Would you let finances determine family size?

[summer rain]

I think that house built out of a shipping container is amazing; obviously the weather isn't always good but when it is, it doesn't matter how small your place is because you spend a lot of time outdoors. My cousins used to live in Wales and for years they lived in a trailer but because they had 3 acres of land it really didn't bother them; even when they finally fixed up the house that came with the land; a small two bedroomed cottage they barely spent any time in it. I would have loved to have swapped places with them. They had friends living on farms that could be reached without crossing any roads and it was really safe and lovely.

It would suck to live in a really tiny upstairs apartment with no outdoor space though, we got offered another place before this one and it was also three bedroom but it was half the size of this one, so I'm guessing 500sq ft as this apartment is 1000sq ft (1/5 above the average for a UK property now) and it wasn't even designed well, it was ridiculous. We turned it down especially when we were told we would not be allowed to park locally; ever as the local council had said any newbuilds had to be car free. The housing association lady said the homebuilders had crammed a 3 bedroom into what would usually be a 1 bedroom space. Also the apartment only looked out over a grim industrial, inner city area not the nice gardens at the back of the development, in this one the apartments take up the whole width of the building so we have windows at the front and at the back, and at the back its beautiful, loads of trees and big fields, we also have a seperate lounge and kitchen which is very unusual for newbuild apartments these days. My kids actually sometimes comment this place is too big, and its too much for them to tidy up xx

 

[Liesje]

I think that house built out of a shipping container is amazing; obviously the weather isn't always good but when it is, it doesn't matter how small your place is because you spend a lot of time outdoors. My cousins used to live in Wales and for years they lived in a trailer but because they had 3 acres of land it really didn't bother them; even when they finally fixed up the house that came with the land; a small two bedroomed cottage they barely spent any time in it. I would have loved to have swapped places with them. They had friends living on farms that could be reached without crossing any roads and it was really safe and lovely.

It would suck to live in a really tiny upstairs apartment with no outdoor space though, we got offered another place before this one and it was also three bedroom but it was half the size of this one, so I'm guessing 500sq ft as this apartment is 1000sq ft (1/5 above the average for a UK property now) and it wasn't even designed well, it was ridiculous. We turned it down especially when we were told we would not be allowed to park locally; ever as the local council had said any newbuilds had to be car free. The housing association lady said the homebuilders had crammed a 3 bedroom into what would usually be a 1 bedroom space. Also the apartment only looked out over a grim industrial, inner city area not the nice gardens at the back of the development, in this one the apartments take up the whole width of the building so we have windows at the front and at the back, and at the back its beautiful, loads of trees and big fields, we also have a seperate lounge and kitchen which is very unusual for newbuild apartments these days. My kids actually sometimes comment this place is too big, and its too much for them to tidy up xx

I think so too, that's how I came across that link, but when I saw her kids' reaction to it, it kind of made me think. It's one thing for an adult to make a lifestyle choice to be all weird and live in a box like that but my children's happiness will also be taken into account.

 

[summer rain]

I saw her kids were overall very happy with the situation from their demeanour and the dun they were having, just they find it difficult sometimes, but I think most kids are like that at some point wherever they live. My kids always whine that they wish they lived in a house with a garden but we used to live in a house with a garden and the kids never wanted to play in the garden, they preferred the local park and they didn't appreciate the house at all. In a lot of European countries and some far eastern countries even expensive homes are much much tinier than the US, the average home in the UK is only 750-800sq feet but in most places in the US that would be considered very small even for a 1 or 2 bedroom.

 

[Sarahkka]

I saw her kids were overall very happy with the situation from their demeanour and the dun they were having, just they find it difficult sometimes, but I think most kids are like that at some point wherever they live. My kids always whine that they wish they lived in a house with a garden but we used to live in a house with a garden and the kids never wanted to play in the garden, they preferred the local park and they didn't appreciate the house at all. In a lot of European countries and some far eastern countries even expensive homes are much much tinier than the US, the average home in the UK is only 750-800sq feet but in most places in the US that would be considered very small even for a 1 or 2 bedroom.

