CIO - From a Baby's View.

[robinator]

I guess what bugs me the most is this is the author's interpretation of what a baby is experiencing..... It's just like when my OB told me that hiccups don't bother babies in the womb - how do you know? Did you ever ask one?

We make our best guesses, but no one really knows. Babies cries are heartbreaking so it's easy to associate it with them being in turmoil. Might be the case, might not.

Like smokey said, by the age most people do CIO, you have a good idea of your baby's cries. Often mine sound the same, but there is a specific, "mommy, don't leave meeeeee!" cry that I always respond to (probably because she does it so rarely).

 

[midori1999]

I'm ambivalent about CIO as I have a great sleeper and have never had to use it, but what an obnoxious article. I found it offensive for the moms who are at their wits end and feel it's their last option.

Maybe the author's intentions were genuine when she wrote it, but it reads like a guilt trip from hell:

He awakes in a mindless terror of the silence, the motionlessness. He screams. He is afire from head to foot with want, with desire, with intolerable impatience. He gasps for breath and screams until his head is filled and throbbing with the sound. He screams until his chest aches, until his throat is sore. He can bear the pain no more and his sobs weaken and subside. He listens. He opens and closes his fists. He rolls his head from side to side. Nothing helps. It is unbearable. He begins to cry again, but it is too much for his strained throat; he soon stops. He stiffens his desire-racked body and there is a shadow of relief. He waves his hands and kicks his feet. He stops, able to suffer, unable to think, unable to hope. He listens. Then he falls asleep.

Why would that make anyone feel guilty? People can only feel guilty if they've done something wrong, surely? if people say they have properly researched CIO and are happy to do it, that it does no harm etc, then surely it wouldn't matter what they read or what anyone else said?

Aside from which, the book was written in the 70's. it was absolutely routine for babies to be left to scream themselves to sleep then, it would have been thought of as completely radical top end or cuddle your baby to sleep. Many babies were simply left in a pram at the bottom of the garden to cry themselves to sleep. My MIL proudly states how she did this with her youngest and she is not alone, everyone did it then, or practically everyone.

I guess what bugs me the most is this is the author's interpretation of what a baby is experiencing..... It's just like when my OB told me that hiccups don't bother babies in the womb - how do you know? Did you ever ask one?

We make our best guesses, but no one really knows. Babies cries are heartbreaking so it's easy to associate it with them being in turmoil. Might be the case, might not.

Like smokey said, by the age most people do CIO, you have a good idea of your baby's cries. Often mine sound the same, but there is a specific, "mommy, don't leave meeeeee!" cry that I always respond to (probably because she does it so rarely).

Yes, you're right and it's the authors interpretation. Presumably to get people to look at things from another perspective, as, as I said, things were very different in 1976 and babies were routinely left to CIO.

You're also right that we have no proof about how babies are feeling when le to cry. In fact, so few studies have been done on it, there's no actual evidence they are even asleep when they stop crying or are just in a disassociative state. What we do know is that when the baby stops crying, their stress levels remain the same as when they were crying, the Mothers reduce.

 

[robinator]

Guilty was the wrong choice of word, apparently. It was written to make people feel bad; it comes across as, "this is what I think happens, look at the horrible things you are subjecting your child to!".

Not defending CIO, not defending anti-CIO; as someone who is unbiased on the subject, this was my initial impression of the article, period.

Please let's not get into how people must be in the wrong if they feel a certain way. In this case, one can be made to feel guilty for even considering CIO, and that isn't fair to those at their wits end, IMO.

In order to be wrong, one must assume this author is right, and no one knows that.

 

[smokey]

Especialy seen as it isnt a accurate depiction of how cio or cc is done and gives the impression that this is a day in the life of someone that does.

 

[staralfur]

I mean...the first half is sort of irrelevant because I don't think nurseries are all that common these days.

I have never seen anyone condone CIO or sleep-training for a newborn, which is what the latter part seems to be talking about.

I get the point and I'm not a fan of sleep-training either (though much more understanding of it than I used to be) but I just think it's a bit...severe.

 

[socitycourty]

my hospital flat out refused to take my newborn even when i was out of my mind after surgery. i was so afraid to even hold her because of the shakes.

this article is flat out ridiculous, and just furthering the notion that the sleep and wellbeing of the parents has no importance at all and they should never let their baby cry no matter how tired they are.

my lo is a horrible sleeper, the effects of 8 months+ sleep deprivation have made me into a completely different person and not in a good way. haven't done any sleep training but will probably have to break down and do it soon as she never sleeps.

 

[Piper84]

I think the midwives where I had LO would take the baby if you'd had a CS or rough time and bring LO in for feeds, but the hospital nursery thing did not exist. It was just a small room nearby.

 

[Loui1001]

I don't think I've ever read anything so ridiculous in my life.

 

[overcomer79]

why is formula companies ALWAYS to blame? I mean this is a thread about supposed cio...not formula feeding but strangely it still gets mentioned in a negative light!

 

[Piper84]

why is formula companies ALWAYS to blame? I mean this is a thread about supposed cio...not formula feeding but strangely it still gets mentioned in a negative light!

If you're referring to Dragonfly's post I think the link is pretty clear. Formula companies funding hospital nurseries encourages newborns to be away from their mothers at a decisive time for BFing, which I assume is down to formula companies wanting low BFing success rates in order to sell more product.

