Circumsicion argument... **Page 11 OPs response**

[redneckhippy]

That's quite strange they'll give a newborn pain meds? What would they give just out of interest? Like paracetamol? I'm only asking because my LO bad a lumbar puncture at 6 weeks old and he was not given any pain meds for it (bit of paracetamol I think after) ito. Pain a lumbar puncture and circ. must be comparable? .

I don't have any opinion on this, I have a son and he's not circumcised but I don't give much thought.

She referred to it as a "block" but I'm not sure beyond that. I will ask the Ob before the procedure.

 

[felix555]

That's quite strange they'll give a newborn pain meds? What would they give just out of interest? Like paracetamol? I'm only asking because my LO bad a lumbar puncture at 6 weeks old and he was not given any pain meds for it (bit of paracetamol I think after) ito. Pain a lumbar puncture and circ. must be comparable? .

I don't have any opinion on this, I have a son and he's not circumcised but I don't give much thought.

She referred to it as a "block" but I'm not sure beyond that. I will ask the Ob before the procedure.

I think I'd want to know exactly what pain meds are used personally before the procedure gets done as it would play a role in my decision making if I decided to get it done ...

A) I'd like to know what the side effect are etc
B) I'd like to know how exactly the pain gets "blocked"

 

[redneckhippy]

I think I'd want to know exactly what pain meds are used personally before the procedure gets done as it would play a role in my decision making if I decided to get it done ...

A) I'd like to know what the side effect are etc
B) I'd like to know how exactly the pain gets "blocked"

He's not here yet, but I will definatley find out the specifics before.

 

[MommyJogger]

That's quite strange they'll give a newborn pain meds? What would they give just out of interest? Like paracetamol? I'm only asking because my LO bad a lumbar puncture at 6 weeks old and he was not given any pain meds for it (bit of paracetamol I think after) ito. Pain a lumbar puncture and circ. must be comparable? .

I don't have any opinion on this, I have a son and he's not circumcised but I don't give much thought.

She referred to it as a "block" but I'm not sure beyond that. I will ask the Ob before the procedure.

Just something else I wanted to add: most OBs who are not morally opposed to the procedure (most in the US) like to cite that the dorsal penile nerve block is "effective" in reducing pain, but I'd like to provide you with this publication discussing further pain relief in addition to the nerve block. The language they chose is interesting. They make it very clear that there is still pain and stress for the infant involved in the procedure, even with the sugary pacifier and lidocaine.

 

[lindblum]

To the OP -
My husband originally wanted to circumcise and I was against it. We talked about it and decided when our child is 12yrs+ he can make his own decision as to whether he wants it done. I don't know whether that's an option to you?

 

[NellyLou]

That's quite strange they'll give a newborn pain meds? What would they give just out of interest? Like paracetamol? I'm only asking because my LO bad a lumbar puncture at 6 weeks old and he was not given any pain meds for it (bit of paracetamol I think after) ito. Pain a lumbar puncture and circ. must be comparable? .

I don't have any opinion on this, I have a son and he's not circumcised but I don't give much thought.

She referred to it as a "block" but I'm not sure beyond that. I will ask the Ob before the procedure.

Just something else I wanted to add: most OBs who are not morally opposed to the procedure (most in the US) like to cite that the dorsal penile nerve block is "effective" in reducing pain, but I'd like to provide you with this publication discussing further pain relief in addition to the nerve block. The language they chose is interesting. They make it very clear that there is still pain and stress for the infant involved in the procedure, even with the sugary pacifier and lidocaine.

I think my question to these docs would be: "Would you have this procedure done to yourself using the exact same pain measures that are used on an infant?"

 

[felix555]

That's quite strange they'll give a newborn pain meds? What would they give just out of interest? Like paracetamol? I'm only asking because my LO bad a lumbar puncture at 6 weeks old and he was not given any pain meds for it (bit of paracetamol I think after) ito. Pain a lumbar puncture and circ. must be comparable? .

I don't have any opinion on this, I have a son and he's not circumcised but I don't give much thought.

