Circumsicion argument... **Page 11 OPs response**

[RubyRedLips]

I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread because it's a good reminder that hubby and I still need to discuss this. (We're Team Yellow but it's good to be prepared just in case.)

I feel pretty strongly that it's an unnecessary and painful procedure and moreover that it's not our place to make a permanent decision about our child's body. In a similar vein, I will not be piercing my infant daughter's ears either.

 

[pinklightbulb]

I never had my two done. Wouldn't dream of it. Had FOB tried to tell me otherwise he'd have been in for a rude shock as I don't care who owns the penis out of the two of us, he wasn't letting anyone near either of the boys' with a barge pole, religious reasons or not. Thankfully he was in the same boat as me and didn't want it done. Here you can't even get it done as routine, you have to fly to the mainland and pay for it yourself as it's classed as cosmetic when newborn (unless it's obviously for a legitimate medical purpose.)

 

[pansorie]

I am in the U.S., and my hubby is not circumcised. We are having a girl, but he feels very strongly that if we have a boy that we should NOT circumcise. I completely agree. Just my two cents.

 

[MrsKChicago]

I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread because it's a good reminder that hubby and I still need to discuss this. (We're Team Yellow but it's good to be prepared just in case.)

I feel pretty strongly that it's an unnecessary and painful procedure and moreover that it's not our place to make a permanent decision about our child's body. In a similar vein, I will not be piercing my infant daughter's ears either.

That's one of the reasons we found out the sex. I was hoping to avoid the circumcision discussion altogether!

 

[Andypanda6570]

Just because a man is the one with the penis doesn't mean he's entitled to make all decisions concerning it, nor does it mean he's an expert on penises. You can't decide to cut off portions of your daughter's vulva just because you have one as well. Ultimately, I feel that since it's an unnecessary procedure (unless there are rare medical complications), the person making the decision should be the one who owns the penis, and obviously he can't make that decision until later on.

Everybody has a different partnership and different things are important to different people. Fine with me if you wouldnt care about your partner's differing opinion as the father of your son- but sometimes it's wisest to pick battles carefully- and choosing all out war over foreskin... Isn't something I'd choose for my marriage. Jmho. Nor would I choose the state of our world's foreskin as my torch to carry. You don't need anybody else to be WRONG in order to feel okay about your choices, and it's okay to share your view and your experience WITHOUT the judgment. Even as someone who is personally AGAINST circumcision, I think we All know better than to compare it to FGM.

As for the PP who questioned the legitimacy of threads like these because of the discussions always getting heated, maybe you're right. Some people want to WIN rather than respect and that's certainly not healthy.

Totally agree..My boys are now 23, 21 and 14 and they were all circumcised ( my husband isn't, but wanted his sons to be) .. Now I definitely get it ,that it's mostly in the USA and not "normal" in the UK. However, please refrain from calling me a butcher, which is what is being implied when one says I mutilated my babies.. I don't appreciate it, it's wrong, rude, nasty and downright cruel.... There are SOooo many things I do not agree with on this forum, but I would voice my opinion ( Or type it, LOL) but I would never belittle another mother for her choices. It's just wrong and I can't wrap my brain around others not knowing it's wrong also..
Thanks

 

[Menelly]

My hubs is circ'd, and we're having a boy this time, so I brought it up with him. Originally his philosophy was "why not, I don't mind being circ'd." But then I shared the fact that there is NO pain killer they can use that blocks all the pain. In more than 70% of cases in the US, the only "pain killer" they use is a binky dipped in sugar water. When they do use a pain block, it can only block the top half of the penis, there isn't a way to block both top and bottom safely. (Unless you use general anesthetic, which no one would do on a newborn without damn good reason.) So there is *no* way to make infant circumcision pain free. There is evidence that infant circumcision can rewire men's pain receptors for LIFE and make them significantly more sensitive to pain for the rest of their lives.

The foreskin is attached to the glans of the penis at birth with a membrane that's similar to what holds your fingernail to your finger. Except your finger has about 1000 nerves, and the foreskin has about 20,000 nerves. So, peel your fingernail off your finger while sucking on a dum dum as "pain killer" and then pee on it for a week.

Also, in the US, they estimate over 100 babies DIE yearly from circumcisions. More babies DIE from circumcisions in the US than children are abducted by strangers in the US annually, and yet we don't see a problem with maintaining this "culture". I honestly don't get it.

