. And at five days old I took my LO in because I was worried about if she was getting enough milk. She was clusterfeeding, but I didn't know what that meant or that it was normal. Anyway, the doctor that saw us said "Feed on demand, give formula for the times you can't keep up." So, we started combi-feeding. And my supply took a hit. Thanks to this forum I was inspired to get my supply up and stop supplementing. Without this forum, I may not even be breastfeeding anymore. Even my GP asked me at her 8wk check-up if we were still giving formula, and when I said no she kind of frowned and reminded me that it's always an option...

I never NEEDED to supplement and yet I was encouraged to. It actually makes me pretty angry because I had to go through the process of upping my supply when it would've been just fine had I exclusively breastfed for those first few weeks.

On the other hand, I think formula is 100% the right option for some people. Whether they have issues with latching, or supply, or if mentally someone just really struggles with breastfeeding, formula is a lifesaver. I don't think it's fair to say that only those who are physically incapable of breastfeeding should be prescribed formula. I think it's okay if someone runs in to pick up a tub of formula if they're completely breaking down for whatever reason. I don't think being miserable or depressed or feeling trapped in breastfeeding is a better alternative than formula.

BUT, a lot of the stress of breastfeeding in the early days could be avoided if information about clusterfeeding, latching, etc. was more readily available to everyone. I went to the so-called breastfeeding class at my hospital and they didn't mention any of that! It's also (in my opinion) totally inappropriate for doctors to be telling new, first-time moms to supplement as though it will have no effect on anything else.

 

[SnuggleMum]

Our of interest, are specialist formulas prescribed over there? In the UK you can get soya, hypoallergenic and similar formulas on prescription, I believe? Are those available to buy OTC in the uk? Interesting to know the difference between normal/specialist formulas, and how it affects use.

I agree with the decommercialisation of formula, I wish the WHO code was implemented fully, globally.

 

[TigerLady]

All good points, Staralfur.

 

[AP]

Well we are just lucky enough then to live in a world where it is available really I'm so pro-bfing don't get me wrong, but I do wonder the point in this thread and what it was really meant to achieve.

Who decides who'd get formula? Who knows. But by the time anyone decides, we'd have sick babies in neonatal units and children's hospitals til the decision would be made, crippling the NHS further.

I will forever stand by the fact that without formula and reflux formula A would only have been an even sicker baby.

I love breast feeding, I did it for 8 months, but never would I like to think formula availability would be made difficult. Motherhood is tough enough

 

[AP]

On a moderation note I am moving this to debates, it's not helpful to anyone breast feeding and steering slight off the topic of breast feeding and debating formula.

 

[TigerLady]

Our of interest, are specialist formulas prescribed over there? In the UK you can get soya, hypoallergenic and similar formulas on prescription, I believe? Are those available to buy OTC in the uk? Interesting to know the difference between normal/specialist formulas, and how it affects use.

I agree with the decommercialisation of formula, I wish the WHO code was implemented fully, globally.

I don't know. But I don't think so. Every specialized formula is on the shelf over here. If a baby needs something like soy-based formula a doctor will just suggest they go down to the market and buy it to see if it works.

Formula is also not as commericially regulated here. Free tubs are mailed to pregnant moms, massive numbers of HUGE coupons are given to pregnant and new moms. Several bottles are given away free to new moms while they are in the hospital right after birth. Even after I made it VERY clear my baby was not to get ANY drop of formula and I didn't want it near him, the nurses gave me a tote bag full of formula related products (provided to them free by formula companies) and 3 bottles of formula in single feeding bottles with nipples already on them. I had to give them back. They said "Take it, we'll just have to throw it away." I said, "I'd rather seen it thrown away. We don't need it and I don't want it."

 

[TigerLady]

On a moderation note I am moving this to debates, it's not helpful to anyone breast feeding and steering slight off the topic of breast feeding and debating formula.

I think that's a fair decision, thank you.

 

[Pixles]

=S Any excuse is a bloody good excuse. just think that if you had to go to the Drs first how meny would walk away with advice and support over just popin to asda for formula for milk because they cant be ased. Im not against formula, just think that people decide not to even try or ask for suport and give in to quickly. Maybe im wrong. but im alowed my opnion no?

