Disco Derail! - TTCAL/PAL Discussion and Support!

[NatoPMT]

Such a sad sad story about the aqua natal baby, so traumatic, how would you ever get over that? It terrifies me - its stopped me co sleeping as im just too scared to, but i do put eloise in my bed at about 5-6am when she starts grunting and snuffling - she sleeps better with us.

I have never had a monitor, i think they are good specifically for sleep apnea but if your baby is going to have true SIDS, nothing can stop that happening. And nothing can bring them back from what i have read.

The best risk lowerer seems to be a fan in the room and having the baby sleep in the room with you. 65% of SIDS babies had covers over their faces in 1 study, but 75% were in a different room to the carer. It can happen even when a baby is being held though, but its very rare

Hearty, the UK guideline is to keep your baby with you at all times for 6 months, which is what i have done. No naps in diff rooms - nothing. One theory is that they can hear you breath which 'reminds' them to breath

Sassy, re: your argument, i see your situation echoed for all of us. I think that given our history, we do have to be aware how our behaviour towards our child can be about our own needs and experiences which can take over the 'instinct' for parenting. Part of the instinct is to allow separation and independence in your child at the appropriate time as the child grows and needs some independence at the appropriate age. I disagree that being with her all the time might make poppy clingy, as what she needs is a responsive parent atuned to her needs which you clearly are...but what might cause her problems is if it upsets you to be away from her. Her separation anxiety is a natural stage that all babies go through, but if that taps into your separation anxiety then you might feed off each other so in that case your oh might have a point. I haven't read up on how to deal with it so i can't offer my own reaction to it, but i think in the fact that you are atuned to poppy, that will allow her real security, and some people do deal with the separation phase by just not separating. She is little, and you are all she needs and you are her safe base to explore the world from....so don't let others cloud your true instincts or tell you your true instincts are damaging poppy, but then you need to know that your true instincts aren't being clouded by your fears or anxieties. Maybe invite family round and specifically let others play with her and hold her while you are there as a compromise

Im not going to comment too much on the park woman. I had similar feelings about my mc and my therapist actually half agreed with me - i was really shocked because i thought she was going to put my mind at rest. In retrospect im not sure if she agreed with me having the feelings, or the feelings themselves, but i said 'what if the baby thought i didnt want it' and she nodded rather than challenged.

Jen - congrats on the boyby!!! Sorry about Paul's job, thats so shite. Tuesday is fine btw!! I will see you and Mr Lindt Bunny then

Afm: Eloise is more amazing and hilarious and beautiful every day. I have decided she will be vegetarian after all. She is too innocent and sweet to eat meat. Managed to get John to agree

A drinking pal of mine (one of Johns friends) has been outed as the Man Who Broke Adele's Heart. I don't see him often now, but remember the events at the time and the whole thing smacks of total crap.

For any SE discoers, there's a feature about John in Shortlist next week

love to penny, alistair, ben, hero, luca, pops, harry, indigo, april and kash and assorted babies still in bumps and assorted grown ups.

 

[heart tree]

Nato, so lovely to see you. I'm glad you got John to agree on the vegetarianism. I'll need a step-by-step instruction guide on how to do that with Tim when the time is right. I was going to FB you today about the topic. You are now my official idol for convincing a meat eater against meat for his child. Well done!

So does Eloise nap in the same room as you? That's so interesting about the idea that they need to hear you breathe.

What does the fan do? My plan is to have her right next to me in bed, but not in my bed until 6 months at least and we'll take it from there. I can easily have a fan if that's what is called for.

 

[heart tree]

Oh, and boo on anyone who breaks Adele's heart! Though we did benefit from some amazing songs, but still! She deserves a real man!

 

[NatoPMT]

I am veggie victorious!!! I'll coach you in.

Yes, she's asleep next to me right now in the living room. snuffling and sighing away. when i go to bed i carry her in her moses basket through to the bedroom, and she's 18 pounds now so thats no easy task.

i think the fan risk reduction is because of air circulation. the co2 is flapped away by the fan. i looked into all sorts like having plants in the bedroom (which doesnt help, espec as they give off co2 at night) but the best thing to do is to have her by your side. you even have to have showers with a little face peering at you through the shower door.

ive lost a bit of respect for adele after having it confirmed that he was the one the songs were about - i always thought it was but the content of her songs persuaded me otherwise. would love to say more but i'd better not.

 

[LucyJ]

nato its lovely to see you

My baby boy is 8 months today I cant quite believe how quickly it has gone

 

[NatoPMT]

ahh!! happy 8 months babyben! I thought of Ben today Luce

Eloise was in her jumperoo and her head was forward like she was asleep, i bent down to have a look and she was licking the jumperoo seat

i had a giggle to meself about the both of them

 

[LucyJ]

what a great pair they would make!