This is another very good point - how relative wealth is to where one lives. I can see this even in my own country - there are a few cities in Canada where you had better have very well-paid jobs if you want to own a house and have a couple of kids. It is getting more and more difficult to do that on our statistical "average income".
I think our city has gotten more reasonable in the last couple of years in terms of cost of living. But even considering that, we do make choices. House size is a very good example. I think a lot of people seriously screwed themselves over financially because they just had to have one of those massive houses that seems to typify the North American suburb.
We live in a house that most people in our city would consider tiny. (Calgary is home to some of the worst urban sprawl on the continent with dozens of outlying neighbourhoods comprised of those massive, identical "mcmansions" or "garage mahals" - big houses, easily 2500 square feet, with these huge attached garages). At 1.5 stories, and with just under 1200 square feet, our little inner city house feels palatial to me! Especially compared to the suite we lived in before. And we bought within our means and in a place that eliminates the added expense of commuting. Those choices allow us to consider another kid. If we had bought one of those big suburban places, we would have had the space for more kids in terms of bedrooms, etc, but we would have been really squeezed to have afforded much else.
And I don't feel constrained by our smaller house in terms of having one more kid other than the fact that we would have to do some renos to frame out a basement bedroom sooner rather than later. But I lived in a house exactly this size for a good six years of my childhood (I am one of three kids) and we didn't feel deprived or embarrassed or anything like that.
So I guess the choices, or maybe perceptions? of wealth can play into this, too.
Personally, I don't think you need a palace to raise a few kids and I don't agree with the huge environmental impact of the mcmansions, either, but that is another topic!

 

[summer rain]

Our apartment is 1000sq feet and is larger than most British 4 bedroomed houses that have been built recently and that have been designed for a family of 6 or 7, it feels huge to us and is definitely larger than our old house but would be considered unthinkably small in some other countries. I have been to Holland though and their homes are smaller still, in one of dh's relative's developments over there, the apartment is so small and has so little storage room that everyone is provided this secure outdoor storage room in a small semi circular outbuilding in the communal gardens. We thought they were public toilets or something, but nope. Another relative lives in a 3 storey 3 bedroomed house in Amsterdam, the rooms are tiny and there is almost no hallway space and the stairs are a tight spiral but they'd consider it a medium to large house over there. Also if you look at the room layouts in Ikea they are very clearly geared towards small European flats and houses, in the Ikea family magazine we used to get sent to us they'd help families downsize from a small home into an even smaller one. In Europe on the whole a smaller home isn't considered a negative thing or a sign of being poor at all and it's certainly not considered a reason to avoid having kids or to restrict the family size to 1-2 kids. Xx

 

[Yammas]

Having a smaller house encourages you to be more considerate about what you do and dont actually need how many people have a junk room in thier house which is filled with stuff they never use and forget is there. There are some lovely small living spaces that when laid out in to maximise space can work for small families they are also cheaper and more eco friendly so to me they are a good thing.

 

[summer rain]

Yup a few years ago my in laws could afford to rent a seven bedroom house, they have a big family, but even though they could fill all the rooms it was just too big for them and really hard to keep up with cleaning and maintaining it and the heating bills cost a small fortune. Rents really went up in London and now they can only afford a modest 4 bedroomed house, some of the bigger kids have moved out now but still it's a bit of a squeeze and OH's parents have to sleep in the second lounge which comes off the main one but they are a lot lot happier there. Over the years they accumulated so much junk and now they have got rid of most of it it's a weight off their shoulders xx

 

[Pearls18]

For me it's not just about the size if the home though it's the number of bedrooms, I think it is important (more so in teenage years) to have your own space, somewhere private, my room was my sanctuary when I grew up, so while square footage wouldn't determine my family size the number of bedrooms in our house would.

 

[Natsku]

Houses (or apartments, as most people who live in cities/big towns live in apartments) tend to be smaller here too, which makes sense considering the heating costs in winter. 1000sq feet is a good size and 1200-1500sq feet would be considered massive really.

I don't mind if my kids (if I have more) would have to share bedrooms. Me and my 4 brothers had 3 bedrooms between us all and we managed fine.

 

[summer rain]

I shared a room while growing up too; when my elder sisters moved out I got my own room. I actually didn't like it and got quite scared at night-to the extent I'd often go and stay at my best friend's house and sleep in her room! A couple of years ago I was speaking to aforementioned friend and she said now its her, her OH and her daughter who sleep in her room (and her room was a box room), her parents still sleep in their room and one of her brothers and his fiance slept in the other bedroom, I ended up offending her by saying surely they got the place extended, she replied they hadn't and they were all really happy with the situation as they are a really close family and their house has a lot of sentimental value as the family has lived there for well over 40 years. I felt really bad because even if I wouldn't be happy with such cramped living accomodation doesn't mean that she should be unhappy with it xx

 

[Pearls18]

I just want to offer my children a choice. When I grew up my brother and I shared a room but we didn't have to, then I think when I was 10 either myself or my mum decided to have my own room and I loved it. I'd be happy for my children to share when they're younger, sharing a room with my brother was one of my fondest memories. But for studying, friends, own space for privacy I needed my own room as a teenager and I wouldn't want to deny my children that even if they were the same sex. If they choose to share a room- fine by me! DH shared a room with his brother who he has always gotten on with really well but he hated it, especially with there being 4 kids he never used to get his own space, we have been together since we were 17 but never stayed at his house (8 years on) he was embarrassed as a teenager and as a result we aren't as close to them as my family as James practically lived with us. Bit of an extreme example, I know lots of people are happy to share but I will want to be in a position to let the children decide not put up with what we have.

