Children starting school without being potty trained

[Nibblenic]

I haven't read the article but coming at it from an Attachment Parent..it seems unfair to require children to learn something before they are ready. I know from a teacher's perspective (and even a parent of a child in class) its not a good use of resources to have staff to stop and change nappies etc, and its not convenient and so many other issued, more so now with lower budgets for schools etc.

I don't know its hard, but I feel sad for children made to to learn something before they are ready. x

But youve said yourself you believe In education LW. Surely in main stream school children are being taught things before they are ready. Where do you draw the line? They cant be potty if they arent ready, what if they arent ready to learn the alphabet? They have a set opportunity to learn things, then the class is moved on a time scale that is suitable for the average. So surely then you have to help your child and encourage them to keep up with the pace or their peers.
Or do you only see them as not be able to learn things physically and not mentally?
Obviously im not talking about any children with additional needs

lol you made me pause for thought. I do believe in education, but I believe in a system that focuses on, and progresses in line with the child's capabilities. I know this does not occur in mainstream school as such and I now feel hypocritical because I sent my DD1 to mainstream schooling not knowing how she would achieve....hmmm i need to think more about it.....

Hoped it would make you pause for thought. *pats self on back*

GOd its nice its a bit more lively in here atm

 

[lindseymw]

I think it depends entirely on individual circumstances really. Some children at 3 year old are just not ready to be potty trained despite their parent's best efforts...I'm guessing there is also parent's who cannot be bothered with potty training. Either way it is not the Teacher's job to potty train the child, they should encourage it but not literally be ones that do the training.

Joshua is completely dry during the day but he's not ready to give up nappies over night, despite all of our encourage. I'm hoping he is ready soon but I am not going to force it on him. He is expected to get dressed/undressed for PE, he sometimes struggles with this, he can't quite figure out the coordination needed to take tops off, everything else he can do.

 

[Blah11]

Can I just clarify that were all talking about SCHOOL and not nursery? So 4-5 year olds, not 3.

 

[Eternal]

The way I see it, if your child is still wearing diapers/nappies by the time he or she is 4 or 5 years old (the age kids go into Kindergarten), you aren't really doing your end of being a parent by teaching them basic, fundamental LIFE SKILLS. (If they have special needs, provide them some leeway.)

Tying shoes and zipping coats...well, I think most kids know how to do this stuff either before they enter school or during their first year. I remember in Kindergarten having to help the teacher zip up other kids' coats and tying their shoes because about 1/2 did not know how to do it. It didn't seem much of an issue, they seemed to all learn how to do it by the end of the year.

i AGREE, but here my child will be 3! and he is 3 on the 12th of Dec and starts school on the 5th of Jan! So its all very well you all criticising parents and if my child couldn't dress himself by 4 or 5 then i would agree my parenting is to blame BUT my child will be 36 months, exactly 3 years! he therefore has less than a year to get to grip with all these tasks, hopfully he will he dressing himself by then, but i flippin try with him and he has NO clue what to do or how to do it, he can undo zips, but the ability to be able to actually connect a zip together is fairly complicated, shoes ... are you telling me your child can do laces at 36 months?

This isnt aimed at you, just everyone slagging off parents who who children are not fully dressing themselves at 36 months.

If i were still living in Scotland they don't start school until 5! My husband was shocked last night when i was in tears saying how he needs to be doing all this in 10 months, as he didn't know Sam would be starting school so soon.

My son will be potty trained in the next 6 months, even if it kills me, which is likely as i have newborn twins to take care of too. but i think its highly critical of parents to judge when some of our children are going to school YEARS before others. I would wonder how many of you judging me will have your children fully dressed before their 3rd birthday. I may be really wrong and my son might be really slow but of all the children my son mixes with the same age and older he is far more advanced and has greater abilities, i know several children who are 5 and couldn't do zips and laces, flip i know children who are 10 that cant do laces. In fact my BIL at 35 cant do laces (he has some special needs).

This argument is only fair if all children are being judged at the same age, but the fact it can be nearly 3 years different really isnt fair on those who children go to school after 5 to judge those whos children go to school at 3.

 

[Eternal]

Can I just clarify that were all talking about SCHOOL and not nursery? So 4-5 year olds, not 3.