 

[Allie84]

Hmmm, we have a fan going every night but with that and the noise machine (ocean sounds), I'm not sure Alistair is getting the benefit of actually hearing Alex and I breathe. SIDS is just so scary. And I'm quite careful of keeping the room cool, to the point where I think he might be too cold to sleep comfortably if he wasn't swaddled...and we're trying to wean him off the swaddle now. So much to think about!!!

That is SUCH a horrible story about the aqua natal baby. I sometimes let Alistair nap in bed with me, but I don't know if I'll be doing that anymore!

BTW Cesca, what kind of sleep training did you do? It's been suggested to me to try sleep training to get Alistair to nap (he doesn't) but I'm not sure if I'm up for cry-it-out. Are there other ways or is that pretty much it?

Happy 8 months, Ben!!!!

Lucy, have fun at your parents. You asked about my mum...her bipolar has still been acting up recently. It makes life stressful, for sure. I wish we could live in Scotland again (I remember you asking about that as well and forgot to answer) but I just feel too responsible for my parents. I think we will try to settle down there in the future for good, though. I don't know if that will be in 5 year or 25 years, though. I guess I have to see how well my parents are doing...it'd be hard to be away from them when they need me, but if they start doing better we might leave...and also, when they've passed away I know for sure I want to be in the UK over the USA. I'm pretty sure it's where we're meant to be.

Sassy, what an absolutely gorgeous bump you have. Love the top as well.

Nato, ooooh, love the gossip. You travel in some interesting circles! My social life is much more mundane. Sometimes when Alistair cries I still think of that friend of yours who makes his baby cry for fun. I have to say Adele bores me...she's not really my cup of tea. I guess I like the song 'Rumour Has It'. Anyways, Is the feature on John available online?

Round, hahahahaha, I love your Vicky dream!! So did she deliver the baby? I wonder if you gave birth in Wal-mart because of the book/movie Where the Heart Is?

Vicky, I hope you find a good place to move soon. Dogs DEFINITELY make the move harder over here as well, if you're renting.

 

[vickyd]

Whats all this with Adele??? I need to read up on my gossip me thinks!

Today im gonna book two appointments to see two more flats that opened up a few minutes walk from my parents. One is much smaller than the one we have now lounge wise but it has 2 bedrooms and the other is much larger with 3 bedrooms. The larger one is older and on the top floor of a two story house with no lift. This might be hard with the pram and all but its also much cheaper than the flat were renting at the moment. Hopefully the dog issue wont come up again!

Other news is that my sis has a date with a 28 year old tonight. Apparently hes mega hot and shes got quite the crush on him. He doesnt know that shes 36 lol! Hope it goes well and he doesnt mind the age difference. Guys here are weary of women in their 30s as they see them as looking for a father of their unborn children and mentally planning their wedding.

On the bumper issue, I caved and got Hero bumpers at 7 months. She kept banging her head againt the cot rails and would wake up every half hour.

Nato good to see you back! I cant beleive your therapist actually agreed with you. More likely she just agreed that its a normal feeling to have. Any other explanation is just crazy!

 

[NatoPMT]

Morning kids.

Hearty, forgot to say last night re the breathing thing, i used to get massive comfort from putting eloise on my chest when she was asleep so she could feel my breathing as well as hearing it. It was a midwife who told me that hearing breathing reminds them to breath.

Allie, good thinking...I just checked and shortlist is online https://www.shortlist.com/

If the feature is on the website i shall post it on my fb. Its actually usually johns friends who provide the interest at the moment. I used to work for Cosmopolitan and have loads of my own gossip but thats tailed off since hanging round down at the playgroups.

in the uk they say not to swaddle due to sids risk, but i always did with eloise as it helped her sleep. Its an overheating risk but the fan and cool room sound like they mitigate that risk which you probably know already. I honestly think if its going to happen there's nothing you can do to stop it. The fan probably cancels out the not hearing the breathing anyway. I have the oven extractor on in the day to help eloise sleep so she cant hear me during her naps either.

I wouldnt worry too much about napping in the bed together. If you are napping you prob arent going into a deep sleep which is when most of the co-sleeping issues arise, like overheating, suffocation and trapping in the gaps between the bed and the mattress. True sids is reduced by co-sleeping i believe, the other co-sleeping causes can usually be established so they arent technically sids

Actually cesca i thought drinking before co-sleeping was an issue for going into too deep a sleep, i didnt realise drinking made toxins be exhaled like smoking does.