 

[Foogirl]

I think it is wholly irresponsible NOT to consider finances when determining the size of a family.

Why would you have a child, or two or three or four, if you didn't have enough money to provide for their basic needs?

I do get irritated with women on benefits, who have never worked, who never intend to work, who have child after child and them try to take the moral high ground that they believe they are better mums because they are at home with their children and not "palming them off to some stranger to look after" and say they *might* go back to work once they are at school. Meanwhile, I'm having to go to work to make ends meet, and to bring my daughter up to have a work ethic.

A cap in the number of children a person can claim benefits for, is a great idea. The government will look after those who need it, but there comes a point people have to take care of themselves too.

 

[Eternal]

100% agree, cap it!

 

[babyhopes2010]

i think its v selfish to not consider your financial situation. id love to have more than 2 but i dont see why society should have to support me if i wanted more!

 

[babyhopes2010]

people who think children can be happy on love alone are naive, especially in this day in age, I want my children to see the world, be well educated and enjoy themselves with the luxuries we could afford as well as having the life and stability our family unit brings, because love etc should be a given when planning a family, having money doesn't deteriorate family values that is a personality trait (I know life doesn't work like that though unfortunately!)

To the person (Natsku?) who said women should be subsidised to stay at home I HATE this idea, I would cringe to think my taxes would go towards someone's lifestyle choice in this way, you may think it is best for your child for you to be at home but that's not what I think is best for every child, if someone wants to be a stay at home mother they should discuss it with the father and wait (if necessary) until it is financially viable, I don't think the taxpayer should fund a lifestyle choice.

Also someone said about single mothers not being able to work and needing help for this reason, tosh (in the UK at least) my husband works away a lot and I don't live near family so I have to plan child care as if he isn't around, and single parents get a lot of help with child care tax credits so it does pay to work.

I would stretch ourselves financially for a second because I think a sibling is priceless, but beyond that I would consider lifestyle and finances before considering a third and for that reason it'll probably only be 2 for us.

I am guessing by your opinion, you have never been dirt poor. You can have all the money in the world, but no love...and if I had to chose only one, it would be love.

Why does there have to be a choice? If I had to choose love or money, of course I'd choose love, re-read my post at what point did I say love wasn't needed? Love should be an absolute given, people wanting praise for saying love is enough like they are unique aren't, everyone who is TTC should do it on the premise there will be love, we can all offer that no matter what our circumstances are (I know this isn't what happens in the real world but let's talk about most people who want children for the love of a child) money makes life easier, less stressful, opens opportunities. I will not be made to feel materialistic and shallow for wanting my son to be well dressed, be well educated, have wonderful holidays, not be embarrassed by his toys and family car. If our situation changes I hope I have raised a child to not care about those things, or to understand, but as a parent I want him to have the best of what I can give him AS WELL as my devoted love and that of his dads. Health and love are the most important things in life I'm not stupid, I just want more for myself and my family if we can get it, you only live once, I don't want to spend that life living hand to mouth,there's too much to see and experience, but if that's how we have to live, we will be happy I just won't have more children I can support comfortably.

Um, that is how I read the bolded part. Yes, people CAN live on love alone. Sounds like you had SOME money. I, literally had none, and I was happy so saying ALL people who have children when poor are 'child abusers', 'niave' and 'selfish' is a prejudiced sweeping statement. And, I never said you were materialistic, ever. I am well-off, and we have love, but I dont look at parents who are poor as child abusers either. Just because you needed money to make you happy, doesn't mean others do. I think the basics are enough, but I know people who aren't making ends meet, but are wonderful people/parents.

I didn't say those things about child abusers etc. Everyone has a different perception of poverty, it is a subjective word you could be using it differently to how I perceive it or someone else, I do not think parents should assume love will be enough and be irreponsible enough to TTC in a situation where they are not financially stable (if it is avoidable, I know life happens, jobs are lost etc) I'm glad you had a happy childhood despite poverty but I wouldn't assume that to be the consensus, I wouldn't deem that a good enough reason to assume everything would be ok and say to people so long as you have love you will be fine, life isn't as pretty as that. I for one will shower my children with love, work hard to ensure we don't live in poverty, but if things beyond my control happen know we have the foundation of a strong family unit to get through anything. I'm just being realistic. I know how stressful money problems are and know I wouldn't be happy not knowing how I was going to pay the electricity bill, how I would get through Christmas, even if my children were happy my stress would no doubt be visible, children aren't blind and no matter what you try to say to me I believe it would impact on childhood.

