Gender segregation, inside the little boxes.

[Ozzieshunni]

hot tea, I think you're reading too much into her post. This is a debate not an interrogation.

 

[hot tea]

... Well, this is the topic I want to debate about. Can I say nothing without you trying to shut me down? This is a DEBATE!

 

[hot tea]

This is very impersonal and I am not judging her, I am asking for her angle! I have always loved reading her posts. Good god.

 

[lesleyann]

You like it, but why do you think you like it? Is it because by your nature as an animal? Or is it societal influence? What is you, what has been imprinted? Is it fair to imprint the same on your children, tell them what is right and wrong based solely on something preconcieved and doesn't actually exist on a natural level?

Well in my family there are only two types, those who both work or those who both claim benefits. So I have not been brought up in a home where the women stays home and looks after the children, My Oh was also brought up with both parents working none of his family have SAHM's/housewifes.

Yet its something we both want/feel works. I will never tell my children they have to do X/Y/Z however I can hope aslong as I never make them feel they must, just like I would never force my daughter or daughter in law in the future to have a homebirth just because I feel its much better.

If my daughter wants to work while her husband stays at home or they both work thats up to her aslong as she is happy ditto with my son..

I think the only thing to do is truly what you want and let your children experiance girls toys/boys toys etc and let them decide.. Kyle plays tea partys and runs around with girly head bands on sometimes in the house..

Oh thinks that nuts I dont care since we are in our own home. However kyle will be starting football training in september and "fight club" its a mixture of different combat sports to teach the children how to controll themselfs/defend them self etc any age from 3+ can join.

Edit: Although I dont care in the home I would not want him to do it in public and will continue to buy his pressents as cars/trucks/sports stuff and continue to buy Lexi's as girly things lol

 

[hot tea]

It is interesting to see how strongly we are influenced since birth, by media. How contained we truly are. Even as mothers there is little we can do against it. We can fight it on a more shallow level, but ultimately we are born into a world where princess is for girls and trucks are for boys. It is everywhere. I bought my son a pink sleeper the other day because I loved how it looked - but the moment of hesitation was there. It shouldn't be, in my opinion.

For my family dynamic, a more outwordly traditional role system works best as well. I am a stay at home mother with two children. But I am not the house keeper, I do not like cooking nor am I good at it. I stay home to raise my children and give them ideas, to provoke thoughts of their own that hopefully encourage them to ste outside the assigned gender roles that will be blasted at them from every side. That is one of the very goals, anyways.

 

[lesleyann]

See both me and Oh love cooking so mostly that depends on whats going on in the house although I do enjoy to have dinner ready for when he gets in/not long after his in. He will also help with the general upkeep of the house if/when needed like those days when both kids are just screaming for me all day and I can get nothing done.

I guess im torn in a sence, I want kyle to be able to look after himself when he moves out like know how to cook, how to do the washing, do the washing up etc but I still want him to do all the male things.

Ive let my friend put nail varnish on one of kyles nails before because his was intrested by it and it was pale enough that Oh would not notice. Oh is very rough and tumble with him wants him to play football properly be able to fight if needed and to never let anyone get the better of him. Where as Lexi is to be brought up in more of a "princess" way, no football clubs, no "flight club" etc

Oh has already stated the rules for dating/bringing home the other gender..

Kyle;

Will be aloud girls round and be aloud them alone in his room

Lexi;

Will only be aloud boys round in the living room and if she takes a boy up to her room the door will be coming off!! Shes also to not date someone who does not have a job.. How he will poilce that I wont know since by the time its working age he cannot say anything lol

 

[caz81]

I have to say hot tea I have found it interesting to read your posts as its clearly something you feel strongly about but something that I feel in many ways is a good thing.

I think that men and women are different and do have different roles to play in society and within a family. I am the homemaker in our family and my husband is the breadwinner. My husband does not know how to cook, how to work a washing machine (his mum did these things before we were married) and I would not expect him to do those things, equally he understands his job is to earn the money and drive when we go out as a family. I believe that this is the way it should be. I think that families work well when the roles are defined and it can become messy when they are not. I think society pressures women into thinking that being a homemaker is not an important role and so then we feel pressured into being something 'more', men can feel pressured that they dont do enough to help round the house- everyone ends up being pressured into feeling discontent when maybe they never would have before.

Our roles and the way we work our family is, in as much as we can, governed by our religion, we are Christians. In the Bible it says "encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored." Titus 2:4-5 so I try to take on the role of a homemaker and look after my husband. I hope that my children (I have a boy and a girl) will grow up to respect their roles as men and women in the way we do.

 

[hot tea]

That's an incredibly interesting way of looking at it. I like that. I find there is a lot of disrespect for both men and for women, in different ways. I find it interesting (and positive) that within the gender difference you impose (and those like minded as you) there is a deep level of respect. I think that is lovely. However, I feel that there is little room wih others with different and less accepted dymanics.