 

[AP]

=S Any excuse is a bloody good excuse. just think that if you had to go to the Drs first how meny would walk away with advice and support over just popin to asda for formula for milk because they cant be ased. Im not against formula, just think that people decide not to even try or ask for suport and give in to quickly. Maybe im wrong. but im alowed my opnion no?

No you do have a point too many doctors and HV (my hV being one) dismiss breast feeding as soon as you start to have an issue. "formula" or "weaning" tends to be the answer from many, and it's something that desperately needs to be addressed.

 

[readytotry]

=S Any excuse is a bloody good excuse. just think that if you had to go to the Drs first how meny would walk away with advice and support over just popin to asda for formula for milk because they cant be ased. Im not against formula, just think that people decide not to even try or ask for suport and give in to quickly. Maybe im wrong. but im alowed my opnion no?

I think the "can't be arsed" is unnecessary. The people I know who gave up bfing early on were at their wit's end and just couldn't cope - it wasn't through lack of trying.
Also, I have very little faith that gps would be the correct people to give that support. Also, the support needs to be in hospital. By the time you get home it can be too late as the nipple damage may already be unbearable. When I asked a midwife in hospital to check my latch because bfing was excruciating I was told it was normal for bfing to hurt at first. The only reason I continued was because my Lo was a very efficient feeder and only fed for 15mins at a time. Turns out she had tongue tie. No one ever looked until I asked.

 

[TigerLady]

=S Any excuse is a bloody good excuse. just think that if you had to go to the Drs first how meny would walk away with advice and support over just popin to asda for formula for milk because they cant be ased. Im not against formula, just think that people decide not to even try or ask for suport and give in to quickly. Maybe im wrong. but im alowed my opnion no?

This is one of the reasons that the idea of presenting it as "risks to FF" instead of "benefits of BF" intrigues me. I'm still not sure that is exactly the right answer because I don't like the idea of wrapping up even more shame in FF for those who try to BF but can't. However, for those that choose to FF without even attempting or considering BF, I do believe they should understand there are risks to that choice. I think BF should be presented, strongly, as the NATURAL and expected starting point for any baby. For those babies who cannot BF, FF is a tool to help them thrive in the best way they can. Just like you'd put a sick baby on medicine even if it had certain potential side effects. You'd give a baby formula before you'd let them starve or be fed something less good! But you'd at least try to BF first.

And doctors often DON'T give good BF advice, sadly.

It's all very complicated for sure. Which is why I got back to normalizing BF. Hopefully someday it will finally come to where everyone just expects that every baby will be BF, but is understanding and accepting of when some are not. That way most babies get BF as their best start and, for those that can't, there is no shame involved in FF for them or their parents.

In a perfect world, eh??

 

[MrsPOP]

You have every right to an opinion Pixles, just as I have every right to disagree with you Not every FF mummy CBA with BFing!

As a GP myself I'm privy to the lack of training we as Drs receive with regards to BFing and it's terrible. I suppose I'm glad in one way I failed because I know now how to encourage a mum to stick with BFing in a safe manner and to direct her when it is medically indicated to *consider* supplementation for a small time period and also to guide if that mother decides she doesn't want to BF.

The availability of formula isn't a valid reason any more for the reduced BFing rates. It's poor antenatal education and the poor postnatal BF support that is the reason.

Plus there is pressure to FF from older generations and the only way to dispel that is by educating preggy mums, not removing formula.

I am extremely pro-BFing and as I am coming from a lady who fell slap bang into the pit of about a gazillion booby-traps I think that myself and my BF failure peers are an untapped resource when it comes to the future of BFing. We were the ones who were let down, we know what went wrong, we know what should change in order to stop what happened to us happening to other people.

I for one dream of a day where people realise being anti-FF is pointless and the real place to make a difference is by focusing on making BF education the best it can be.

I will do my part by supporting those who have been let down, encouraging those who can be saved from BF failure and if by the grace of all that is holy I am successful in BFing any further children I may have, I will become a BF peer supporter and give back in receipt of the help I'm going to demand from the people who are meant to help me and also I'm gratitude for the support I'm sure I will get on BnB

 

[Rhi_Rhi1]

I am always confused by what people mean by lack of breastfeeding support ? i know this is ignorant, but what can be offered to help ? i genuinely don't know, at my hospital, as soon as i gave birth i was asked if i was breast feeding, and within minutes the "breast feeding support team" were in my room lol ! so from feed no 1 i had two women in there helping me, i assumed this is/was standard practice. If it isn't then this is something that every hospital should offer.

