4thought.tv - IVF is a sin.

[tallybee]

Yes hon the health risks are very real and serious having that many babies at once. The risks are raised with any multiples, even naturally-conceived twins - the human body's just not built to carry more than 1 at a time really never mind 8. IDK the whole story about octomom but from what I have read, all of those poor babies were born incredibly early and small/low weight due to the fact that there were so many, and with life-long medical issues directly relating to this. That's why many feel that it wasn't right

 

[annawrigley]

Plus she couldnt look after them at all, or her other 4(?) kids... She kept losing them

 

[ShanandBoc]

Hmm but there's no guarantee of them NOT developing into a fotus IKWIM? I think from a religious point of view I would assume the problem lies in the fact that the doctor (with the parents in the passenger seat or vice versa) is playing God because he gets to decide which ones are "good enough" and binning the other babies, plus I would have thought if you were so desperate for a baby you would take ALL the embryos. Please feel free to correct me as my knowledge of IVF is limited.

Exactly, who is to say that those embryos wouldnt have turned out fine? I dont agree with 'getting rid of' because a child doesnt fit in with our ideal as perfect.

I know others dont feel the same

 

[tallybee]

I think it's not so much as choosing 'perfect' babies but more to do with using the healthiest embryos as those will by definition have the highest chance of survival/success. Which is not optimised by just using all of them for reasons above.

 

[ShanandBoc]

I understand what you are saying, but that is in effect, what they are doing.

How do they know these not 'healthy' embryos wouldnt have made a beautiful baby. Thats the thing, they dont. They are an embryo, the start of a human life.

It really is a double edged sword here. IVF is great that it gives couples baby, but i dont think an embryo should ever be 'disposed' of.

But like i said that is just how i feel, i respect others may feel different for whatever reason. I dont think there is much more i can say. x

 

[tallybee]

Yea it's a tough one. I do think that it's over simplistic to say that all embryos created should be implanted though. With this type of technology always comes moral debate because it moves so quickly compared to our human experience and values and this necessarily creates situations in which some feel uncomfortable with what can be done.
I don't think extreme views like the one from 4thought help anybody anywhere though.

 

[Nibblenic]

I didnt agree with octomum on two levels. That it was dangerous for not only herself who already had 4 children in her sole care but for the 8 babies she was carrying. I think it was pretty selfish tbh. But she was of the opinion that these frozen embryos were children already and could just be disposed of. She can in no way afford the ones shes got with out having more.

I know this may sound on the hard side, because it is. But IVF choosing the most perfect embryo isnt sucessful more than it is. I think that people should have the best chance of it being sucessful which means implanting only the best embryos. It is a medical proceedure and people in need of medical proceduresdeserve the best possible treatment with hopefully the best possible outcome.

 

[Marzipan_girl]

Every embryo has the potential to grow into a baby....therefore every embryo is human life...and as a christian the disposing of human life doesn't sit well with me at all...
Yeh God gave us the knowledge to discover medicine....but with that comes the potential to do awful things with that knowledge.
JMO.

 

[ShanandBoc]

Well said Marzipan Girl. x

 

[tallybee]

Most embryos do indeed have the potential to grow into a baby. But - having the potential does not mean that it will be realised - this is true in nature never mind in IVF or other procedures. There are a lot of ifs and buts along the way before it is a baby. We all remember being told how high a percentage of pregnancies end in MC, particularly very early ones where the woman would barely have even known about it. Nature disposes of far more embryos than anybody would care to think about anyway

 

[Nibblenic]

Nature disposes of far more embryos than anybody would care to think about anyway

Exactly

 

[ShanandBoc]

But thats nature, that just happens, you cant control it.... usually cause there is something genetically wrong and so the body naturally disposes of it. Thats hardly comparable to us intentionally doing it for whatever reason

 

[tallybee]

Nature doesn't only get rid because something's genetically wrong. There are many reasons, eg implantation fails because of whatever hormonal or other reason, off the top of my head. No-one even knows fully. It's just such a complex process that expecting all embryos to become babies is astronomically fallacious. It's just like expecting all sperms and eggs to become embryos.

IVF practitioners don't just create and discard life for the heck of it They do what they do to give the best chance of safe, successful treatment to their patients and that to me is preferable to inviting the possibility of lots of dodgy scenarios (eg 'octomom' or simply the whole pregnancy miscarrying because too many = too much strain) coming from a desire to implant as many embryos as possible just because they might develop.

 

[ShanandBoc]

Thats why i said 'usually' as i know there are other reasons.

I still think its a poor comparison. x

 

[Marzipan_girl]

Nature disposes of people too. People die every day. But that's nature...or God. Embryo's die every day. But that's nature, or God aswell. It's totally different to knowingly KILLING people/embryo's, even if it is for something you consider amazing, like giving someone the chance of having a baby. What about the babies that were basically killed? Killing people/babies/any human life is a sin. I'm only looking at this from my perspective though, as i'm religious, and this thread was started because someone asked if IVF could be seen as a sin. And i'm saying why it could be
I think IVF would be fine if it didn't involve killing the other embryo's.

 

[AppleBlossom]

I'm an atheist so no I don't believe it at all. Maybe because I know the heartache that some people have gone through because they are unable to conceive. And imo, an "all loving God" could not watch his people suffer such an awful thing

 

[smokey]

If you go by docterine teaching god never gave us the knowledge to develope medicine or science, the Gregori did because they felt sorry for humans and god was furious with them for it so banished them as fallen angles.

Sorry just had to get that out of the way so because it was never gods intention for us to learn this stuff thats why in regards to religion its seen as a sin.

I dont however see it as sin because to me how can the creation of a child no matter how its done be a sin, its when that child is not properly cared for, loved, fed, kept safe thats the sin.


One other thing we might want to be a bit carfull because it looks to me like this could stear dangerously close to topics not allowed to be discussed.

 

[ShanandBoc]

I view it as a sin cause the bible views even an embryo as a human life. It mentions that God sees even the embryo of us.

It also mentions that if someone was to hurt a pregnant woman and she was to loose a baby its seen as murder.

Its not Gods fault these things happens, its 'time and unforseen circumstance' Who knows maybe the reason people have a hard time conceiving these days because of all the man made pollution, the chemicals we put in our food etc etc. Those things are not Gods fault. Alot of problems we see around us are not his fault, but mans. Mans when they try and rule over themselves without Gods guidance

But i admit, its a fine line on this topic. I really can see both sides. I Also just wish it didnt include destroying embryos, each one is a precious complex life x

 

[tallybee]

I fully respect the rights of everyone to believe what they wish, but my atheism necessarily means that some of the arguments put are not within a context which I can accept. I believe in nature, and I believe in the astounding things we can do with it because we have learned to. I don't think that just anything is acceptable, but religious arguments are never going to be accepted by those outside of that religion.

I think talking about baby-killing isn't helpful as an embryo isn't a baby, whatever its potential. And of course people die, everybody does - that's one of the basic facts of life. But it's not really relevant to the discussion. There's a big difference between murder and natural death, and for me an unimplanted embryo falls into the latter category, not the former.

 

[ShanandBoc]

well we have to agree to disagree on that one. Nature is amazing yes, and very complex, precise and harmonious, all signs of intelligent design.

I respect there are different beliefs here so that makes us all look at this argument in a very opposite light. But thats what makes these discussions interesting tho isnt it x