 

[hot tea]

My ultimate thought is that there is no difference between men and women, though. Not at all but by genitals etc. and if there are, we had absolutely no way of knowin what they are by nature, because we haven't lived without some form of gender segregation... Ever. All very hypothetical.

 

[emyandpotato]

Not read through the rest of this due to chronic case of laziness but here's my thoughts on it. I think there are differences between men and women in general terms and I think that the differences are animalistic and part of our genetics, for want of a better way of putting it. Basically, I think that perhaps men are/were more naturally aggressive and things like that, whereas women were perhaps naturally more nurturing. I'm not sure how far this goes as I'm not a natural historian, but you do, however, see replicated images of early humans where the women also hunted. There have been studies to show that there are differences between genders, just as there are small differences between the vast majority of cultural and genetic groups. Four year old boys, for example, have been proven to have a surge of testosterone for a few years and are therefore generally more boisterous than girls of their age. Such differences can be found through all age groups and if we must generalise, as we often do, then many differences will be found.

I do, however, think that it is wrong to generalise based on gender to the point of segregation. It is ridiculous in this day and age to assume that most influential factor of a child's personality is his or her gender, disregarding, or certainly belittling, all other contributing factors. We all throw around the phrase "everyone should be treated as an individual", but often, in the case of our children, we don't see it that way. People often say that want a boy or a girl when pregnant, for example. What if they had two boys, and one was very stereotypically girly and the other typically boyish? Surely that would satisfy the parents' ideals? It's never seen that way though, stereotyping begins in the womb. I'm not explaining myself very well, sorry, I'm tired! I think too much importance is put on gender. In a world where cross-dressing (why the hell is it even called that?!), sex changes and open sexuality are the norm, why are the so many questions concerning the reproductive organs someone was born with? It seems ridiculous and completely irrelevant. In that way, I don't exactly believe in gender. I don't really believe in sexuality either, but that's a different matter!

As far as how I'll treat my son, yes, I do sort of hope he has an obsession with dinosaurs and trains, but I would also be delighted if he enjoyed playing with a tea set or with my old doll house. Now that he's a baby I do enjoy dressing him in boyish clothes, but to be honest I'm not a fan of girly clothes and I'd have trouble dressing a girl from the girl's section in shops. When he's older, however, if he wants to wear a skirt and it's weather appropriate then I'll let him. If he chooses to wear glitter and a fairy costume and it's practical then that's fine. My OH is different, but I think that as LO grows up he'll allow him to do whatever makes him happy. I can honestly say that as long as my LO is happy and not endangering himself then he can be gay/transgender/dress in 'girl's' clothes as much as he likes.

 

[Maman]

i think to an extend boys are different to girls and men different to women, we are wired differently in the brain.

However i dont get the long hair, pink and ballet being for girls thing. i would hope both my sons could choose for themselves what they like, i hope theyre hands on when they become dads and im going to teach them to be self sufficient when it comes to housework, laundry etc.

my husband bless him as much as he tries with things like housework hes just not capable of doing mroe than one thing at once, he cant work the washing machine and just little things he cant do, that are like second nature to me. i cant do some of the 'man' stuff he does so we balance out and im happy with that, however i hope my sons are better than us through how we parent them.

 

[marley2580]

I think that you have to accept that there are biological differences between boys and girls, but there are a lot of differences that I think are created by parents and society. For example, I grew up with two brothers and a sister, my mum expected certain behaviour from us both in public and at home - when I take my girls to soft play I am simply shocked at the behaviour that many boys get away with. There seems to be a 'boys will be boys' attitude among many people, but my brothers (both of whom have grown up to be 'manly') would never have behaved that way, and if they did they would have expected to get into trouble for it.

 

[Yammas]

Yes I think that biologically there is a differentce although there is nothing in life stopping women doing jobs that traditionally a man would do and vice cersa. I have always been a tomboy and although I have embraced my feminine side now I will always be more 'boyish' in my ways but I've always been that way, mainly because my mother was if im honest.

I do think the pink and blue thing is stupid though considering it oringally started the other way around and i'm not a fan of pink so if im blessed to have a daughter they will be dressed in a variety of colours same as my son would. I'd also like to encourage both sexes to do housework more out of practicallity though Id hate to still be doing my sons laundery when hes 23 because he doesnt know how to work a washing machine like my OH and definatly dont want them to think its 'womens work'.

Its funny how depsite how liberal society is we still hold on to things like stereotypes.

 

[WantingABubba]

I love your posts, Hot Tea.

 

[JASMAK]

I would never put my son in pink, unless he asked for it. To me, that is making him what he is not. He is a boy. I can understand letting him be who he wants to be, but to me, making a boy look like a girl is also making him someone he isnt and migh be confusing, since, like it or not, we live in this society. I also know, that there is alot more than genital differences. Hormones are different in each sex, as we know and having, myself, a son, and two daughters, there is many differences that I have not encouraged in anyway. I love being a wman, and I embrace it. I will teach my daughters to do the same. And if they wan the traditional role of raising children at home, I will encorage it just as much as I would encourage my son. That is beng equal nmy eyes. Men and women are NOT equal though. Women mus carry babies, and breastfeed if theychoose. That has a ripple effect in society, and with their careers. There are certain things that just cant be changed. The colour of a shirt or length of hair is nothing about equality or gender...its more a statement, I suppose, nothing else.