 

[SnuggleMum]

I am always confused by what people mean by lack of breastfeeding support ? i know this is ignorant, but what can be offered to help ? i genuinely don't know, at my hospital, as soon as i gave birth i was asked if i was breast feeding, and within minutes the "breast feeding support team" were in my room lol ! so from feed no 1 i had two women in there helping me, i assumed this is/was standard practice. If it isn't then this is something that every hospital should offer.

I think rather than a lack of support, there is a lack of decent support. MWs and HVs only have very, very basic training in most cases, and aren't really qualified to help with problems like difficulty latching.

My experience was lots of help was offered, but it was poor quality. In hospital, 8 different MWs all tried to help with 'positioning and attachment' but none were able to spot that we had a complex problem that needed specialist support. Usually in these cases (baby not latching) instead of referring to someone who is qualified to help, formula/bottles are suggested. None of the HCPs I saw after birth were experienced with dealing with exclusive expressing, and gave out-dated advice (on how to bottle-fed with breast-milk, how much to give, pumping schedule) and none were able to advise on accessing a hospital grade pump.

Poor advice (usually related to topping up with formula or giving a bottle) and not offering the reassurance about what is normal newborn behaviour often lead to Mums stopping feeding before they want to.

Another big issue is medication and breastfeeding - how many women are told they have to stop feeding to take medication? I've been told it several times, but further research and speaking to someone with the knowledge needed, has led me to continue breastfeeding while taking essential medications. Women are often told to stop breastfeeding to take medication for PND. Things like thrush are mistreated, staph infections are misdiagnosed. Doctors refuse to prescribe medications for diagnosed conditions like low milk supply (there are treatment options for genuinely low supply, which although rare, does happen - most cases can be resolved without medication though) or vasospasm. Women are told to stop feeding for x-rays and other procedures.

 

[MrsPOP]

Well when I had my daughter (in a world renowned women's hospital) I was in recovery from my EMCS for about 2 hours as my blood pressure was low. I had some skin to skin after about an hour post section and my daughter was rooting, but I was so spaced out I didn't realise at the time but the midwife was more concerned about filling in her paperwork than helping me.

Then I get transferred to the ward, after 36 hours of labour and post section I wasnt exactly top of my game. I was left for 4 hours before a MW came to see me (although I buzzed a few times and was told they would only be a minute) *she shouted at me for not feeding my daughter. Considering I couldn't even get my daughter out of her crib as I was oust section and couldn't move my fricking legs I felt that was unfair.

So I had MW assistants trying to help me latch. Which compromised of them forcing my nipple into my daughter's mouth inbetween trying to syringe off colostrum to feed her.

The next day I saw the BF peer supporter who spent just 5 mins with me, talking to me about various holds but because my daughter was fast asleep (post section drowsiness and developing jaundice) she didn't see her latch.

The 2 nights I was in I asked for help overnight. The MWs were too busy feeding the formula fed babies so their mums could get some sleep whilst I spent all night with a crying baby trying to get her to latch. The mum next to me kept tutting and making bitchy comments because Alice kept crying.

The second night a She-Hulk of a MW assistant came in to 'help', she shoved my nipple in my daughter's mouth, shouted at me that if I don't establish breastfeeding I wouldnt be able to go home and stormed out of the cubicle saying she would be back in 10 minutes to see how I got on. She never came back.

The next day I was so desperate to go home as the treatment I received was so awful.

We were discharged without any MW or BF supporter actually seeing a successful feed.

That day and night, my daughter got drowsier and drowsier and more orange by the second. She looked like she had fell head first into a vat of the darkest fake tan you could get.

My husband and I spent 10 frantic hours trying to get her to feed. We phoned the national BF helpline twice, we did everything Kellymom suggested and I was terrified as the hours went by that she was getting dehydrated. We ended up giving her 30mls of formula whilst I cried in shame because she guzzled that stuff down straight away.

