EDL nonsense.

[Kate&Lucas]

I am a little sad that subway won't be using bacon anymore though. I find that a bit crazy, and will only add fuel to the fire to all of the bigots and xenophobics out there.

They are still selling bacon. It's only in areas with a large Muslim population that it'll be removed, simply because it wasn't selling well and is a waste of money to stock. I believe it's being withdrawn in less than 200 out of 1500 Subway stores, so the vast majority of customers won't be affected.

I find the Halal meat 'scandal' a bit ridiculous. Is anyone aware how the meat they're eating was killed? Sat in Maccies scoffing down a burger with the flesh of about 300 different cows all mushed into one greasy patty does it occur to us how they were slaughtered? Honestly, I haven't got a clue what the 'non-Halal' method is. No-one else seems to know in all the debating going on around social media, just the same whining "Oh no! They cut it's throat and said a prayer, this is a disgrace!".
I also happened to point out that pretty much all of the takeaways/kebab shops/pizza places in town are Halal (says so on the signs outside), but no-one seems arsed when they're stumbling out of a club at 3am looking for some food. That didn't get much response either People just like to get angry at stuff when it suits them.

 

[ttc_lolly]

You don't know the legal way animals are slaughtered? I thought everyone did! I can understand people not knowing or caring how animals lived before they died but thought most people would want to know that the animals were killed humanely before shoving said fat greasy burger down their necks! The fact you didn't know is just crazy to me, I can't understand why anyone would eat meat without thinking first how that animal had to die in order to feed them.

 

[Kate&Lucas]

Nope, never occurred to me. I asked a few people and no-one seems to know.

 

[Eternal]

I didn't really, I had always assumed that animals were culled via bullet to brain type thing. I accepted that reality. It's only been now since all this came to light I looked it up.

I don't really understand it, from my understanding the difference is that hafal meat is NOT stunned before being slaughtered and a prayer is said, However most places are saying teby do stun the animals, so I'm a little confused, is it really halal meat then? If the only difference really is a prayer than I can't really see why people would object, however if it's true hafal and not stunned then yes, I do see an issue.

I do try to buy organically, locally, non battery etc. So the way the animal dies does matter although I admit I was wrong before, although it seems like most are culled via the method I thought and then slaughtered.

As for pulling bacon, I agree to the supply and demand, it makes no sense to stock an item that won't be used, although you wonder why they can't just order smaller numbers, but I guess that just comes down to individual stores.

 

[bumpy_j]

Personally I would be uncomfortable with eating non-stunned Halal/Kosher meat and would prefer to be informed of such a process, but I am pretty big on animal welfare as a whole.

It's pissing me off that people are complaining about it on my facebook who I know literally do not give two shits about battery farming or slaughter malpractice any other day of the year. With Halal meat, the animals are generally treated better in life than the meat you'll get from your average fast food outlet. It's like when people who have never been to a church service say England is a Christian country

 

[emyandpotato]

But the places under scrutiny such as Pizza Express have actually said that their meat is stunned first. So it sounds like it's just the issue of alternative cultural norms being seen as taking over British culture, whatever that is. I agree that all animals should be treated well and stunned before slaughter but I really doubt that is the issue as it's very rare for the meat we eat, especially from fast food places, to have lived a life that would be considered humane. Even the free range dairy cows you see everywhere in the UK are bred yearly to keep them as dairy cows, and the male calves are taken away almost immediately and shipped to Holland where they are boxed and fattened up and sold back to England as British meat. But there was never a huge uproar about this before, only when halal was mentioned.

 

[bumpy_j]

But the places under scrutiny such as Pizza Express have actually said that their meat is stunned first. So it sounds like it's just the issue of alternative cultural norms being seen as taking over British culture, whatever that is. I agree that all animals should be treated well and stunned before slaughter but I really doubt that is the issue as it's very rare for the meat we eat, especially from fast food places, to have lived a life that would be considered humane. Even the free range dairy cows you see everywhere in the UK are bred yearly to keep them as dairy cows, and the male calves are taken away almost immediately and shipped to Holland where they are boxed and fattened up and sold back to England as British meat. But there was never a huge uproar about this before, only when halal was mentioned.

