alcohol

[purplecupcake]

Another great article:

https://parentingsquad.com/yes-you-can-drink-while-pregnant

 

[messica]

Aye aye aye.

There isn't enough research to know exactly how much of the alcohol actually crosses over to the placenta, but it certainly isn't the entire amount. We're talking TRACE amounts here, not ounces.

There are plenty of studies that show drinking in moderation is safe. There are others that claim to be unable to prove the safety. So, as always, it comes down to YOUR preference and what you are comfortable with.

One study even found children of occasional drinkers had LESS behavioral problems than mothers that abstained and perform BETTER on cognitive tests.

https://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2023984,00.html

No one is saying that it's a good idea to get drunk, or have a drink every day, but having half a beer or even a full beer or glass or wine every once in a while hasn't shown to be damaging, and it CERTAINLY should have no reflection on if the mother is a "good person" or not.

I think the trouble here is that while there may be the odd handful of studies proving the flip side of anything (including that the earth is indeed flat), if the multitude proves the opposite it's reasonable to conclude the majority are probably correct as opposed to the (very) few.


I had no idea that it was so common to readily consume alcohol while pregnant in the UK, and indeed this may be a cultural difference. Frankly, seeing what I've seen of kids with FAS it's horrifying that anyone would ever say a beer here and there is harmless when it's been proven otherwise.....but to each their own I suppose.

It does make me wonder how the FAS incidence rate's compare from country to country based on the seemingly lacksidasical approach to fetal exposure elsewhere. I imagine it would be an incredibly difficult thing to ascertain as it's often misdiagnosed as autism, adhd, mental health problems and the like.

Here, if you show up to labor after having had a drink or two it could be grounds to remove your newborn baby from your custody entirely.

 

[Tmb0047]

This has become an interesting thread! All the articles are great....

What are everyone's thoughts in drinks while nursing?! Some say beer helps bring in the milk (even many doctors/midwives). Just curious what kind of opinions or thoughts we all have on this?!

The way I see it "a" beer in the last trimester would pretty much be the same as "a" beer to help bring in the milk. I myself am not opposed to either! I will also admit to having the occasional drink while nursing my previous 3 children

 

[dlj2]

This thread was always going to get heated, there will be those that feel it's fine and those who would never risk it, we all have our personal reasons for avoiding any risks to our babies and I think it's ridiculous to question people about their decision. To OP glad you didn't have it in the end.x

 

[messica]

This has become an interesting thread! All the articles are great....

What are everyone's thoughts in drinks while nursing?! Some say beer helps bring in the milk (even many doctors/midwives). Just curious what kind of opinions or thoughts we all have on this?!

The way I see it "a" beer in the last trimester would pretty much be the same as "a" beer to help bring in the milk. I myself am not opposed to either! I will also admit to having the occasional drink while nursing my previous 3 children

With my first two if I drank I abstained from nursing. I'd pull a few bags from the freezer and pumped and dumped if I got uncomfortable. Once alcohol leaves your bloodstream, it leaves your supply. So once you sober up odds are your supply is back in the clear.

While many women choose to nurse even while heavily under the influence, I did not because it does pass through to some extent. I don't think it hurts if the consumption is small in most circumstances, but I also don't think it's logical if the exposure can be easily avoided.

https://www.lalecheleague.org/faq/alcohol.html

 

[Tmb0047]

This has become an interesting thread! All the articles are great....

What are everyone's thoughts in drinks while nursing?! Some say beer helps bring in the milk (even many doctors/midwives). Just curious what kind of opinions or thoughts we all have on this?!

The way I see it "a" beer in the last trimester would pretty much be the same as "a" beer to help bring in the milk. I myself am not opposed to either! I will also admit to having the occasional drink while nursing my previous 3 children

With my first two if I drank I abstained from nursing. I'd pull a few bags from the freezer and pumped and dumped if I got uncomfortable. Once alcohol leaves your bloodstream, it leaves your supply. So once you sober up odds are your supply is back in the clear.

While many women choose to nurse even while heavily under the influence, I did not because it does pass through to some extent. I don't think it hurts if the consumption is small in most circumstances, but I also don't think it's logical if the exposure can be easily avoided.

https://www.lalecheleague.org/faq/alcohol.html

I definatly agree with the drinking in excess but I more so referring to "a" drink, not a night out on the town!