Vic:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepa...1-revealed-as-photographer-Alex-Sturrock.html

what the feature says is pretty accurate, except for a couple of points which i just typed out, then thought better of it as this is public. If you are really nosey i can pm you for what little gossip i have

Vic, is there somewhere to leave the pram in the hall? lugging a baby and shopping up the steps doesnt sound like fun, but my friend lives on the 3rd floor with her child and shes pregnant again. Set up a pulley system out of the window like they have in amsterdam. I'm not sure what my therapist meant as when she nodded she kind of said 'hmm yes' which i took to mean my fear was a valid one

just watched One Born Every Minute: What Happened Next. I swear if i watched that before having a baby, i wouldn't ever have one. The opera singer was the archetypal downtrodden stressed mother who feels she's lost herself in motherhood. Not sure why on earth she was talking about having a 4th child - she's going to send herself mental.

eloise is not talking to john this morning - she slid off him onto the floor and bumped her forehead now she wont look at him and will only smile at me. He's got some grovelling to do to make it up to her.

 

[vickyd]

Defo want more inside gossip on the Adele front!!!

I havent seen the flat yet up close. Hopefully they will let us see it tonight. If there is a good size hall ill be storing the pram there definately unless the other occupants have a problem with that. The shopping and stuff i have no problem with, i use the stairs where i live now instead of the lift everytime exept when i have the pram. Good exercise lugging up bags lol!

I agree that proper co-sleeping actually reduces the risk of SIDS. Ive read up alot on co-sleeping and many anthropological studies regarding attitudes to co-sleeping around the world. Co-sleeping is the norm in most parts of Africa, Asia and in tribal communities. I think the problem in the west is that they lump suffocation, overheating and other such fatal accidents with SIDS when really SIDS is an un-explained death. Co-sleeing is a basic animal instict and has been done for thousands of years.

Did you freak out when Eloise fell on her head???? The first time Hero fell still haunts me lol!

 

[NatoPMT]

it wasnt a serious bump, she landed on a few layers of quilt on the floor and only cried for about 10 seconds. she's still not talking to john though. Id be worried but shes smiling and giggling at me so she mustnt have hurt herself

i agree, the definition of sids is 'unexplained' - im sure one day they will work it out, but they dont even know what causes colic crying so maybe not. I read a heartbreaking account of sids online and the mother who wrote it said that once the process has started there is absolutely nothing that can be done to bring the baby back or to stop it.

2 flights of steps and shopping is my idea of a nightmare <lazyface>

 

[vickyd]

So we went and saw the bigger flat, it was a complete stye....It was spacious and all but needs serious work done that the landlord isnt willing to pay for and we certainly cant afford. This house hunting malarky is getting very fustrating....

 

[jenny25]

Hey guys all settled into the new place bloody exausted tho on a brighter note Paul felt the Kieran kick last night it was amazing he said it was like someone poking you lol xx

NATO thank you so much means the works too me xxx

 

[prgirl_cesca]

OMG Cesca, that is so sad! That must have been so scary for all the other moms to hear. So are you saying that wine increases the risk because she was breast feeding?

Toxins on the breath just like smoking, apparently. Although she was breastfeeding - it's another myth that breastfed babies do not die of SIDS.

I thought bumpers and quilts were a no no. Oh I'm so confused!

I don't use a quilt yet with Luca because he wriggles about so much and he'd get cold. I've used a bumper since he was about 6 months old, he sleeps better with a bumper because he doesn't bump his head!

BTW Cesca, what kind of sleep training did you do? It's been suggested to me to try sleep training to get Alistair to nap (he doesn't) but I'm not sure if I'm up for cry-it-out. Are there other ways or is that pretty much it?

Well we didn't really sleep train in terms of picking one technique and if that didn't try moving on. But i'll say it in that it was very important to us that Luca would sleep well - we are both really sleep orientated people and honestly I feel like I find everything so much harder if i'm tired. I'd rather go through a few hard times getting him to sleep than live my life constantly on edge because i've had no sleep.

We never did 'cry it out'. We always did shhhh/pat if he was upset and it is a lifesaver (for extending naps and in the middle of the night too), a really good wind down sleep routine, singing the same song for him to go to sleep, not going up if he's just having a bit of a moan etc.

Although I have let him cry sometimes, more like controlled crying though where I would go in at intervals (never timed like CC though, more like when I felt he needed some settling) and understanding what is a real 'I need you' cry. I am also an advocate of if you find things too hard, just walk outside and leave them screaming for a little while why you get your head together and take some deep breaths. I took the dummy away at 6 months too and did shhh/pat and pick up/put down to get him through that process and now my friends are going through the phase of their older child waking frequently in the night just for their dummy - I'm not.