She referred to it as a "block" but I'm not sure beyond that. I will ask the Ob before the procedure.

Just something else I wanted to add: most OBs who are not morally opposed to the procedure (most in the US) like to cite that the dorsal penile nerve block is "effective" in reducing pain, but I'd like to provide you with this publication discussing further pain relief in addition to the nerve block. The language they chose is interesting. They make it very clear that there is still pain and stress for the infant involved in the procedure, even with the sugary pacifier and lidocaine.

I think my question to these docs would be: "Would you have this procedure done to yourself using the exact same pain measures that are used on an infant?"

I'm guessing most will smile and say yes of course, how else will they earn a living?

Well I find this topic quite interesting, I have no idea how if would feel about it if I lived somewhere where this is routinely done but I'm quite glad it was not a choice I had to make.

 

[Julesillini8]

It is way more common in America as others have said. I don't know of any man who isn't circumcised or didn't have their son circumcised unless they are from another country. I've never actually seen an uncircumcised penis except on a little boy of a friend where the father is foreign. I believe US health officials, the American Academy of Pediatrics & the CDC recently came out supporting it...my mom sent me an article a few weeks ago, but they said the benefits outweigh the risks. But I do think it's largely cultural. I'm sure if I lived in Europe where its not common at all I wouldn't have it done.

It def is a US thing, as you can see from all the responses non US women give on here.
I see both sides, it's surely something to be thought about, thank goodness I've had girls!
But just reading this comment above, I've never seen an uncircumcised one either, on partners or on others' children. Every little boy I know has had it done.
It is interesting - if we don't make it a " you're a bad mother" debate- to hear from other places in the world, and how it is handled and viewed differently

 

[Tasha]

I agree it's interesting. I don't understand the being like daddy/other boys thing though as us girls aren't the same as each other.

 

[rwhite]

This article is really informative, describing differences between the intact adult penis and circumcised one - it also has a picture for those wanting to know the difference With most men, when they are erect you can't even noticeably tell there's a foreskin there anyway, as it retracts and the head is exposed

The article also contains some pictures of a freshly circumcised infant, so please proceed with caution if you are sensitive. Either way, though, if you do choose to circumcise this is something you will see so it could be worthwhile to see in advance.

https://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

 

[Kitteh_Kat]

In every hospital though? The fact your midwife asked about it baffles me haha! I just can't imagine it being so common.

Like has been mentioned several times, in the States it's very common and most of our medical assoications such as the AAP recommend it.

The AAP doesn't recommend it for every baby now though.

https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/prenatal/decisions-to-make/Pages/Where-We-Stand-Circumcision.aspx

The American Academy of Pediatrics believes that circumcision has potential medical benefits and advantages, as well as risks. Evaluation of current evidence indicates that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks and that the procedure's benefits justify access to this procedure for families who choose it, however, existing scientific evidence is not sufficient to recommend routine circumcision. Therefore, because the procedure is not essential to a child's current well-being, we recommend that the decision to circumcise is one best made by parents in consultation with their pediatrician, taking into account what is in the best interests of the child, including medical, religious, cultural, and ethnic traditions.

 

[misspriss]

I honestly don't understand those who say you can't compare it to FGM. Obviously, they are really quite similar.

FGM - removal of part or all of the external female genitalia to reduce "sexual urges" and satisfaction of the female.

Circumcision - removal of part of the male external genitalia, original reason to discourage masturbation (it has been "justified" since, that it's cleaner or something, but people aren't dropping dead from dirty penises in countries where they don't circumcise)

Granted, FGM can be WORSE as sometimes it's all, but the entire point is that it is removing part of the genitalia of a helpless child who cannot consent, purely for cosmetic purposes or relatively un-important health benefits. We only consider FGM so "horrific" and Circumcision a "parental choice" because it's what we've grown up with. Guess what, in countries where FGM is practiced, I bet it is considered a "parental choice" there too.

I'd would really love it if someone could explain how it's different. I am open to hear if someone wants to explain, I just can't see the difference. I may be wrong. I can admit that I don't know everything. I simply say both male and female children have just as much of a right to keep their bodies intact until they are old enough to make their own informed choices on the matter.