 

[JASMAK]

Sorry for the mistakes...on my mobile

 

[Ozzieshunni]

I had a ex that wore a pink striped shirt once. He looked hot

 

[buddyIV]

Not read through the rest of this due to chronic case of laziness but here's my thoughts on it. I think there are differences between men and women in general terms and I think that the differences are animalistic and part of our genetics, for want of a better way of putting it. Basically, I think that perhaps men are/were more naturally aggressive and things like that, whereas women were perhaps naturally more nurturing. I'm not sure how far this goes as I'm not a natural historian, but you do, however, see replicated images of early humans where the women also hunted. There have been studies to show that there are differences between genders, just as there are small differences between the vast majority of cultural and genetic groups. Four year old boys, for example, have been proven to have a surge of testosterone for a few years and are therefore generally more boisterous than girls of their age. Such differences can be found through all age groups and if we must generalise, as we often do, then many differences will be found.

I do, however, think that it is wrong to generalise based on gender to the point of segregation. It is ridiculous in this day and age to assume that most influential factor of a child's personality is his or her gender, disregarding, or certainly belittling, all other contributing factors. We all throw around the phrase "everyone should be treated as an individual", but often, in the case of our children, we don't see it that way. People often say that want a boy or a girl when pregnant, for example. What if they had two boys, and one was very stereotypically girly and the other typically boyish? Surely that would satisfy the parents' ideals? It's never seen that way though, stereotyping begins in the womb. I'm not explaining myself very well, sorry, I'm tired! I think too much importance is put on gender. In a world where cross-dressing (why the hell is it even called that?!), sex changes and open sexuality are the norm, why are the so many questions concerning the reproductive organs someone was born with? It seems ridiculous and completely irrelevant. In that way, I don't exactly believe in gender. I don't really believe in sexuality either, but that's a different matter!

As far as how I'll treat my son, yes, I do sort of hope he has an obsession with dinosaurs and trains, but I would also be delighted if he enjoyed playing with a tea set or with my old doll house. Now that he's a baby I do enjoy dressing him in boyish clothes, but to be honest I'm not a fan of girly clothes and I'd have trouble dressing a girl from the girl's section in shops. When he's older, however, if he wants to wear a skirt and it's weather appropriate then I'll let him. If he chooses to wear glitter and a fairy costume and it's practical then that's fine. My OH is different, but I think that as LO grows up he'll allow him to do whatever makes him happy. I can honestly say that as long as my LO is happy and not endangering himself then he can be gay/transgender/dress in 'girl's' clothes as much as he likes.

Your answer is really interesting! The section I've highlighted is very insightful; the notion of "gender" only developed in the 60's as a direct result of a psychologist (Robert Stoller, 1968) who worked with transexuals. In introducing the concept of gender in addition to sex he was able to explain why someone's body didn't match with their internal identity. Feminists appropriated the word to represent the difference between who we are, and how we are treated (the classic nature/nurture). Essentially, gender is to do with society, culture, expectations and attitudes; sex is to do with genitals and hormones. However, that's not to say that the two things are entirely distinct: sex can determine gender, but gender isn't biologically PRE-determined.

Our hormones have a massive impact on our disposition and personality, but we are not at the mercy of them (unless your completely opposed to the idea of free will!). Testosterone does tend to imply a higher propensity towards aggressive behaviour, but that doesn't mean that we cant encourage boys to manage that aggression, and to act respectfully towards others by not harming them.

I agree that men and women have biological differences, but I do not think that that directly entails that we are pre-determined for certain roles, for certain traits, interests and preferences. To me the notion of gender is flexible, and has more to do with respecting the differences between individuals: seeing the value in each of them, and never believing one sex or gender to be fundamentally inferior.

For all this though, and without any particular encouragement from us, our son absolutely loves all things traditionally "boyish". The thing is though - and this is the important bit for me - he's done this all of us own accord, and not because we've directed him towards those things simply because he is a boy.

 

[Menelly]

San Mateo County. Loved every minute of it!

I used to live in San Bruno and Pacifica.

 

[deafgal]

I'll let them pick whatever interests them. I won't forbid it (clothes, toys, etc.) because it is too girly or manly. But in the meanwhile, I will dress them according to their sex (and society- although I don't care for pink) There is nothing wrong with appreciating and accepting what you were born with and it help you emotionally prepare when your body start changing. The last thing I want is for a girl to be ashamed of her period when it is natural and normal.

BUT if she feel differently despite how I raised her (lesbian or thinks she is a boy trapped in a girl body) I accept that too.