I spent that night hand expressing 7mls of colostrum and trying to BF her as often as possible. My milk came in the next day.

The MW came out, immediately weighed her and sent us straight to hospital as she had lost over 1lb in weight in the 3 days after she was born and was pure orange. She didn't bother checking the latch or discuss topping up whilst offering bf support home, just straight to hospital.

We get to hospital and bloods show she is just under the treatment line for light therapy but she was dehydrated. They wanted to see her having a good feed off me and then we could go home.

We tried and tried but my daughter would scream and frantically shake her head every time she got near my engorged breasts. A Bf nurse was sent in to help and she kept trying to force my nipple into my daughter's mouth inbetween taking my screaming child away from me and shouting at her saying 'you need to stop this right now or your mummy will give up'.

My husband say that hour was worse than anything he saw in labour and we were all in tears by the end of it.

So the Doctors admitted us for 'breastfeeding support'. That consisted of sticking me on a pump whilst topping up with formula. No-one knew how to work the pump, no-one bothered to see us try to latch. The consultant the next day sternly told me I mustn't give up BFing.

I asked to see a BF nurse or SOMEBODY. I got a Healthcare assistant who had been on some shitty course who put me on a double pump, brought me water and never bothered to help me feed. She said it was probably engorgement.

We were discharged after 2 days. I pumped and pumped whilst topping up. It was the weekend so no BF groups, the BF office in the hospital was shut. My MW sent out an assistant who refused to help me, she just wanted to weigh my daughter and go.*

By the end of that week my daughter started refusing my precious EBM. I can only assume that the extreme stress, anaemia and lack of food because I was frantic with worry made my BM taste like crap.

It was after then I hit rock bottom and gave up. Maybe I wasn't strong like some others but I was ready to throw myself under a train with worry and no sleep for a fortnight.

I tried relactation on my own for 18 weeks, although in retrospect it wasn't an issue with me or my milk my daughter has a lip and tongue tie and nobody had thought to check it.

Maybe I should have gone to BF groups but by then I was so ashamed of my failure and I thought that despite accessing many different types of help there wasn't anything they could do for me and it was clearly me being a defective woman.

It was only by being on here I knew what LTs and TTs were... too late for me but at least I finally knew.

Although in a way I'm glad we were readmitted as they found my daughter has a heart defect but I would have given anything to have had someone who knew what they were doing with regards to Bf support.

I feel ok about what happened now because I started the thread in my siggy to raise awareness of the emotional trauma BF failure can cause. I know that has upset some people on BnB which is unfortunate but as I have said previously it is the experiences of people like me where future BF peer supporters can learn where the real battle lies. I was not enticed by a pretty can of cheap formula because I couldn't be arsed, I went through one of the most traumatic times of my life that affected my bond with my daughter and also lost me some friends who are BFers as they felt my advocacy of BF failure was promoting Formula.

So yes, I did receive support but it wasn't good enough support to help me be a BFer.

Educating MWs about proper latch techniques and holds. Having better access to Bf peer supporters, over weekends etc. Even having Internet help like over Skype so people can observe latches.

I'm going to do what I can about educating local GPs on BFing support over the next year too.

 

[feedindy]

https://www.webchildhoodmuseum.com/index_files/Page368.htm

an interesting link to history of feeding infants.

 

[SnuggleMum]

Carrying on with the 'no formula' thing, assuming the world is the same as it is now, but for some reason there is no formula, I wonder what would happen. No doubt many babies would thrive on breastmilk (donor or Mums own) in the developed world, so there might be less strain on the NHS in that respect. How many babies would be worse off because of no formula (so either cows milk or food or something, if they couldn't get donor milk). Add to that, how many babies would benefit in the developing world, where formula marketing is its most unethical and causes the most harm? I don't suppose we'd ever know, and it probably sounds heartless to even ponder it, but I wonder which scenario (now vs no formula) would have the greatest good for the greatest number?

 

[midori1999]

if there was no formula it would be just like it is in the wild. you'd have runts as for whatever reason some animals just don't grow well & formula is more fattening. you'd also have starvation.

i'm sorry, but you are incorrect. Formula is not 'more fattening' than breastmilk at all. In fact, ounce for ounce, breastmilk (on average) has slightly more calories and fat.