Yeah I think it's about 90% - 94% of UK Halal meat that's stunned, and I'm not really bothered one way or the other if that's labelled.

 

[Abigailly]

Delete him. I don't see any reason to keep poison in like that in your life. We had an SDL rally near us recently because of a Halal issue in a small restaurant and I've never seen hypocrisy like it.

My aunt and uncle own a large spread farm in Leeds. Which, obviously, it's surrounding areas have a large Muslim community.

Around 25% of their cattle and goats go to market, instead on straight to slaughter. Which means butchers etc buy them. Mainly religious butchers for the likes of Halal and Shechita. People are kicking up a stink about Halal, but only 10% of Shecita is stunned prior to cut. Yet that's in circulation?

As for Halal, official figures show roughly 10% of sheep and 3% or cattle, in general circulation (so not including food sold in the likes of butchers where it obviously can't be monitored) aren't stunned, pre cut. Over all, including poultry and goats around 88% of general circ H meat is pre stunned.
They are only potential figures though, obviously it depends on the slaughter house and how each place interprets 'fully alive'. Many Muslims see that as not stunned.

I have seen animals slaughtered. I've even gone as far as pre stunning them during the foot and mouth epidemic. And I can honestly say I've never seen anything as heart breaking as an un stunned animal (just from videos) being slaughtered. The fact they see it happening to those infront of them and often panic before hand.And unfortunately the numbers from un stunned Halal is rising. Because of changes in religious beliefs and because of costs.

I choose to not eat housed cattle, knowingly. I choose not to eat caged hens, knowingly. And because of my own moral and religious beliefs (I'm Catholic, ) I choose not to eat Halal meat, knowingly. And I really dislike that animals that have been slaughtered against the norm haven't been declared. People are allowed to kick up a fuss about what they put into them. And just because they've never cared before doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to start now it has all been brought to media attention and therefore, theirs.

 

[pinkpolkadot]

Delete him. I don't see any reason to keep poison in like that in your life. We had an SDL rally near us recently because of a Halal issue in a small restaurant and I've never seen hypocrisy like it.

My aunt and uncle own a large spread farm in Leeds. Which, obviously, it's surrounding areas have a large Muslim community.

Around 25% of their cattle and goats go to market, instead on straight to slaughter. Which means butchers etc buy them. Mainly religious butchers for the likes of Halal and Shechita. People are kicking up a stink about Halal, but only 10% of Shecita is stunned prior to cut. Yet that's in circulation?

As for Halal, official figures show roughly 10% of sheep and 3% or cattle, in general circulation (so not including food sold in the likes of butchers where it obviously can't be monitored) aren't stunned, pre cut. Over all, including poultry and goats around 88% of general circ H meat is pre stunned.
They are only potential figures though, obviously it depends on the slaughter house and how each place interprets 'fully alive'. Many Muslims see that as not stunned.

I have seen animals slaughtered. I've even gone as far as pre stunning them during the foot and mouth epidemic. And I can honestly say I've never seen anything as heart breaking as an un stunned animal (just from videos) being slaughtered. The fact they see it happening to those infront of them and often panic before hand.And unfortunately the numbers from un stunned Halal is rising. Because of changes in religious beliefs and because of costs.

I choose to not eat housed cattle, knowingly. I choose not to eat caged hens, knowingly. And because of my own moral and religious beliefs (I'm Catholic, ) I choose not to eat Halal meat, knowingly. And I really dislike that animals that have been slaughtered against the norm haven't been declared. People are allowed to kick up a fuss about what they put into them. And just because they've never cared before doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to start now it has all been brought to media attention and therefore, theirs.

