"Breastfeeding Overrated?"

[sue_88]

Sorry I just have to reply regarding the comment that leaving your kid to daycare isn't good for your child and another one commented that she wasn't sure if she'd like the person her daughter would become that way. That made me laugh as it basically means the whole population of Sweden, Norway and Finland would be brought up horrriblyand ended up like people you're not sure you like. Well I must say I think we're quite an ok bunch of people we Nordics

Do you fancy quoting where I said horribly? Of course, you can't.

If you're going to attempt to pick apart a comment, quote correctly dear.

Read my actual quote correctly and separate from my own comment dear

Going to nursery makes you horrible?

 

[Noodlebear]

She actually didn't say that.

 

[special_kala]

You're not taking circumstances and diversity amongst families into account which takes me right back to my previous comment. Just because someone had to deviate from their original plan doesn't mean they have been less successful and your perception of success will be entirely different from someone else's. If people want to look at it as black and white then fine, it's all well and good sticking to facts but that isn't life I'm afraid. We're emotional beings and so many other factors come into it, it's ignorant to assume otherwise.

All posts look the same to me?

I guess this is where we differ-- you see differences in circumstance as a reason to have different definitions of success. I see differences in circumstances as a reason to accept that some failures are not solely the work of our own will and to learn from them rather than aim to repeat them.
As an example, I had to put my son in daycare at 6 weeks. That was a massive failure, but was unavoidable because the alternative was to not have food/shelter and I didn't realize before having a baby how devastating that would be for both him and me. I see it as a reason to accept and embrace my failure, rather than a reason to call it a success just because we kept food on the table. But again, I would never deny the damaging effect that my circumstances had on him, which is what I see a lot of mothers trying to do. Unless the mother is somehow abusive or negligent or suffering from health problems of her own, staying home with mom will always be better for a child, even if it's not practically achievable. It doesn't make me a bad mom, but I would never demand that a SAHM stop spreading awareness of the negative effects of early life separation, which is what ff-ers regularly ask bf-ers to do when they demand we stop saying that ff-ing isn't as good as bf-ing and spreading awareness of the dangers associated with ff-ing.

I guess my post colors are from other programs I'm running. Other posts are starting to bling out into different colors now, too, so at least I know all my posts don't look to other people like a 3rd grader wrote it will a sparkly gel pen.

What now?

Technically that statement is correct.

Breastfeeding is the biological baseline so by formula feeding you increase the risk of SIDS, asthma, gastroenteritis, certain material cancers.

 

[Noodlebear]

That's another plus point for the benefits of breastfeeding as it helps prevent those things although I don't agree that it means there are dangers to FF. It's just not as beneficial in terms of health.

 

[special_kala]

You are increasing the risk/dangers.

I ff my first and that fact in no way offends me or makes me defensive.

We all make risk assessments every day for ourselves and our children. It's just a fact of life and not something I understand getting annoyed about

 

[Noodlebear]

I'm not a defensive FF and I actually made a point of saying I think it's pointless to get funny about someone telling you breast milk is better. I just think that it's a plus for BM rather than a negative for FF as formula doesn't cause those issues it just doesn't protect from them.

 

[special_kala]

It's not a competition, it's just a biological fact that by formula feeding you are increasing the risk/danger of certain biological issues like SIDS etc.

I hate breast is best, breastfeeding is normal.

 

[Heramys]

Sorry I just have to reply regarding the comment that leaving your kid to daycare isn't good for your child and another one commented that she wasn't sure if she'd like the person her daughter would become that way. That made me laugh as it basically means the whole population of Sweden, Norway and Finland would be brought up horrriblyand ended up like people you're not sure you like. Well I must say I think we're quite an ok bunch of people we Nordics

Do you fancy quoting where I said horribly? Of course, you can't.

If you're going to attempt to pick apart a comment, quote correctly dear.

Read my actual quote correctly and separate from my own comment dear

Going to nursery makes you horrible?