That was me who said having children while already poor is like child abuse (again, I wasn't actually serious) but I can still recall thinking I would rather be beaten because at least when you're beaten if you go out the beatings stop... If you're poor, when you go out you're still poor.

So you would rather be beaten than be poor and have parents that love you???

At the time, yes. Every day that I had to go to school and explain my lunch and clothes and lack of school supplies to my teachers and classmates was just torture. I wouldn't wish that on any kid.
When you wake up every day and wish you were never born, a loving family doesn't seem all that important. Now that I'm grown up and have seen the world I see how that kind of thinking was irrational and didn't make much sense, but at that age, all I had seen were the inside of my room and my school because again, we were too poor for me to do or see anything else. We didn't even have a tv for me to see images of those children starving in Africa so as far as I was concerned I was the poorest kid on the planet.

gah whats with all these stupid comparisons? love or money

being beaten to being poor


oh come on!

unfortunately children cant survive on love alone. they need a warm home, food clothes nappies ect..................


i gave up work on fri to be sahm and we will be ttc soon. we are v lucky i dont need to work as husband earns a good wage and we have free house.


however we used to b v poor and even tho i wanted a baby we decided it would be unfair to bring a child into poverty.

i think its a disgrace how a family with 4 kids can earn MORE in benefits then my husband takes home...but thats a whole new thread


i grew up with no money,plenty of love.
but i want to give freya the things i never had

 

[Foogirl]

I don't think women should be subsidised to stay at home, but I think it would be good if the money the government are prepared to give families towards childcare, was given regardless of their chosen childcare decisions. I buy childcare vouchers with a salary sacrifice and I don't pay tax on that money. If my husband could have that tax refunded to allow me to work fewer days. It is a bit strange they will give you money but only if someone else looks after your children.

 

[Buttercup84]

I do get irritated with women on benefits, who have never worked, who never intend to work, who have child after child and them try to take the moral high ground that they believe they are better mums because they are at home with their children and not "palming them off to some stranger to look after" and say they *might* go back to work once they are at school. Meanwhile, I'm having to go to work to make ends meet, and to bring my daughter up to have a work ethic.

So agree with this, it does get me down sometimes that we both work and earn less (factoring in things that aren't actual cash like council tax benefit, housing benefit, free school meals etc) than some families locally where neither parent does (Liverpool has the highest number of workless households in the country) I just try to remember that current levels of benefits aren't guaranteed forever and they're already starting to be reduced eg. child tax credit income threshold for a family with 1 child is less than it used to be. At least with a good work ethic (whether someone currently works or not) you're in a far better position in the long term than someone who would happily be on benefits forever.

 

[Pearls18]

I do get irritated with women on benefits, who have never worked, who never intend to work, who have child after child and them try to take the moral high ground that they believe they are better mums because they are at home with their children and not "palming them off to some stranger to look after" and say they *might* go back to work once they are at school. Meanwhile, I'm having to go to work to make ends meet, and to bring my daughter up to have a work ethic.

So agree with this, it does get me down sometimes that we both work and earn less (factoring in things that aren't actual cash like council tax benefit, housing benefit, free school meals etc) than some families locally where neither parent does (Liverpool has the highest number of workless households in the country) I just try to remember that current levels of benefits aren't guaranteed forever and they're already starting to be reduced eg. child tax credit income threshold for a family with 1 child is less than it used to be. At least with a good work ethic (whether someone currently works or not) you're in a far better position in the long term than someone who would happily be on benefits forever.

I agree. Also, hopefully when we don't need to pay for child care it will be much more worthwhile working and in order to make sure I progress in my career and still have a good job in 5+ years time when my future children are in school I need to remain in the workplace now, so I keep reminding myself that although it's not a big financial gain in the short term it will be in the long term.

 

[robinator]

I watched this new show called "Secretly Pregnant", where for whatever reasons the mom is scared to share her news.

This week's episode had a woman and her husband who already had 5 boys and were pregnant with number 6. They were afraid to tell her mom because her mom helped them financially and wasn't happy when they told her about baby #5. They were hoping this one would be a girl so that it wouldn't be such a blow, but it turned out to be another boy. Needless to say the grandma was pissed at their lack of responsibility.

I did find it ironic that since they can't even afford the kids they already have, both parents had iPhones......

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

Sometimes you just MAKE it happen because you have too. We didn't plan baby #3 and I am a SAHM but we will just make it work