Pointed those facts out to my husband, and he is now firmly aboard the "no circumcision" train with me. We won't risk our son dying for unnecessary cosmetic surgery.

 

[Eline]

It turns out my family has a very bad history with being uncut. Everyone who has been left uncut has had life long problems.

If I read correctly, this does tell me that even though they have a lot of problems, they didn't opt for a circumcision later in life either?

 

[SAmummy]

None of my boys were circumcised at birth ,but my one sons had to have it done at 5yrs old due to a medical problem of the foreskin. I still don't see the need unless there is a problem (which from my understanding is pretty rare) but I don't have really strong feelings around the issue. I suppose because hubby and I both felt the same. I don't, however think male circumcision can be compared to the practice of female circumcision in the same way. The principals in the argument are essentially the same, but the complications and extent of mutilation in female circumcision take it to another level all together .

 

[counting]

Since the OP did not ask if I circ'd my child, if I will be circ'íng my child, but simply how to make a decision around this issue with their partner- I'll be handling that.

You seem to be against the idea of circumcision. The first thing I will say is, if you have an instinct to protect your child's body from an unnecessary procedure- it is my belief you should not waver from this conviction. One of the strongest bonds on earth is the bond that happens when a mother seeks to protect her child from harm and nurture them. Going against that nature goes against our fundamental instincts as mothers.

 

[rwhite]

This is one of the best and most informative videos I have ever seen regarding routine infant circumcision (it does contain a clip of the procedure, which I think is helpful to watch, but this can be skipped if you are squeamish):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceht-3xu84I

No medical organisation in the world recommends the routine circumcision of infants (https://www.cirp.org/library/statements/) - and furthermore, 80%+ of the world's male population is intact (uncircumcised) and perfectly fine America is one of the only western nations to routinely practice circumcision anymore - other countries where it is "the norm" are middle eastern countries mainly.

There are many myths floating around about the foreskin and how it is "dirty", how circumcision is "just a snip" etc - this cited article is fantastic and full of great info
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...9/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe

The HIV benefits are greatly overstated - the 60% figure you will often hear cited is only a relative percentage decrease which is TINY, from 2.49% likelihood of transmission with foreskin, to 1.18% without! Not to mention that the sub-Saharan African circumcision studies that all this info is based on is greatly flawed
https://www.publichealthinafrica.org/index.php/jphia/article/view/jphia.2011.e4/html_9

Furthermore...America has one of the highest rates of HIV/AIDs and STDs in the western world (compare it with Europe, most of whose men have their foreskins) but also a high rate of circumcision. You'd think if circumcision was so great at preventing these things, you'd see some different figures.

Regarding the risk of UTIs - girls and women get many more UTIs than boys and men do, but they are treated easily and quickly with antibiotics. There is no reason we cannot do that for boys as well. This is purely anecdotal - but my son is almost 5 now and has not ever had a single problem relating to having a foreskin, and neither has my partner, or any other man I've spoken to (the majority of men here are intact).

Penile cancer is a moot point, as it is very rare to begin with. I think it is something like 1 in 8 women develop breast cancer over the course of their lifetime, but nobody is suggesting prophylactic removal of breastbuds in baby girls to prevent breast cancer. Even the American Cancer Society does not recommend circumcision as a preventative for penile cancer. It is also a myth that only men who aren't circumcised can get penile cancer - often the place this will occur in circumcised men is the circumcision scar.
https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penilecancer/detailedguide/penile-cancer-key-statistics

Why is the male foreskin the only healthy body part that people deem okay to remove in infanthood? Food for thought...

Over 100 baby boys die every year in America as a complication of undergoing circumcision, however this is presumed to be a conservative number and has been suggested that it could be up to 300. As per this article, more infant boys die from their circumcision than they do from SIDs and car accidents
https://www.examiner.com/article/ne...te-higher-than-suffocation-and-auto-accidents

The foreskin has many functions, and cutting it off actually changes the way it functions during sex. Men can absolutely still have sex (and enjoy it just fine) without a foreskin, but it will never be as it was supposed to be.