Haha good grief of course not! Reading yours and the other persons post about daycare isn't good for kids and becoming people you might not like I'm assuming you don't think we are brought up well as we were in nursery.
You might not have meant that but it came across that way. Anyway I'm not offended as I know the reality, I just thought it was quite funny that a whole regions methods got questioned indirectly.

 

[Noodlebear]

I didn't say it was a competition I just see it slightly differently to you.

 

[sue_88]

Sorry I just have to reply regarding the comment that leaving your kid to daycare isn't good for your child and another one commented that she wasn't sure if she'd like the person her daughter would become that way. That made me laugh as it basically means the whole population of Sweden, Norway and Finland would be brought up horrriblyand ended up like people you're not sure you like. Well I must say I think we're quite an ok bunch of people we Nordics

Do you fancy quoting where I said horribly? Of course, you can't.

If you're going to attempt to pick apart a comment, quote correctly dear.

Read my actual quote correctly and separate from my own comment dear

Going to nursery makes you horrible?

Haha good grief of course not! Reading yours and the other persons post about daycare isn't good for kids and becoming people you might not like I'm assuming you don't think we are brought up well as we were in nursery.
You might not have meant that but it came across that way. Anyway I'm not offended as I know the reality, I just thought it was quite funny that a whole regions methods got questioned indirectly.

No, not meant that way, your assumption was wrong.

 

[MommyJogger]

I would like to see some 'factual research' that says children of working mothers are a failure conpared to those raised by sahm. I genuinely am interested although it won't change my life as I want to work and enjoy the life WE have with my pay.

I love how my comment that putting my 6 week old in daycare was my failure became "children of working mothers are a failure compared to those raised by sahm".

Here (sorry if the parsing is off):
Vandell D, Corasaniti H. Child care and the family: complex contributors to child development. New Directions for Child Development 1990; 49: 23-37.
Bates J, Marvinney D, Kelly T, Dodge K, Bennett R, Pettit G. Child care history and kindergarten adjustment. Developmental Psychology 1994; 30: 690-700.
Loeb S, Bridges M, Bassoka D, Fuller B, Rumberger RW. How much is too much? The influence of preschhol centers on children’s social and cognitive development. Economics of Education Review 2007; 26: 52-66.
Magnuson K, Meyers M, Ruhm C, Waldfogel J. Inequality in preschool education and school readiness. American Educational Research Journal 2004; 41: 115-157.
Hofferth S. Child care in the first three years of life and preschoolers’ language and behavior. Paper presented at the biennial meetings of the Society for Research in Child Development. Albuquerque, NM. April 1999.
Belsky J. Quantity of nonmaternal care and boys’ problem behavior/adjustment at 3 and 5: exploring the mediating role of parenting. Psychiatry: Interpersonal and Biological Processes 1999; 62: 1-21.

And here are papers addressing outcomes vs. quality of early child care (with the intention of applying the ideas in the papers to the idea that a parent is undeniably going to provide better quality care for a child than a childcare worker, because some of them are childcare center-only studies without parent-care as a baseline):
Vandell DL, Belsky J, Burchinal M, Steinberg L, Vandergrift N, NICHD ECCRN. Do effects of early child care extend to age 15 years? Results from the NICHD study of early child care and youth development. Child Development 2010; 81: 737-756.
Pluess M, Belskey J. Differential susceptibility to rearing experience: the case of childcare. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 2009; 50: 396-404.
McCartney K, Burchinal M, Clarke-Stewart A, Bub KL, Owen MT, Belsky J. Testing a series of causal propositions relating time in child care to children’s externalizing behaviours. Developmental Psychology 2010; 46: 1-17.
Belsky J, Vandell DL, Burchinal M, Clarke-Stewart KA, McCartney K, Owen MT, NICHD ECCRN. Are there long-term effects of early child care? Child Development 2007; 78: 681-701.

I enjoyed working, too. I enjoyed what we could provide and the luxuries we could enjoy with my pay. It's not a "mother problem". I'd be willing to wager a good deal that many more mothers would take time off in the first couple years of their children's lives if we knew we'd have jobs to go back to (like they do in Finland, Sweden, etc to subtly address the poster using those countries as an example. I would never argue that putting a 2yo in daycare is just as harmful as putting a 6wo there. Not even close, but that's the standard in the US). It's a major decision to forever give up what you love to do because taking a few years off will make you immediately under-qualified for any position using your degree or experience. It's a social, governmental, business-centric society problem. But one that nonetheless needs changing.