I also worked in child welfare for quite a few years and have seen many FAS cases.....there has never (ever) been a case I have witnessed where an FAS child has come from a happy loving home where all the mother did wrong was have "one" drink. I'd bet it would be pretty hard to find evidence of an FAS case where this is indeed the way it happened.

I think it's sad that smoking cigarettes and taking methadone are frowned upon while pregnant but are not grounds for a child being taken from a mother at birth. Yet, if it was learned a mother had a drink shortly before labour started she may stand a chance of having her child removed from her care after birth. Something seems wrong here!

 

[mrs.humphreys]

This has become a very very heated debate on which everyone has different opinions on if everyone all agreed on everything all the time then the world would be a very dull & boring place, please ladies this is supposed to be a happy & healthy 9 months for alot of us on here & even the mummies on here, don't get yourselves stressed out with what other people may or may not be doing & what other peoples opinions are a question was asked, many answered it now don't worry yourselves about what other people are doing.
To all the pregnant ladies & mummies congratulations on what will be the best days of your life, motherhood is a gift & I enjoy every single minute of it, I hope you all do too xx

 

[messica]

I don't see how this could be declared a very very heated debate, especially compared to most on the internet. I think it's actually been quite civil!

Everyone has said their peace, it didn't dissolve into cursing, a bunch of put downs, and I didn't read one person reference the character of anyone else. All I've seen is a very diplomatic "I feel this way and this is why" and "ok, and I feel this way and this is why" sort of conversation


I think it's been great - very informative especially in regards to the norms elsewhere!

 

[messica]

I definatly agree with the drinking in excess but I more so referring to "a" drink, not a night out on the town!

I also worked in child welfare for quite a few years and have seen many FAS cases.....there has never (ever) been a case I have witnessed where an FAS child has come from a happy loving home where all the mother did wrong was have "one" drink. I'd bet it would be pretty hard to find evidence of an FAS case where this is indeed the way it happened.

I think it's sad that smoking cigarettes and taking methadone are frowned upon while pregnant but are not grounds for a child being taken from a mother at birth. Yet, if it was learned a mother had a drink shortly before labour started she may stand a chance of having her child removed from her care after birth. Something seems wrong here!

I was referencing *both* just a mere drink and a night out on the town. I don't binge drink, or even drink to the point of intoxication so there was no difference to me whether it was one beer or several. It wasn't essential for me to nurse during those times so I opted not to


Of course it would be hard to find a case. I think there is zero way to ascertain that a child with FAS never comes from a healthy happy home where mom only had a single beer (even if you've never seen one yourself). Since no study could ever be sanctified where that theory could be tested, all we have to go on are the word of pregnant women who often under and overrate their experiences. FAS itself isn't cause for removal, so of course if a child is in an otherwise happy and healthy home they could seek private treatment and as always, pretty much across the board, only the most extreme cases will end up in the hands of the state.

Since FAS, ASD and ADHD can be so similar in nature many children have been misdiagnosed. Women who DID drink (only small amounts and periodically) during their pregnancies who's children are misdiagnosed can be led to believe their mild drinking had nothing to do with what their child is experiencing in later life when indeed the two could be directly connected.

It would be impossible to prove in any regard, because what mother would EVER be willing to admit they were at fault for their child's struggles in life - especially publically and in a number large enough to quantify.

 

[mrs.humphreys]

I'm sorry Messica if you didn't like what I had to say but to be honest throughout this whole thread you have given your opinions on more or less nearly every single comment I've said my piece & wether you agree with it or not (by the looks of it not) I don't really care your opinion is your opinion & mine is mine like I said if everyone had the same options on everything then the world would be a very dull place

 

[messica]

I'm sorry Messica if you didn't like what I had to say but to be honest throughout this whole thread you have given your opinions on more or less nearly every single comment I've said my piece & wether you agree with it or not (by the looks of it not) I don't really care your opinion is your opinion & mine is mine like I said if everyone had the same options on everything then the world would be a very dull place

Well, I see that as the point of a thread. To continue the back and forth once you get involved in the discussion. This is a topic that's near and dear to my heart, and I'm not sure why you feel it's inappropriate to respond to people who respond to things I've said...?