As for 'in the wild'. Runts occur in the wild (or in domestic settings where care is lacking) in animals that have large litters where there is competition for food/teats. Some animals have litters that where the numbers exceed the numbers of teats and some young are more 'pushy' than others, so some get less milk. It has nothing to do with the type of milk they are getting, but the amount of it. That said, humans are neither 'in the wild' nor animals that have large litters...

I'm definitely very pro-BF and encourage it strongly. However, never would I wish there to be no formula. It is absolutely a life saving tool when it is needed. I do think it is used much more than it is needed -- but that is no reason to eliminate it altogether. Better education for both medical professionals and moms-to-be is definitely the way to go.

I agree completely. Anyone who wishes there was no formula is bonkers!

I think, formula should only be avalable to buy with a prescription from the Drs after youve proven you cant. or have a bloody good excuse. I think the fact its easy to get. and that bottles are "pretty" attracts to meany who then dont want to try breastfeeding. and alot. regret it after!.

I would happily breastfeed or donate milk for free to anyone who needed it! and im not the only one.

If there was no formula then we would find a way! ... if we couldent. we wouldent be here! period!.. Are we dead? i think not!

Even if formula were only on prescription, it would still be available to plenty fo women who don't 'need' it, because health professionals know very little about breastfeeding or how it works on the whole and plenty would happily prescribe formula (just as they advise it now) when it wasn't needed and in many cases, where women do not want to use it.

Babies did used to die because there was no formula. Even now, formula is a valuble product that saves lives.

I would like to see everyone breastfeed in an ideal world, but forcing women is not the way to get there and as things stand, some women just do not wish to breastfeed and that is their choice.

 

[Aidan's Mummy]

This is still VERY raw for me and my LO is currently in hospital poorly so sorry if I come across as 'angry' or emotional

I wanted to BF this time around SO much. So much so I didn't think failure was an option and I didn't buy formula 'just in case'. With my first son I had PND and I was convinced that I wouldn't get it this time because I was going to be BFing. When Oliver was born bfing started off great and it continued to be great. He latched well, fed well, barely and soreness and I found it simple. But when Oliver was a week old that familiar dark cloud began to creep over me, I started to become tearful, my bond with Oliver began to fade and I could feel myself distancing myself from him. I started to dread feeds and cry when he needed feeding because I just didn't want to do it; I didn't want him near me. I realised that PND was setting in again and at this point I hated breastfeeding. But I carried on its best for him and I thought it would aid my bond. But the opposite happened, me dreading the feeds caused my bond with him to worsen, I began to resent him and when I looked at him I just felt nothing. This Sunday I hit rock bottom, I posted on here but it didn't seem to help. Then Oliver woke for a feed, I ended up lying on my landing in the foetal position, covering my ears sobbing. Because I didn’t want to feed him, I wanted to run away as far as I could and never come back. I was having thoughts of self-harm as I thought my boys would be better off without me. My OH rang my mum and my parents came round, my mum actually rocked me in her arms like a child and I felt as helpless as one tbh. I just broke down and it all came flooding out. On Monday I gave him and Oliver had his first formula feed. Honestly? It felt like a HUGE weight had been lifted, I felt better in myself tbh. I was still very down but I felt better. On Wednesday I was cuddling him and for the first time in weeks I was ENJOYING IT, I was kissing my baby and talking to him. The bond was and still is slowly returning. Unfortunately he is now n hospital with a urine infection (nothing to do with stopping bfing I have been told) and whilst he has been in my maternal instinct has been growing stronger. Although I'm still blaming myself and wondering if there is anything I could have done different.

I talked to a PND support worker and like she said I am ill, I didn't choose to be like this and I didn't choose to feel the way I did/do. So if it wasn't for formula I think my sons would have eventually lost their mum as I think I would have either had a complete mental breakdown or I would have made an attempt to take my own life. If that is just an 'excuse' to some, if you think I should have tried harder or I should have sought a doctor’s permission to switch to formula then that is your opinion. But I refuse to feel guilty for doing what is best for me and my son, and it is what's best as he would have suffered in the long run emotionally due to me constantly rejecting him and seeing me in tears most of the time.
x

 

[MrsPOP]

to Aidan's mummy, you are a brave lady and a wonderful mummy xxx