Thank you for that, 4-5 is a whole different ball game. but i beleive school is compulsory here from 3, whereas i dont think it is in Scotland?


I dont expect anyone to toilet train my son, he will go to nursery dry, but i DO expect them to help him do his zip up and put his shoes on. We will obviously try and get him to be able to do all of that by then, but if he cant, I DO EXPECT them to help.

People can argue all they like about staff ratios to children but that is there problem, i am a nurse (although haven't worked since my son was born) and we permanently work short staffed and have ridiculous management created staff to patient ratios, yet we have to wash and dress as many as need help, some days all patients may be independent the next all need assistance of some sort and you cant not do it.

 

[Blah11]

The staffing is different for preschoolers though. In primary 1 its 1 teacher for 30ish kids. Nappy changing and toilet training would be almost impossible & unfair on the other children as it would be very disruptive.

Patients in general can wait and you're not teaching them a life skill. & staff ratios are a lot more than 1:30. Our ward minimums are 3:24 but optimal levels are 6:24.

 

[indy and lara]

Interesting replies. Will reply properly at home later. Our preschool ratio is 1:8 for fulltimers and 1:10 for part time. I do think these issues become everyone's problem when teaching effectively has to stop when a nappy needs changed.

 

[Eternal]

The staffing is different for preschoolers though. In primary 1 its 1 teacher for 30ish kids. Nappy changing and toilet training would be almost impossible & unfair on the other children as it would be very disruptive.

Patients in general can wait and you're not teaching them a life skill. & staff ratios are a lot more than 1:30. Our ward minimums are 3:24 but optimal levels are 6:24.

our pre school ratio is much lower, like 1:20 max i think, our school there is only a total of 90 in the school lol!

nursing is 2:30! obviously we have HCA too, but only 2, and we often worked with just one, students were taken into numbers so if we had a student we would lose a HCA!

As for toilet training he will be trained by then, and i wouldn't expect a teacher or want a teacher involved in the training of my son, i agree its not right, but i do expect the to help him do his zipper up if he cant.

 

[Blah11]

The staffing is different for preschoolers though. In primary 1 its 1 teacher for 30ish kids. Nappy changing and toilet training would be almost impossible & unfair on the other children as it would be very disruptive.

Patients in general can wait and you're not teaching them a life skill. & staff ratios are a lot more than 1:30. Our ward minimums are 3:24 but optimal levels are 6:24.

our pre school ratio is much lower, like 1:20 max i think, our school there is only a total of 90 in the school lol!

nursing is 2:30! obviously we have HCA too, but only 2, and we often worked with just one, students were taken into numbers so if we had a student we would lose a HCA!

As for toilet training he will be trained by then, and i wouldn't expect a teacher or want a teacher involved in the training of my son, i agree its not right, but i do expect the to help him do his zipper up if he cant.

We count hca in our numbers but yeah its 2:30 trained here too. We don't count students so it can be quite helpful if you have 3 on too!

 

[Pearls18]

Can I just clarify that were all talking about SCHOOL and not nursery? So 4-5 year olds, not 3.

Thank you for that, 4-5 is a whole different ball game. but i beleive school is compulsory here from 3, whereas i dont think it is in Scotland?

School isn't compulsory from 3?? It's 4 in Wales??

I get really confused on the whole pre-school front and my mum says she knows someone who gets all their childcare (pre-school I'm assuming??) free from 3 down South Wales, if this is true I assume it is a perk not compulsory? I am assuming if I were to stay here I would not have to take DS to school until he is 4 if I didn't want to. I started school at 4 (in Wales).

I can't say about clothing I am rubbish at understanding child development and have no concept of when children can usually do things, but I am assuming potty training by 4 shouldn't be an issue, I am going to start looking at 'ques' from 2 (as I'd like him potty trained by baby #2 really), I don't want to rush Elliot into things but at the same time he needs to learn I'm assuming pre-schools will be more understanding on the potty training front having 3 year olds?

 

[indy and lara]

Of course teachers help with zips etc but it is frustrating when you have a 3, 4, 5 year old who has absolutely no idea how zips work, how to use cutlery etc. This is quite different from needing some help.