I never asked you to care about anyone else's opinions so I'm not sure where you're coming from there, but I do agree with you that the world would be a very dull place if everyone was the same


I just fail to see how this thread has gotten any kind of out of control

 

[mrs.humphreys]

Right I'm not trying to get into an argument nor did I say this thread had gotten out of control like I said it's supposed to be a happy time being pregnant, not a time to argue about other peoples opinions, it seems know matter what anyone says you have an opinion on it wether what they say is about anything you say or not. I didn't put my comment on to offend anyone
I'm going to leave this thread as obviously you don't want people to say there thought on the matter

 

[purplecupcake]

Aye aye aye.

There isn't enough research to know exactly how much of the alcohol actually crosses over to the placenta, but it certainly isn't the entire amount. We're talking TRACE amounts here, not ounces.

There are plenty of studies that show drinking in moderation is safe. There are others that claim to be unable to prove the safety. So, as always, it comes down to YOUR preference and what you are comfortable with.

One study even found children of occasional drinkers had LESS behavioral problems than mothers that abstained and perform BETTER on cognitive tests.

https://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2023984,00.html

No one is saying that it's a good idea to get drunk, or have a drink every day, but having half a beer or even a full beer or glass or wine every once in a while hasn't shown to be damaging, and it CERTAINLY should have no reflection on if the mother is a "good person" or not.

I think the trouble here is that while there may be the odd handful of studies proving the flip side of anything (including that the earth is indeed flat), if the multitude proves the opposite it's reasonable to conclude the majority are probably correct as opposed to the (very) few.


I had no idea that it was so common to readily consume alcohol while pregnant in the UK, and indeed this may be a cultural difference. Frankly, seeing what I've seen of kids with FAS it's horrifying that anyone would ever say a beer here and there is harmless when it's been proven otherwise.....but to each their own I suppose.

It does make me wonder how the FAS incidence rate's compare from country to country based on the seemingly lacksidasical approach to fetal exposure elsewhere. I imagine it would be an incredibly difficult thing to ascertain as it's often misdiagnosed as autism, adhd, mental health problems and the like.

Here, if you show up to labor after having had a drink or two it could be grounds to remove your newborn baby from your custody entirely.

The "multitude that prove the opposite" are generally based on women that drink HEAVILY, therefore of course the results will reflect that. Also, because studies like these are unethical to recreate in a lab, they are based on women self reporting their drinking. It's not hard to see that many women who drank heavily and gave birth to a baby with either mental or physical disabilities will downplay their drinking due to guilt, embarrassment, etc... which will cause the results to be inaccurate.

FAS is caused from heavy drinking, not one beer a week, and there are even many women who drank heavily that go on to have neurotypical children which means there are many other factors at play here besides simply drinking or abstaining. Amount, frequency, woman's body chemistry, baby's body chemistry, and many other things are all factors that play a part it how drinking will affect a fetus so it's not a black and white cause and effect equation.

 

[messica]

The "multitude that prove the opposite" are generally based on women that drink HEAVILY, therefore of course the results will reflect that. Also, because studies like these are unethical to recreate in a lab, they are based on women self reporting their drinking. It's not hard to see that many women who drank heavily and gave birth to a baby with either mental or physical disabilities will downplay their drinking due to guilt, embarrassment, etc... which will cause the results to be inaccurate.

FAS is caused from heavy drinking, not one beer a week, and there are even many women who drank heavily that go on to have neurotypical children which means there are many other factors at play here besides simply drinking or abstaining. Amount, frequency, woman's body chemistry, baby's body chemistry, and many other things are all factors that play a part it how drinking will affect a fetus so it's not a black and white cause and effect equation.

I agree with almost everything you're saying, I think we're just saying it in different ways.

I will have to agree to disagree with your bolded though, because as you said in your above, it's something that cannot be studied, quantified and proven either way. You can't say FAS is caused exclusively by *heavy* drinking, because there is absolutely no way to know that. Only fair statement can be made is that alcohol is the only thing that causes it.

On that same note - the only thing we know for certain is that abstaining from consuming alcohol is the only way to prevent FAS 100% of the time. You don't need to worry about any of the variables because you remove the risk altogether.

I will add this link to support my claim

https://www.nofas.org/2013/08/16/emily_oster/

"A study published in Alcohol Research & Health in 2011 found that drinking at low to moderate levels during pregnancy is associated with miscarriage, stillbirth, preterm delivery, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). In 2012, another study published in International Journal of Epidemiology states, “Even low amounts of alcohol consumption during early pregnancy increased the risk of spontaneous abortion substantially.”