Always very interesting to hear from someone who knows the business thanks!

I had read that one of the rules of Halal was that the animals must not see the others in front being slaughtered?

https://halalfoodauthority.com/index.php/resources/definition-of-halal

 

[Paloma123]

They use a recoverable stun (if one IS used) as opposed to a captive bolt stun.. Aside from all the other issues involved (bear with me) and just focusing on animal welfare for a sec, I think unless you're a hardcore vegan and have literally NO dealing with anything animal derived (milk, honey, silk clothes, leather shoes and car seats/sofas, angora, feathers, cashmere, god knows what else!) then really nobody can say they advovate animal welfare and care about the animals. I do think for a lot of people it's the other issues too, such as the tax and VAT exemptions that come with Halal accreditation through some charity loophole, profits indirectly going to Zatak which in turn funds terrorism and just the simple issue of the meat not being labelled as Halal. It's infiltrated the mainstream without anyone being told, and has taken away a simple basic right of freedom of choice purely to serve a minority (less than 5%). It's just pushed upon you, and for hardcore Christians it's actually against THEIR religion to eat meat which has been sacrificed/killed in the name of a false idol (in this case, Allah). If people are all in favour of halal meat which is a Sharia Law, then in turn you're also agreeing with the Sharia law for crime and offence and having limbs amputated. Where does it end?! Anyway, rant over x

 

[ttc_lolly]

That's crazy. I don't think you have to be a vegan to care that the meat you consumed was from an animal that was at least killed humanely first I always try to by free range and organic where possible but I could never eat something that had been killed horrifically. And I still find it strange that people would think slitting an animals throat whilst it was aware and conscious was "standard" practice

Funnily enough I've just seen a post on Facebook, not as harsh as what the OP had on hers, but it was just a video of traditional halal slaughter and it made me cry. I feel absolutely sick to my stomach. I would never condemn a person for their religion or beliefs but the traditional slaughter needs to be made more humane worldwide.

 

[bumpy_j]

They use a recoverable stun (if one IS used) as opposed to a captive bolt stun.. Aside from all the other issues involved (bear with me) and just focusing on animal welfare for a sec, I think unless you're a hardcore vegan and have literally NO dealing with anything animal derived (milk, honey, silk clothes, leather shoes and car seats/sofas, angora, feathers, cashmere, god knows what else!) then really nobody can say they advovate animal welfare and care about the animals. I do think for a lot of people it's the other issues too, such as the tax and VAT exemptions that come with Halal accreditation through some charity loophole, profits indirectly going to Zatak which in turn funds terrorism and just the simple issue of the meat not being labelled as Halal. It's infiltrated the mainstream without anyone being told, and has taken away a simple basic right of freedom of choice purely to serve a minority (less than 5%). It's just pushed upon you, and for hardcore Christians it's actually against THEIR religion to eat meat which has been sacrificed/killed in the name of a false idol (in this case, Allah). If people are all in favour of halal meat which is a Sharia Law, then in turn you're also agreeing with the Sharia law for crime and offence and having limbs amputated. Where does it end?! Anyway, rant over x

Bullshit. Wishing that an animal would have a full, happy and safe life and eating meat is not incompatible. Exactly why some people don't eat veal or lamb and protest about unethical practices I don't exactly think hoards and hoards of released chickens would last very long outside of protective fencing and security measures either.

Can Christians not eat Kosher meat then? Because most sects of Islam permit it.

 

[Paloma123]

Here we go with the pack mentality attack typical of b&b

 

[bumpy_j]

Here we go with the pack mentality attack typical of b&b

...why would you come to the debates section if you didn't want a debate?

 

[Paloma123]

Here we go with the pack mentality attack typical of b&b

...why would you come to the debates section if you didn't want a debate?

Because you're not reading the whole post. You have picked one sentence out of my whole post. Is this about halal meat, or animal welfare?