The foreskin also contains between approximately 10,000-20,000 fine touch nerve endings (similar to those in the palms of your hands, your lips etc) whereas the female clitoris contains approximately 8,000.
https://www.drmomma.org/2009/09/functions-of-foreskin-purposes-of.html
https://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/

The foreskin in babies and small children is fused tightly to the head of the penis by a thin piece of connective tissue called the balano-preputial lamina. This is why when you clean a baby/small child whose foreskin is intact, you only wipe like a finger. The foreskin is self cleaning, and this connective tissue helps keep bacteria etc out. Often if you have heard of a boy having to be circumcised because his foreskin became tight or he had a lot of infections, it can be due to the parents retracting the foreskin because they didn't know any better. This tissue will naturally dissolve anywhere between 3 years of age and puberty - this is totally normal
https://www.kidshealth.org.nz/foreskin-care

Lastly, I have heard of this Penn and Teller episode about circumcision being great for guys to watch as they can sometimes find it more relatable - this might be a good one for you and hubby to watch together!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmt1uPzlVaM

Hope this helps, and if you have any questions please feel free to message me!

 

[Feff]

I just don't understand why people would want it done for their kids? I don't know of any boy at all who's been circumcised. I wouldn't dream of it, I think it's more of a follow the crowd sort of thing in America? (I'm from the uk).

I think the argument that you (not aimed at anyone just in general) want it done so your son is the same as their dad is stupid tbh. How often will they be looking at their dads penis? It's like saying my mam has brown hair so they dyed my hair brown when I was born so I would be the same. Well, not really but you get the idea haha.

 

[rwhite]

This is food for thought regarding the argument of "it's better off if it's done as a baby":

https://i.imgur.com/n7ppdT6.jpg

 

[redneckhippy]

It is way more common in America as others have said. I don't know of any man who isn't circumcised or didn't have their son circumcised unless they are from another country. I've never actually seen an uncircumcised penis except on a little boy of a friend where the father is foreign. I believe US health officials, the American Academy of Pediatrics & the CDC recently came out supporting it...my mom sent me an article a few weeks ago, but they said the benefits outweigh the risks. But I do think it's largely cultural. I'm sure if I lived in Europe where its not common at all I wouldn't have it done.

 

[mel28nicole]

I think when it comes to this topic, its bias on where you're from. For example, this type of article is what we see in the US
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/circumcision-rates-declining-health-risks-rising-study-says/

 

[redneckhippy]

My MW asked about it at my appointment today and she confirmed that they definatley do use both pain medication AND a sugar coated pacifier.

 

[Feronia]

My MW asked about it at my appointment today and she confirmed that they definatley do use both pain medication AND a sugar coated pacifier.

What kind of pain medication? I would find out specifically, because there are several kinds and not ONE of them takes away the pain completely.

I hope you read through rwhite's long post because it was very informative and it's really good to know all of that before making a decision you can't take back!

 

[Feff]

My MW asked about it at my appointment today and she confirmed that they definatley do use both pain medication AND a sugar coated pacifier.

In every hospital though? The fact your midwife asked about it baffles me haha! I just can't imagine it being so common.

 

[MommyJogger]

My MW asked about it at my appointment today and she confirmed that they definatley do use both pain medication AND a sugar coated pacifier.

There are zero pain medications in the US approved for the procedure as a newborn that completely remove the pain. That's why they use the pacifier. There are still instances in the US where the pain is enough to send the newborn into shock (indicated when the baby "falls asleep" immediately following the cut).
ETA: I would also read the academic responses to the CDC recommendation.

 

[redneckhippy]

In every hospital though? The fact your midwife asked about it baffles me haha! I just can't imagine it being so common.

I can't speak for every hospital obviously. In my case it's done by the Ob at the office for my one week check up. Like has been mentioned several times, in the States it's very common and most of our medical assoications such as the AAP recommend it. My MW told me all of her sons were circumcised and that the Ob does them all the time and is very good. She said doing it at one week is good becuase the baby will be able to nurse immediately following the procedure.

 

[felix555]

That's quite strange they'll give a newborn pain meds? What would they give just out of interest? Like paracetamol? I'm only asking because my LO bad a lumbar puncture at 6 weeks old and he was not given any pain meds for it (bit of paracetamol I think after) ito. Pain a lumbar puncture and circ. must be comparable? .

I don't have any opinion on this, I have a son and he's not circumcised but I don't give much thought.