 

[Heramys]

@mommyjogger yes sorry, I didn't think about your situation in the us. Totally agree with you there! We ARE a bit spoilt here and sometimes it gets in the way of seeing things in perspective.

 

[MommyJogger]

Sorry I just have to reply regarding the comment that leaving your kid to daycare isn't good for your child and another one commented that she wasn't sure if she'd like the person her daughter would become that way. That made me laugh as it basically means the whole population of Sweden, Norway and Finland would be brought up horrribly and ended up like people you're not sure you like. Well I must say I think we're quite an ok bunch of people we Nordics

Actually had to come address this directly. You can in no way compare countries where mothers are provided several years' worth of maternity leave and then provided at a pittance of a cost what is comparatively superlative quality childcare with a country for whom the standard is 6 weeks of leave (during which most are still constantly contacted by work and asked to do things at the risk of their continued employment) followed by low-quality childcare staffed with people who openly admit to working there only temporarily because they can't find another job. There's no competition in the US for high-quality daycare unless you live in a very privileged area.
Anyway, I'm sorry I brought up child care. It's not relevant to this thread, but I find it easier to talk about the shortcomings of different parenting practices when I can compare them to something that I'm also guilty of. People tend to get less defensive when you're criticizing something that you also happen to have done.

 

[Heramys]

Sorry I just have to reply regarding the comment that leaving your kid to daycare isn't good for your child and another one commented that she wasn't sure if she'd like the person her daughter would become that way. That made me laugh as it basically means the whole population of Sweden, Norway and Finland would be brought up horrriblyand ended up like people you're not sure you like. Well I must say I think we're quite an ok bunch of people we Nordics

Do you fancy quoting where I said horribly? Of course, you can't.

If you're going to attempt to pick apart a comment, quote correctly dear.

Read my actual quote correctly and separate from my own comment dear

Going to nursery makes you horrible?

Haha good grief of course not! Reading yours and the other persons post about daycare isn't good for kids and becoming people you might not like I'm assuming you don't think we are brought up well as we were in nursery.
You might not have meant that but it came across that way. Anyway I'm not offended as I know the reality, I just thought it was quite funny that a whole regions methods got questioned indirectly.

No, not meant that way, your assumption was wrong.

What did you mean? In what way would your daughter become (or might become) a person you might not like? I'm just curious.

 

[lau86]

I would like to see some 'factual research' that says children of working mothers are a failure conpared to those raised by sahm. I genuinely am interested although it won't change my life as I want to work and enjoy the life WE have with my pay.

I love how my comment that putting my 6 week old in daycare was my failure became "children of working mothers are a failure compared to those raised by sahm".

Here (sorry if the parsing is off):
Vandell D, Corasaniti H. Child care and the family: complex contributors to child development. New Directions for Child Development 1990; 49: 23-37.
Bates J, Marvinney D, Kelly T, Dodge K, Bennett R, Pettit G. Child care history and kindergarten adjustment. Developmental Psychology 1994; 30: 690-700.
Loeb S, Bridges M, Bassoka D, Fuller B, Rumberger RW. How much is too much? The influence of preschhol centers on children’s social and cognitive development. Economics of Education Review 2007; 26: 52-66.
Magnuson K, Meyers M, Ruhm C, Waldfogel J. Inequality in preschool education and school readiness. American Educational Research Journal 2004; 41: 115-157.
Hofferth S. Child care in the first three years of life and preschoolers’ language and behavior. Paper presented at the biennial meetings of the Society for Research in Child Development. Albuquerque, NM. April 1999.
Belsky J. Quantity of nonmaternal care and boys’ problem behavior/adjustment at 3 and 5: exploring the mediating role of parenting. Psychiatry: Interpersonal and Biological Processes 1999; 62: 1-21.