 

[bumpy_j]

Here we go with the pack mentality attack typical of b&b

...why would you come to the debates section if you didn't want a debate?

Because you're not reading the whole post. You have picked one sentence out of my whole post. Is this about halal meat, or animal welfare?

Not just one sentence, I also asked a question because I doubt the authenticity of what you're saying about the 'false idol' claim. If Muslims can eat Kosher meat, then why can't Christians eat Halal? It's not something I've heard of before, and I was a practicing Christian for many years.

I picked on that sentence because it's a hurtful thing to say. I care very deeply about animal welfare, but I also eat meat. I do not think that my opinion is invalid on the subject because I haven't given up all resources directly from animals.

 

[Paloma123]

Here we go with the pack mentality attack typical of b&b

...why would you come to the debates section if you didn't want a debate?

Because you're not reading the whole post. You have picked one sentence out of my whole post. Is this about halal meat, or animal welfare?

Not just one sentence, I also asked a question because I doubt the authenticity of what you're saying about the 'false idol' claim. If Muslims can eat Kosher meat, then why can't Christians eat Halal? It's not something I've heard of before, and I was a practicing Christian for many years.

I picked on that sentence because it's a hurtful thing to say. I care very deeply about animal welfare, but I also eat meat. I do not think that my opinion is invalid on the subject because I haven't given up all resources directly from animals.

Do you know what, yeah i apologise for wording it like, I eat meat too and I'd like to think I care about the animals.

As for Christians not eating Halal, I have found it is more the 'hardcore' Christians who take this stance. This segment is copied and pasted, but it can give you the link to the whole page if you'd like a good read. In a nutshell, don't eat food that's offered/sacrificed/ killed in the name of a false idol, being Allah in this case.

The same problem existed in Corinth . This is what Paul wrote to the believers there:
1 Cor. 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your’s become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
It seems from what the Apostle is saying that although Christ is bigger than the idols to which the meat is offered, and the meat would not defile the mature believer, nevertheless it is an act of witness to those who are weak to refuse it. The weak might be those young in the faith or even those of another faith.

I think to call people racist just because they're unhappy about halal meat and it's method of slaughtering and voicing their opinions on Facebook or wherever, is really unfair. It's not racist. Islam is a religion, not a race. I for one am concerned about the other factors involved as well as the animal welfare side of it. Yeah, you're gonna get those BNP nutters who are racist jumping on the bandwagon purely cause it's bashing down Islam and Muslims, but they have no credible argument as their reasons are, for most of them, bullshit. They will moan about halal meat yet go for a beer and have a curry.

Again, I apologise if I offended you.

 

[bumpy_j]

Here we go with the pack mentality attack typical of b&b

...why would you come to the debates section if you didn't want a debate?

Because you're not reading the whole post. You have picked one sentence out of my whole post. Is this about halal meat, or animal welfare?

Not just one sentence, I also asked a question because I doubt the authenticity of what you're saying about the 'false idol' claim. If Muslims can eat Kosher meat, then why can't Christians eat Halal? It's not something I've heard of before, and I was a practicing Christian for many years.

I picked on that sentence because it's a hurtful thing to say. I care very deeply about animal welfare, but I also eat meat. I do not think that my opinion is invalid on the subject because I haven't given up all resources directly from animals.

Do you know what, yeah i apologise for wording it like, I eat meat too and I'd like to think I care about the animals.

As for Christians not eating Halal, I have found it is more the 'hardcore' Christians who take this stance. This segment is copied and pasted, but it can give you the link to the whole page if you'd like a good read. In a nutshell, don't eat food that's offered/sacrificed/ killed in the name of a false idol, being Allah in this case.

The same problem existed in Corinth . This is what Paul wrote to the believers there:
1 Cor. 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your’s become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
It seems from what the Apostle is saying that although Christ is bigger than the idols to which the meat is offered, and the meat would not defile the mature believer, nevertheless it is an act of witness to those who are weak to refuse it. The weak might be those young in the faith or even those of another faith.