The bottom line: Light drinking during pregnancy cannot be considered risk free just because some studies found it to not be a risk factor in one specific area of development, given that other studies have found light drinking to be a risk factor in many other areas."

 

[purplecupcake]

The "multitude that prove the opposite" are generally based on women that drink HEAVILY, therefore of course the results will reflect that. Also, because studies like these are unethical to recreate in a lab, they are based on women self reporting their drinking. It's not hard to see that many women who drank heavily and gave birth to a baby with either mental or physical disabilities will downplay their drinking due to guilt, embarrassment, etc... which will cause the results to be inaccurate.

FAS is caused from heavy drinking, not one beer a week, and there are even many women who drank heavily that go on to have neurotypical children which means there are many other factors at play here besides simply drinking or abstaining. Amount, frequency, woman's body chemistry, baby's body chemistry, and many other things are all factors that play a part it how drinking will affect a fetus so it's not a black and white cause and effect equation.

I agree with almost everything you're saying, I think we're just saying it in different ways.

I will have to agree to disagree with your bolded though, because as you said in your above, it's something that cannot be studied, quantified and proven either way. You can't say FAS is caused exclusively by *heavy* drinking, because there is absolutely no way to know that. Only fair statement can be made is that alcohol is the only thing that causes it.

On that same note - the only thing we know for certain is that abstaining from consuming alcohol is the only way to prevent FAS 100% of the time. You don't need to worry about any of the variables because you remove the risk altogether.

I will add this link to support my claim

https://www.nofas.org/2013/08/16/emily_oster/

"A study published in Alcohol Research & Health in 2011 found that drinking at low to moderate levels during pregnancy is associated with miscarriage, stillbirth, preterm delivery, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). In 2012, another study published in International Journal of Epidemiology states, “Even low amounts of alcohol consumption during early pregnancy increased the risk of spontaneous abortion substantially.”

The bottom line: Light drinking during pregnancy cannot be considered risk free just because some studies found it to not be a risk factor in one specific area of development, given that other studies have found light drinking to be a risk factor in many other areas."

And again, my argument is that these studies are flawed because many people will claim they drank moderately, when in reality they drank heavily.

" "How much alcohol is safe during pregnancy?

Two approaches can be taken to this important question. One is the rigorously scientific approach. It does not go beyond the facts: that most children diagnosed with frank FAS have had overtly alcoholic mothers (who drank at least eight to 10 drinks a day); that children born to women who had four to six drinks a day have had subtle signs of FAS/FAE; that at two drinks a day, the only indisputable effect noted has been subtly lower birth weight; and that below two drinks a day there is no concrete evidence for an effect on the fetus. Thus, from a strictly scientific viewpoint, one cannot say that one drink a day during pregnancy is dangerous to the baby.

The more common approach, and the favored one, is the better-safe-than-sorry approach. This pragmatic position is espoused by public-health experts. Witness the warning label on all alcoholic beverages in the U.S. indicating that "according to the surgeon general, women should not drink alcoholic beverages during pregnancy because of the risk of birth defects." This conservative approach is also followed by most individuals and groups concerned with preventing FAS/FAE. For example, the National Organization on Fetal Alcohol Syndrome states, "No amount of alcohol has been proven safe to consume during pregnancy. FAS and FAE...are 100% preventable when a pregnant woman abstains from alcohol." "


https://www.onhealth.com/fetal_alcohol_syndrome/page4.htm#how_much_alcohol_is_safe_during_pregnancy

 

[StranjeGirl]

The "multitude that prove the opposite" are generally based on women that drink HEAVILY, therefore of course the results will reflect that. Also, because studies like these are unethical to recreate in a lab, they are based on women self reporting their drinking. It's not hard to see that many women who drank heavily and gave birth to a baby with either mental or physical disabilities will downplay their drinking due to guilt, embarrassment, etc... which will cause the results to be inaccurate.

FAS is caused from heavy drinking, not one beer a week, and there are even many women who drank heavily that go on to have neurotypical children which means there are many other factors at play here besides simply drinking or abstaining. Amount, frequency, woman's body chemistry, baby's body chemistry, and many other things are all factors that play a part it how drinking will affect a fetus so it's not a black and white cause and effect equation.