 

[socitycourty]

why is formula companies ALWAYS to blame? I mean this is a thread about supposed cio...not formula feeding but strangely it still gets mentioned in a negative light!

If you're referring to Dragonfly's post I think the link is pretty clear. Formula companies funding hospital nurseries encourages newborns to be away from their mothers at a decisive time for BFing, which I assume is down to formula companies wanting low BFing success rates in order to sell more product.

I'm sorry but I have to say at least in my state this pure bullshit.

Every woman I know who has given birth has been forced to room in with her baby, there is no "nursery"

I have said before they refused to take my LO at all after my 32 hour labor and EMCS, I was so exhausted I was hallucinating. My husband was working.

They pressed me to BF until it was pretty apparent that my LO was starving, she was as yellow as a banana, no wet diapers, no poops, severe jaundice and over 15% weight loss in 3-4 days.

So no, there was no formula company hijinks involved. If anything they were so pushy abouut BF that they compromised the health of my daughter and myself.

 

[robinator]

Our hospital had no nursery, unless you count the nicu. If you planned to ff, you were supposed to bring your own in advance. I'm sure the hospital had some on hand, just in case, but it certainly wasn't common knowledge.... Maybe it's a US thing.

 

[socitycourty]

my hospital only provided it in nicu

 

[Natsku]

I think its what they used to do, not what they do now.

 

[Piper84]

why is formula companies ALWAYS to blame? I mean this is a thread about supposed cio...not formula feeding but strangely it still gets mentioned in a negative light!

If you're referring to Dragonfly's post I think the link is pretty clear. Formula companies funding hospital nurseries encourages newborns to be away from their mothers at a decisive time for BFing, which I assume is down to formula companies wanting low BFing success rates in order to sell more product.

I'm sorry but I have to say at least in my state this pure bullshit.

Every woman I know who has given birth has been forced to room in with her baby, there is no "nursery"

I have said before they refused to take my LO at all after my 32 hour labor and EMCS, I was so exhausted I was hallucinating. My husband was working.

They pressed me to BF until it was pretty apparent that my LO was starving, she was as yellow as a banana, no wet diapers, no poops, severe jaundice and over 15% weight loss in 3-4 days.

So no, there was no formula company hijinks involved. If anything they were so pushy abouut BF that they compromised the health of my daughter and myself.

That's awful, but we're talking about hospitals with nurseries which are/were funded by formula companies, establishing the link between neonatal nurseries and formula companies for those who didn't see it.

 

[midori1999]

Presumably as more hospitals in the USA gain 'Baby friendly' status, nurseries and 'gifts' of formula are becoming less common. However, you only have to look on this forum to see that many women other USA are given formula in or when they leave the hospital.

Nurseries are still commonplace in many hospitals in the USA and it is certainly true that formula companies offered to design and fund hospital wards, which included nurseries and included making sure the nurseries were as far as possible for nursing mothers.

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by this. Formula companies are the scum of the earth. They are prepared to push their products to increase sales figures when they know babies will die because of it, so it's hardly surprising that they would do what they can to increase sales in the developed world, including undermining women who want to breast feed so that they can sell them their product.

 

[smokey]

And yet again another thread has turned into the evils of formula bashing.
Is there realy no escape from the argument over and over again.
Maybe a discusion about flowers might not end up being about formula or how we feed babies but I suspect a way would be found to twist it.

 

[DLA]

Wow never heard that about formula companies being linked to nurseries. Not sure if I buy that but I guess ya never know. My hospital had a nursery. I didn't use it but they encouraged me to use it and said when baby gets hungry they will bring him back to me to BF. They promoted BFing actually above FF, so I don't think there was any link in this case from FF to the nursery. In the end I didn't want to be away from my son anyways.

As far as CIO, it's not the most desirable option and certainly wouldn't be the first I jump to. I would never consider it for a newborn ever. My son is 15 months and still doesn't sleep through the night, I just accept it. I did however do a little CIO with him when he was around 10 months old. He wasn't sleeping hardly at all. Night time would come, he would get so over tired and cry, would sleep a little on me, but still wasn't getting good rested sleep, and was waking up crying. So for a couple nights I did CIO. He cried for less than hour over the course of about 2-3 nights, which was a lot less than he was averaging on daily/nightly basis because he was so over tired previously.

I think the assumption that CIO is wrong, and never appropriate is where people are misinformed. There are circumstances where CIO might be the only option. That's where I was at. Had nothing to do with wanting my son to STTN, it was for him as he was beyond miserable. Like I said, it wouldn't be the first thing I jump to, for me it was a last resort option and I'm glad I did it. He was so much happier when he was actually getting some sleep. Maybe one of these days he will start STTN if I'm lucky.

 

[Piper84]

And yet again another thread has turned into the evils of formula bashing.
Is there realy no escape from the argument over and over again.
Maybe a discusion about flowers might not end up being about formula or how we feed babies but I suspect a way would be found to twist it.

No-one's talking about the evils of FFing. It seems like a lot of people want it to be about that though.

 

[robinator]

Formula companies are the scum of the earth.

I would classify child abusers and Nazis as the scum of the earth, not formula companies

Wasn't this thread about CIO? lol