I have my own' bucket list' of things she needs to be able to do by 3 for starting school nursery and a separate list of skills for 5 for starting school. We are making good progress with jackets on. She puts the hood on first, can always do 1 sleeve and sometimes the other on a good day. She can take zips and poppers off but not on/ up by herself. If I start the zip she can pull it. She can put on a hat and scarf. When we get to Nursery age I will send her in velcro shoes/ pull ons so she can do them herself and make sure she can manage her coat etc. We are building up he personal care skills and this means I am confident that she will be able to these things independently when time comes.

Em will start school nursery at 3 and school at 5. She is not potty trained just now but we have 6/7 months and she will be by then. Perhaps she won't be 100% ready but I do not want her in the school system in nappies. I certainly don't want a teacher/ NN changing her nappy nor do I want them training her as she is our daughter and I believe it is one of our jobs, not someone else's.

 

[Lightworker]

I haven't read the article but coming at it from an Attachment Parent..it seems unfair to require children to learn something before they are ready. I know from a teacher's perspective (and even a parent of a child in class) its not a good use of resources to have staff to stop and change nappies etc, and its not convenient and so many other issued, more so now with lower budgets for schools etc.

I don't know its hard, but I feel sad for children made to to learn something before they are ready. x

But youve said yourself you believe In education LW. Surely in main stream school children are being taught things before they are ready. Where do you draw the line? They cant be potty if they arent ready, what if they arent ready to learn the alphabet? They have a set opportunity to learn things, then the class is moved on a time scale that is suitable for the average. So surely then you have to help your child and encourage them to keep up with the pace or their peers.
Or do you only see them as not be able to learn things physically and not mentally?
Obviously im not talking about any children with additional needs

lol you made me pause for thought. I do believe in education, but I believe in a system that focuses on, and progresses in line with the child's capabilities. I know this does not occur in mainstream school as such and I now feel hypocritical because I sent my DD1 to mainstream schooling not knowing how she would achieve....hmmm i need to think more about it.....

Hoped it would make you pause for thought. *pats self on back*

GOd its nice its a bit more lively in here atm

LOL.. 24 hours later and I still don't have anything to back myself up..argh! Yes, I am a hypocrite..but I think if possible, I would prefer a more child-led education system.they have some of these in America, I watched a documentary...

 

[Nibblenic]

I haven't read the article but coming at it from an Attachment Parent..it seems unfair to require children to learn something before they are ready. I know from a teacher's perspective (and even a parent of a child in class) its not a good use of resources to have staff to stop and change nappies etc, and its not convenient and so many other issued, more so now with lower budgets for schools etc.

I don't know its hard, but I feel sad for children made to to learn something before they are ready. x

But youve said yourself you believe In education LW. Surely in main stream school children are being taught things before they are ready. Where do you draw the line? They cant be potty if they arent ready, what if they arent ready to learn the alphabet? They have a set opportunity to learn things, then the class is moved on a time scale that is suitable for the average. So surely then you have to help your child and encourage them to keep up with the pace or their peers.
Or do you only see them as not be able to learn things physically and not mentally?
Obviously im not talking about any children with additional needs

lol you made me pause for thought. I do believe in education, but I believe in a system that focuses on, and progresses in line with the child's capabilities. I know this does not occur in mainstream school as such and I now feel hypocritical because I sent my DD1 to mainstream schooling not knowing how she would achieve....hmmm i need to think more about it.....

Hoped it would make you pause for thought. *pats self on back*

GOd its nice its a bit more lively in here atm

LOL.. 24 hours later and I still don't have anything to back myself up..argh! Yes, I am a hypocrite..but I think if possible, I would prefer a more child-led education system.they have some of these in America, I watched a documentary...

You made me laugh. You are far from a hypocrite! I dont think there is an answer for child led education in the UK. I have friends who have worked in primary/secondary teaching both in public and private schools. They dont send their children to the private schools. To quote one when she was working in private, "we dont have a curriculum, I could get them to write their times table every lesson of the year, the head doesnt care what I teach as long as they are quiet" :S Yes there is more care I suppose as the class is only of 10 or so. However that is for all classes and they are just lumped together. So I dont think the answer is in private education. I have a friend who has a child in one of those schools where they dont teach them to read or write, I cannot remember what they are called, but I wouldn't be happy with that either

Its tough, especially since Ive seen so many people who the school system has failed, through the jobcentre and doing NVQs. I dont know how many people have said they were moved past something before they understood it, basic skills in maths and english. I dont see the point in teaching algebra if they dont get basic maths that can help you in day to day life

 

[marley2580]

Can I just clarify that were all talking about SCHOOL and not nursery? So 4-5 year olds, not 3.