 

[Menelly]

That's quite strange they'll give a newborn pain meds? What would they give just out of interest? Like paracetamol? I'm only asking because my LO bad a lumbar puncture at 6 weeks old and he was not given any pain meds for it (bit of paracetamol I think after) ito. Pain a lumbar puncture and circ. must be comparable? .

I don't have any opinion on this, I have a son and he's not circumcised but I don't give much thought.

She referred to it as a "block" but I'm not sure beyond that. I will ask the Ob before the procedure.

It's the "dorsal nerve block", which numbs the *top half* of the penis. Not the bottom half. There is literally NOTHING but general anesthetic that they can safely use to numb the bottom half. Granted, half is better than nothing, but it's certainly not pain free by any scope of the imagination.

 

[rwhite]

]I simply say both male and female children have just as much of a right to keep their bodies intact until they are old enough to make their own informed choices on the matter.

I am of this mindset, too. At the most basic level, cutting of both female and male genitals for non-therapeutic reasons is the same thing...it removes healthy, sensitive sexual tissue from a person's genitals without their consent.

Some may not realise that circumcision of males became so popular in America because of a man named John Harvey Kellogg (yes, of Cornflakes fame!) - it was initially done to prevent boys from masturbating, because it was deemed dirty. Obviously this was entirely pointless, as we all know that it's still possible He also advocated for carbolic acid to be applied to the female clitoris for the same reason. So you will often hear people say "Oh, well, they're done for different reasons - women are circumcised so that they can no longer enjoy sex" - this was the initial intention for circumcising men, too!

Some also may not realise that in parts of Africa and other countries that have high Muslim populations (some Asian countries), women report sexual satisfaction and just like American men, they would happily circumcise their daughters to match them. The below video of Egyptian women illustrates this, they cut both their sons and their daughters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcJNAtn-c6I

A Tiny Cut: Female Circumcision in South East Asia:

https://www.theislamicmonthly.com/a-tiny-cut-female-circumcision-in-south-east-asia/

Female circumcision is not just performed with dirty equipment in unsterile areas - the most common types which are either a ritual scraping of the clitoris, or the removal of the clitoral hood (analogous to male circumcision) are very often performed in a doctor's office, just like male circumcision. And male circumcision in countries like Africa can sometimes be done in just an unsanitary way as the cutting and infibulation that is done to females.

In these countries, there are a lot of the same arguments used to justify the cutting of female babies and children as are used for male circumcision. This is a Muslim article giving some of these same reasons:
https://islamqa.info/en/45528

Some other interesting resources:
"Circumcised women can have healthy sex lives" - Expert says
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/02/19/circumcised-women-can-have-healthy-sex-lives-expert

Male and female genital cutting - some comparisons
https://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html

"The findings, underpinned by grounded theory,
corroborate earlier research and suggest not only that infibulation does not eliminate female sexual sensation and that the practice has no negative impact on psychosexual
life, but also that orgasm is not the principal measure of sexual satisfaction"
https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/8150/

https://commonhealth.wbur.org/2012/11/defense-female-circumcision

 

[rwhite]

That's quite strange they'll give a newborn pain meds? What would they give just out of interest? Like paracetamol? I'm only asking because my LO bad a lumbar puncture at 6 weeks old and he was not given any pain meds for it (bit of paracetamol I think after) ito. Pain a lumbar puncture and circ. must be comparable? .

I don't have any opinion on this, I have a son and he's not circumcised but I don't give much thought.

She referred to it as a "block" but I'm not sure beyond that. I will ask the Ob before the procedure.

It's the "dorsal nerve block", which numbs the *top half* of the penis. Not the bottom half. There is literally NOTHING but general anesthetic that they can safely use to numb the bottom half. Granted, half is better than nothing, but it's certainly not pain free by any scope of the imagination.

This is true. Studies have proven that there is no form of anesthesia able to be given to an infant that will completely eliminate the pain of being circumcised.