I think to call people racist just because they're unhappy about halal meat and it's method of slaughtering and voicing their opinions on Facebook or wherever, is really unfair. It's not racist. Islam is a religion, not a race. I for one am concerned about the other factors involved as well as the animal welfare side of it. Yeah, you're gonna get those BNP nutters who are racist jumping on the bandwagon purely cause it's bashing down Islam and Muslims, but they have no credible argument as their reasons are, for most of them, bullshit. They will moan about halal meat yet go for a beer and have a curry.

Again, I apologise if I offended you.

Interesting, thanks for extract! It would be interesting to get a wider Christian perspective on this. Yeah, I think the debate is worth having and certainly pondering the ethics of Halal/Kosher meat within a mass market does not make you a racist. However, I also feel that some people have heard the word 'Halal' and have reacted purely on it being an Islamic practice, utilised as further 'proof' we're becoming an Islamic state. If the word 'Halal' was solely replaced with 'Kosher' (which I believe is more stringent on not stunning the animal), then I honestly think the reaction would have been more muted.

Lol don't worry, what I said was quite reactionary and blunt so I apologise also.

 

[Noodlebear]

They use a recoverable stun (if one IS used) as opposed to a captive bolt stun.. Aside from all the other issues involved (bear with me) and just focusing on animal welfare for a sec, I think unless you're a hardcore vegan and have literally NO dealing with anything animal derived (milk, honey, silk clothes, leather shoes and car seats/sofas, angora, feathers, cashmere, god knows what else!) then really nobody can say they advovate animal welfare and care about the animals. I do think for a lot of people it's the other issues too, such as the tax and VAT exemptions that come with Halal accreditation through some charity loophole, profits indirectly going to Zatak which in turn funds terrorism and just the simple issue of the meat not being labelled as Halal. It's infiltrated the mainstream without anyone being told, and has taken away a simple basic right of freedom of choice purely to serve a minority (less than 5%). It's just pushed upon you, and for hardcore Christians it's actually against THEIR religion to eat meat which has been sacrificed/killed in the name of a false idol (in this case, Allah). If people are all in favour of halal meat which is a Sharia Law, then in turn you're also agreeing with the Sharia law for crime and offence and having limbs amputated. Where does it end?! Anyway, rant over x

I don't agree with the bit about meat eaters but I see you've sort of retracted that in a later comment so I won't go into that lol. I think the bit in bold was a daft thing to say though. Even people who practice the religion and actively support halal meat don't have to agree with every aspect of Sharia law. That's like saying that all Christians are homophobic or all Christians think that women on their periods are dirty etc. I don't think you could find a single religion that doesn't have some sort of out of date teaching that not everyone these days will necessarily agree with. Times change. You can be religious and still have your own opinion on things within the religion. You can also support aspects of it without being religious.

 

[Abigailly]

Just a few point I've remembered from the past few posts.

I don't agree that, as I'm not vegan, I don't have a right to care about animal welfare. I do, I eat well within my morals as often as I can.

Animals do often see the one before get slaughtered, certainly in the videos I've seen. And it's heart breaking to watch. They do feel. During the foot and mouth I had to help slaughter infected cattle in the sheep pens as we couldn't transport them. One cried, actually cried a gut wrenching moan when we slaughtered one. I hate the fact I had to do it, but I feel we were justified.

As for the Christian point of view. My family believe in one God. We believe in Him and Jesus Christ. I don't want to eat meat which has been slaughtered in the name of another religious leader, particularly one who is the leader of a religion who has many practices which I don't necessarily believe in.
Maye it's different if you don't have any beliefs. Kosher meat I choose not to eat as it is FAR too complicated for me to understand. Therefore I avoid it when I can. For example they'd rather eat battery eggs as it's not likely they'd of been viable?! That, to me is so backwards, but it's their beliefs so...