And here are papers addressing outcomes vs. quality of early child care (with the intention of applying the ideas in the papers to the idea that a parent is undeniably going to provide better quality care for a child than a childcare worker, because some of them are childcare center-only studies without parent-care as a baseline):
Vandell DL, Belsky J, Burchinal M, Steinberg L, Vandergrift N, NICHD ECCRN. Do effects of early child care extend to age 15 years? Results from the NICHD study of early child care and youth development. Child Development 2010; 81: 737-756.
Pluess M, Belskey J. Differential susceptibility to rearing experience: the case of childcare. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 2009; 50: 396-404.
McCartney K, Burchinal M, Clarke-Stewart A, Bub KL, Owen MT, Belsky J. Testing a series of causal propositions relating time in child care to children’s externalizing behaviours. Developmental Psychology 2010; 46: 1-17.
Belsky J, Vandell DL, Burchinal M, Clarke-Stewart KA, McCartney K, Owen MT, NICHD ECCRN. Are there long-term effects of early child care? Child Development 2007; 78: 681-701.

I enjoyed working, too. I enjoyed what we could provide and the luxuries we could enjoy with my pay. It's not a "mother problem". I'd be willing to wager a good deal that many more mothers would take time off in the first couple years of their children's lives if we knew we'd have jobs to go back to (like they do in Finland, Sweden, etc to subtly address the poster using those countries as an example. I would never argue that putting a 2yo in daycare is just as harmful as putting a 6wo there. Not even close, but that's the standard in the US). It's a major decision to forever give up what you love to do because taking a few years off will make you immediately under-qualified for any position using your degree or experience. It's a social, governmental, business-centric society problem. But one that nonetheless needs changing.

Yes ok you didn't use the word failure but you said at the end you can't argue it's better for a child to be at home. You didn't say your child in particular. I'm not going to read the studies, it won't change me and I'm too busy with my kids right now. I just don't agree with your statement that it is better for children to be at home. I have chosen to work part time and try and have a balance. If I didn't work we wouldn't be able to live in a nice area and have my children go to a good school, never mind holidays and music/ sports lessons which enrich a child's life. That's my opinion on my life and my children.

 

[sue_88]

She would have to be satisfied with not having her exact needs met when required due to staffing ratios in the UK, which would change her expectations of how I am with her possibly resulting in her not calling out to me when needed.

She's a demanding napper/sleeper. I have the time for this, the nursery say they do but this may not be daily and I would never ever expect her to be crying from tiredness.

And lastly, my working day consists of 14 hours, my LO's current AWAKE time is only from 9am - 7pm (10 hours) meaning she'd be asleep, woken up, taken to nursery, fed, cleaned, picked up and put to bed. Leaving 0 time for me, 3 consecutive days of this pattern will change her attitude towards me.

And I say 3 consecutive as I refuse to work this type of work on 5 days, however it's looking unlikely I will get my 3 days granted so I would rather resign than spend 2 out of 7 days with my daughter as not being raised by her mummy would change her.

I want her to be (mostly) raised by me, and as a single mum, the bond we share is very very strong and we work together to build her future into adulthood (this is my main goal, non of this STTN as a goal rubbish).

 

[lau86]

It's great you are a single mum and can afford not to work. I'm not trying to tell people what's best for their children. I know what's best for mine and my son enjoys nursery, yes there are downsides but overall he mixes with other children, learns to socialise etc and I get to earn some money which is spent on the mortgage and doing things with him. Even things like soft play is not cheap. I wouldn't want to have to tell my son we can't afford it. Other people would forgo it to stay at home, I understand that.