I agree with almost everything you're saying, I think we're just saying it in different ways.

I will have to agree to disagree with your bolded though, because as you said in your above, it's something that cannot be studied, quantified and proven either way. You can't say FAS is caused exclusively by *heavy* drinking, because there is absolutely no way to know that. Only fair statement can be made is that alcohol is the only thing that causes it.

On that same note - the only thing we know for certain is that abstaining from consuming alcohol is the only way to prevent FAS 100% of the time. You don't need to worry about any of the variables because you remove the risk altogether.

I will add this link to support my claim

https://www.nofas.org/2013/08/16/emily_oster/

"A study published in Alcohol Research & Health in 2011 found that drinking at low to moderate levels during pregnancy is associated with miscarriage, stillbirth, preterm delivery, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). In 2012, another study published in International Journal of Epidemiology states, “Even low amounts of alcohol consumption during early pregnancy increased the risk of spontaneous abortion substantially.”

The bottom line: Light drinking during pregnancy cannot be considered risk free just because some studies found it to not be a risk factor in one specific area of development, given that other studies have found light drinking to be a risk factor in many other areas."

I agree with this because it's really impossible to know how much is too much. I'm going by what I leaned in a seminar as I used to work in rehab- and that is as little as one glass per day can cause FAS. The common facial features of FAS only come if a mother is drinking during a certain time in pregnancy (can't remember the exact week, but it was very early on) however, a child can have FAS without the facial characteristics. THE FAS behavioral symptoms come out as the child gets older- like 10-12. Many times they don't even think to link it back to pregnancy as so much time has passed. A beer may not do anything, but do we really know? We DO know it crosses the placenta and is in the amniotic fluid so the fetus swims in it. And we really don't have proof that it is 100% harmless. It may do things we don't even know to look for.

 

[SisterRose]

I'm probably coming in at the end of this discussion, and I see you've already said that in the end you didn't really want it.
I personally haven't drank in any of my pregnancies as I feel like it just isn't worth the risk. I know people who have happily had a glass of wine in their pregnancies and a friend who used to have a regular Guinness and I feel like that's completely down to them but I just wouldn't personally feel comfortable. With breastfeeding, I have had a drink but I've pumped first so that baby had enough milk while I was out, and then pumped and dumped afterwards until I felt completely sober just to be sure!

 

[Ashley1021]

I think drinking while pregnant is completely irresponsible. Why take the risk? Each to their own I guess. But my unborn child relies on me to protect him. Why would I sacrifice his health for a drink? Plain stupidity.

 

[newbie1992]

Goodness me.. this is all a bit unnecessary!

It seems to me, by posting the thread asking if it makes you a bad person, you know its wrong to have done that?

Do what u wanna do, your body, your pregnancy, your baby!

If u don't know if its good, look on the internet.. heroin..epidural.. jesus gave me a headache reading it all!

 

[Gingerspice]

Many countries tries actually are supportive of a little of alcohol because of the health benefits related to a glass of wine. Many European countries, when stating you're pregnant, give you a glass of red.
I agree FAS is much unknown but when you consider how little modern women drink now when pregnant to historically, then there is likely other factors alongside our way of life triggering issues than just the occasional drink.

The amount of additives in food. The a out of pesticides on food. The chemicals we expose ourselves to with no acknowledgement it mm a be problematic.

With my first I did not know i was pregnant. She was a surprise. It was a friends leaving do. I got drunk. The midwife said given it was early pregnancy it was unlikely to transfer to baby. My child has been ahead on all things, physically and educationally to date, but knowing I have put her in a position is awful, but it wasn't a deliberate or conscious thing.

With this one I may have a small half glass wine approaching christmas with a meal but that will be a conscious decision and considered at the en time.

Every country does offer different guidance on alcohol. Most countries do agree, alongside their medical bodies, that a little and occasional drink when pregnant is very unlikely to result in issues however several governments, Inc UK feel it safer to state a blanket ban than give an amount thinking people are likely to push the a out 'just a little more' than a blanket 'zero policy' (And as said some do support a little)

It's like many things in pregnancy. There are risk levels for every choice you make, especially when it comes to food. Peanuts, cheeses, seafood etc etc. It is something you as the mother needs to feel comfortable with, but I think it safe to say opting for no alcohol is the only way to be certain you are not creating or raising a risk factor.