It's been tough sometimes and I know my methods wouldn't be used by some mothers as sometimes it has involved crying, but never badly or for hours on end. I would not be able to handle that. Who knows if he'll have trust issues when older like some attachment parents suggest, I don't think so. He'll benefit much more from a mother who has more patience and more time to interact with him when he's awake though because she's had more sleep!

I did start all this very young though - like when he was 4-6 weeks old, because I was so sleep deprived and seriously wanting to just run away from it all because of it. He was in his own room at 8 weeks old too, because us moving would wake him up and because of his laryngomalacia his breathing was VERY loud we would hardly get any sleep either.

Not for everyone though. I hope you don't all hate me now and think I'm a bad mother!!

 

[prgirl_cesca]

I read a heartbreaking account of sids online and the mother who wrote it said that once the process has started there is absolutely nothing that can be done to bring the baby back or to stop it.

The husband of the girl I know spent 15 mins trying to revive their baby before the ambulance arrived. That's what I find so distressing - them working on this obviously dead child trying their hardest to make him wake up

Two days younger than Luca. Two days. All they've missed out on that i've been lucky enough to see

 

[NatoPMT]

Cesca, i just dare anyone to say you are a bad mother. I know no one on this thread would but the whole my technique is better than your technique rivalry between factions of mothers is revolting if you ask me. What makes a bad mother is a judgemental harpy who loves to preach. Not that im judging the judgemental...ahem.

I always think that the worst effect on a baby is an unhappy mother - that overrides the effect of any technique i believe. If the mother is happy, the baby is likely to be happy. So if you needed to do something you are concerned others wouldn't have done, you know your situation and what you need to do, no one else does.

the best thing about this thread is we are able to be honest with each other. without honesty then there's no real support.

I felt a cold shiver when you said about the parents trying to revive their little baby. It makes me feel physically sick to think of what they must have been through and are still going through.

Vic...sorry the flat turned out to be crappy...anything else lined up to see? I think i remember you saying that the crisis has made the rental market very tough too with high rents. have i missed an update on your af situation?

Jen- love the name, matches so nicely with aaron too. Kieran and Aaron. Also, i know 4 Kieran's and they are all ace people. I hate it when someone names their child 'sophie' cos i went to school with a right silly cow called sophie.

I forgot to twit twoo at everyones nurseries - they look amazing!! Mine is actually coming together now. Weirdly, i have somehow managed to make all the mismatched elements work together. I had a flash of inspiration and painted a pine mini wardrobe eau de nil blue and put sapphire blue glass handles on it, and its just pulled all the different colours together. Everything that doesn't match now fits somehow. I'm now painting the cot chalk pink then will post a photo

 

[vickyd]

Nope no other flats lined up at the mo....By this rate Hero will be sleeping with us until she leaves for college...
Property prices are still high although for the life of me i dont understand why! I thought crisis meant prices went down...sigh....

Cesca obviously youre not a bad monther crazy fool! I think its interesting though that new mothers seem to have to justify their parenting in the fear that they will be labeled a bad parent. I get alot of critisism from friends and extended family for choosing to work long hours and going on buisness trips. Although i usually tell them to mind their own buisness sometimes i go on and on about why i am doing this...I wish we could all feel confident that we are doing the best we can.

Today Hero ate a ball of popi's fur! She's shedding like mad and im not keeping up with the housework lately. I felt so bad (insert bad mommy guilt here) and got to cleaning right away. The fur...oh my god the massive amount of fur that i cleaned away...totally gross...

 

[NatoPMT]

I think its interesting though that new mothers seem to have to justify their parenting in the fear that they will be labeled a bad parent.

in my experience, it seems everyone has somert to say about what im doing. If i hear one more person say 'well we didn't do it like that' I am going to launch a spinning kick. Fuck off with your 'put her in another room to sleep' and 'leave her alone' when she starts 'fussing'.

Doesn't matter what you do, someone will have a raised eyebrow for you. Screw them. Do what is right for you.

Cant wait to start having to defend Eloise being vegetarian. That is going to open a floodgate. Im going to be swimming in criticism.

The house hunting sounds like a nightmare. My FIL's labrador sprays everywhere with fur just walking past nonchalantly in December. So a furry dog in a Greek climate is going to kick out some serious hair balls i bet

Vic did you get my fb message? I only ask cos its not like you to not respond

 

[vickyd]

No....off to see why i wasnt notified of said message!!

I would like to see you living in Greece defending Eloise being a vegetarian!!!!!