 

[emyandpotato]

MommyJogger the situation in the US is just horrible! I don't understand how some things are still so backwards in probably the biggest world power. I really do feel sorry for mothers in the situation of career or staying at home for more than a month


As for the original post... Breastfeeding is definitely better from a medical perspective, and in a lot of cases it's beneficial from an emotional perspective. But with our health care, levels of hygiene, vaccinations etc., clean water... our health, with or without formula, is probably going to be reasonable. Societal problems, however, have led to a huge lack of knowledge about BF so so many people can't do it/can't do it without pain and illness etc. etc.. And often these cases end up with PND because of trying and failing/constant pain and exhaustion/whatever other awful consequence. And PND does affect a child in so many cases, through bonding or there lack of, or through lack of attention, or just picking up on very negative vibes. Not to mention the negative consequences for the mother. Often, though of course not always, all of this can be avoided by bottle feeding, hence why some women choose to stop BF for this reason (though again by no means all, of course). And in fact, I think in the case of mental health versus potential physical health, if mental health is at risk then yes, perhaps BF is overrated in these instances, in the same way that formula is second best from a purely non-psychological medical point of view. Anyway, all case by case

And I think daycare is the same. Different for different families and different children and different environments. There are no studies in the world on formula or childcare or anything else that can pick apart an individual situation and give the perfect solution.

 

[emyandpotato]

It's great you are a single mum and can afford not to work. I'm not trying to tell people what's best for their children. I know what's best for mine and my son enjoys nursery, yes there are downsides but overall he mixes with other children, learns to socialise etc and I get to earn some money which is spent on the mortgage and doing things with him. Even things like soft play is not cheap. I wouldn't want to have to tell my son we can't afford it. Other people would forgo it to stay at home, I understand that.

Likewise, my LO has come on in leaps and bounds since starting nursery, and I'll likely have to use childcare from 1 with my next child. And actually although it makes me a little sad I don't see it as a bad thing

 

[MommyJogger]

Yes ok you didn't use the word failure but you said at the end you can't argue it's better for a child to be at home. You didn't say your child in particular. I'm not going to read the studies, it won't change me and I'm too busy with my kids right now. I just don't agree with your statement that it is better for children to be at home. I have chosen to work part time and try and have a balance. If I didn't work we wouldn't be able to live in a nice area and have my children go to a good school, never mind holidays and music/ sports lessons which enrich a child's life. That's my opinion on my life and my children.

You literally asked for the research...? I agree that with everything there is a different take and sometimes family situations require us to do things that aren't distinctly in the immediate interest of our children. But that doesn't change that it's better for under 3s to have consistent, parent-provided primary care. I fully understand that you've decided in your situation that it's better overall to work-- I've been there, too. I've made that decision before. There's a give and take between providing material things that will enrich horizons and provide for the future and providing time and attention that will benefit socio-emotional development and in the long run, it's difficult to flesh out which has the greatest long-term benefits. Sometimes we make decisions against the immediate benefit of our children-- that's okay. That's going to happen at some point to literally every mother. But the awareness, the message that "if you can manage it, please consider having a parent stay home with a child for some number of years, there are great benefits" still needs to be disseminated.
This whole argument started out because someone suggested that the thread be moved to the breastfeeding section because it brought up the drawbacks of ff. The whole point of bringing up childcare at all was to talk about how it's okay to acknowledge that we have made mistakes, that we could have made better decisions and that even if we couldn't, it doesn't mean that we're bad parents. That no one is the perfect parent, but that our own individual shortcomings and situations shouldn't force mothers who were able to provide better in some aspect of parenting to go hide in a corner to talk about it. Because there are a lot of women and girls out there who aren't where we are yet, but they're listening to our conversations and they need to hear the facts, the realities that come with having children, the sacrifices that taking responsibility for the wellbeing of a helpless human being requires.
They don't need to hear "yeah, you can try bf, but if it doesn't work out ff is a perfectly acceptable substitute". They need to hear "bf is fucking hard work, nearly everyone goes through a stage of thinking that 'it's not working out', but you push through it anyway because it's important for reasons x, y, and z. And by the way, here are some resources to help you work through the inevitable issues that will arise."
If I'd known just how much putting a baby in daycare sucked (because here, the message is that working is more important and that daycares are just fine), I would have traded off having children past 30 in order to stay at home with my first. I chose to have them younger instead. It was a mistake and I really hope that someone else can learn from it and benefit from me owning the realities of my decisions. I think there needs to be more of that in regards to most aspects of parenting.