"None of the studied interventions completely eliminated the pain response to circumcision."
https://www.nichd.nih.gov/cochrane_data/brady-fryerb_01/brady-fryerb_01.html

"The adrenal cortisol response to surgery was not significantly reduced by the administration of lidocaine." - Even with a local nerve block, the cortisol response (this is a stress hormone) was not significantly reduced in the anesthetised infants when compared with those under no anesthetic.
https://cpj.sagepub.com/content/25/8/412.abstract

Other helpful links:
https://www.cirp.org/library/pain/
Infant circumcision with anesthesia - does it really help the pain:https://www.thewholenetwork.org/twn...-with-anesthesia-does-it-really-help-the-pain

 

[mel28nicole]

I swear some people have nothing better to do than spend so much time on research on a topic like this

Your baby your decisions. If you're really going to sit back and watch people argue over something that is very culturally based. I'm in the US, I would do it. Its what we do around here. I'm really not going to question it because doctors don't do things "just because they can." If it was a "dangerous" and "unnecessary" as you people are making it out to be, we wouldn't do it. I'm telling you, the information that is provided is very bias based on where you're from.

There's no reason to have super long posts to prove why you feel the way you feel. Its just like FF vs BF, traditional weaning vs BLW. This is turning into a "I'm right, your wrong" debate

 

[MommyJogger]

I swear some people have nothing better to do than spend so much time on research on a topic like this

Your baby your decisions. If you're really going to sit back and watch people argue over something that is very culturally based. I'm in the US, I would do it. Its what we do around here. I'm really not going to question it because doctors don't do things "just because they can." If it was a "dangerous" and "unnecessary" as you people are making it out to be, we wouldn't do it. I'm telling you, the information that is provided is very bias based on where you're from.

There's no reason to have super long posts to prove why you feel the way you feel. Its just like FF vs BF, traditional weaning vs BLW. This is turning into a "I'm right, your wrong" debate

Are you seriously criticizing that someone spent time researching something that will affect their child for the rest of the kid's life and providing factual information to others? You do realize that doctors used to say that newborns couldn't feel pain, so they cut off part of a boys penis with literally nothing to help the pain? So the whole "doctors would never do anything to harm us" thing is inane.
For what it's worth, we live in the same state. People in my town very rarely circumcise because it's a very progressive college town. Also, did you not read why it started in the first place? To prevent masturbation? How is that not unnecessary?
It is cutting the genitals of someone incapable of fighting back and you're comparing it to weaning method. I'm astonished.

 

[Feronia]

If it was a "dangerous" and "unnecessary" as you people are making it out to be, we wouldn't do it. I'm telling you, the information that is provided is very bias based on where you're from.

This line of reasoning just doesn't work. About 117 boys die in the United States every year from circumcision. Since circumcision is entirely elective, all of these deaths are avoidable. Obviously it is still performed. Most men in the world are intact (over 80%) and their penises are fine. The US is the only Western country in the world to perform circumcision so routinely, so you can hardly call it necessary. Not everybody circumcises their baby boys in the US either -- thankfully the rate is declining! My husband is intact (we were both raised in the US) and very happy that his parents left him that way. My brother is circumcised, and my mother regrets doing it now since she now understands better what she did -- and my brother wishes he wasn't.

 

[misspriss]

If it was a "dangerous" and "unnecessary" as you people are making it out to be, we wouldn't do it. I'm telling you, the information that is provided is very bias based on where you're from.

If it's not unnecessary, can you explain to me why it is necessary?

BTW, I'm in the US.

 

[felix555]

I swear some people have nothing better to do than spend so much time on research on a topic like this

Your baby your decisions. If you're really going to sit back and watch people argue over something that is very culturally based. I'm in the US, I would do it. Its what we do around here. I'm really not going to question it because doctors don't do things "just because they can." If it was a "dangerous" and "unnecessary" as you people are making it out to be, we wouldn't do it. I'm telling you, the information that is provided is very bias based on where you're from.

There's no reason to have super long posts to prove why you feel the way you feel. Its just like FF vs BF, traditional weaning vs BLW. This is turning into a "I'm right, your wrong" debate

A lot of the people that are against it on this thread are in the US