Thank you for that, 4-5 is a whole different ball game. but i beleive school is compulsory here from 3, whereas i dont think it is in Scotland?

Taken from Wiki, but I'm pretty sure it's right:

A child's age on the 1 September determines the point of entry into the relevant stage of education. Education is compulsory beginning with the term following the child's fifth birthday, but may take place at either home or school. Most parents choosing to educate through school-based provision, however, enrol their children in the reception year in September of that school year, with most children thus beginning school at age four or four and a half.

across the UK the compulsory education age is 5 as far as I know. It may be common practice to send kids earlier but it's certainly not compulsory. Of course you could always home educate till you feel he's ready

 

[indy and lara]

Can I just clarify that were all talking about SCHOOL and not nursery? So 4-5 year olds, not 3.

Thank you for that, 4-5 is a whole different ball game. but i beleive school is compulsory here from 3, whereas i dont think it is in Scotland?

Taken from Wiki, but I'm pretty sure it's right:

A child's age on the 1 September determines the point of entry into the relevant stage of education. Education is compulsory beginning with the term following the child's fifth birthday, but may take place at either home or school. Most parents choosing to educate through school-based provision, however, enrol their children in the reception year in September of that school year, with most children thus beginning school at age four or four and a half.

across the UK the compulsory education age is 5 as far as I know. It may be common practice to send kids earlier but it's certainly not compulsory. Of course you could always home educate till you feel he's ready

In Scotland compulsary schooling starts at 5. Many kids start at 4 as there is only one entry into P1. If your child turns 5 in January or February then you have the right to defer entry and they will start P1 the following August. Ante-preschool and preschool years at Nursery are not compulsary. Em starts her ante- preschool year in August but we are probably only going to take 3 out of the 5 sessions each week as I personally feel that is enough at 3. When she starts P1 we will lose a lot of the flexibility we have in life so I am stretching it out as much as possible!

I know things are different in England though and you cannot defer entry into Reception in the same way.

 

[Blah11]

Amelie is a january baby and I'm sending her to school when shes 4 and a half. I honestly think she'd be miles ahead of her class if I left her to 5 and a half

 

[indy and lara]

Amelie is a january baby and I'm sending her to school when shes 4 and a half. I honestly think she'd be miles ahead of her class if I left her to 5 and a half

I think that this the difference North of the border though. We get the choice. Not all January/ February kids would benefit from deferring but many do and it is very reassuring for parents to be able to make that decision. In lots of cases children are academically ready but emotionally not, so benefit from another year for that reason.

 

[JASMAK]

It's different here...it's the YEAR you turn 5 is when you start. My daughter turned 5 Jan. 4...so she went that September...well into 5 years old. For her, it was good, as she has a special need. At 7 years old, she is in grade one now...she still can't do zippers and buttons or her coat, but she is supposed to get an aid for that.

 

[mum22ttc#3]

DD2 is 4 in April. It isn't compulsory for her to go to school till the term she turns 5 but she is hopefully starting in September, aslong as she gets accepted.

TBH I do think that half of it is laziness on the parents half and really don't see why it should be the teachers responsibility to potty train a child. I also don't think that it is exaggerated. After taking LO to nursery (bearing in mind they start school September) and seeing the amount that are still in nappies I do think that an awful lot of 4+ kids are still in nappies.

As for the dressing I thought that DD2 was actually a little behind when she started to dress herself, including zips, but apparently according to her nursery she is doing very well and in their words 'will be very ahead' once she gets to school in September.

 

[freckleonear]

In recent years, health visitors have been advising not to push children into potty training too early and to wait until they are ready. I think as a result of that, parents tend to be very laid back about it. They don't bother talking about elimination until their toddlers are older, whereas if you start communicating about elimination to younger babies and toddlers, they are often able to potty train themselves at an "early" age.

Also, with increasing percentages of children being put into nursery/preschool at a younger age, I wonder if the emotional impact has anything to do with it?