Giving gay people the right to marry in church

[deafgal]

The church does not own marriage so if same sex couples want to marry then it is fine by me. The problem they may find is getting a vicar to do it for them.

The church has specific beliefs about marriage, however, and therefore it is controversial to expect a church to alter or toss aside its beliefs to marry two people it doesn't believe should be married.

Your argument could suggest that I, a non-Mormon, could get married in the Mormon temple because they don't "own marriage" and therefore cannot deny me to get married in their sacred church reserved for Mormons only.

You couldnt get married in a mormon temple, you have to follow certain rules etc to do that, so not even all members are able to. In the UK that practice is illegal, so for mormons in the UK we get married in a church (til death do us part) which is a public servive, then travel to a temple to get married "again" but this marriage we believe is for eternity.

That's interesting how that works in the UK. In the US, Mormons get married in Mormon temples and Protestants get married in Protestant churches (or another Christian-based church), etc. By the way, I was never suggesting that I would ever try to get married in a Mormon temple, only making a point of how it is fair for churches to discriminate who they marry based on their beliefs!!

the church I grew up would strongly advised not go marry someone who have a different religious beliefs , and even to the point to refuse to allow them to marry in their church because of the bible verse 2 Cor. 6:14

 

[andella95]

I know that you think it makes sense, but I dont agree with it. Discrimination is judging, and in the bible, it says not to judge. This isnt Gods will. This is judging by sinful humans.

"Do not judge and criticize and condemn others, so that you may not be judged and criticized and condemned yourselves. For just as you judge and criticize and condemn others, you will be judged and criticized and condemned, and in accordance with the measure you deal out to others, it will be dealt out again to you. "--Matthew 7:1-2

I will let God decide. I believe God made us perfect, and I will not judge what He has made. Gay is what he made...for what reason...I dont know. But I will accept it and be thankful for what He has given.

God did not make us perfect. The Bible clearly states that no one is perfect. That is the reason that Jesus died on the cross. We are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God....

Finish the passage you quoted: "Why do you stare from without at the very small particle that is in your brother's eye but do not become aware of and consider the beam of timber that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, Let me get the tiny particle out of your eye, when there is the beam of timber in your own eye? You hypocrite, first get the beam of timber out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the tiny particle out of your brother's eye."

The Bible does not say "Do Not Discriminate." We are supposed to focus on ourselves and our own actions instead of running around pointing out what everyone else is doing wrong.

The Bible tells us to test all things and hold fast to that which is good...it doesn't say to approve of all choices others make or the lifestyle they live. "Judging" an action or behavior isn't the same as judging a person, and I believe God will be the ultimate judge.

This has been mentioned already, but I think it's a very, very fitting analogy. I am not LDS, and would not expect to be able to walk up to a Mormon temple and demand to be let in and to be married. I believe the LDS Church has every right to say who they will and will not marry. All churches should have this right.

You can believe however you wish, but it's not right to force your beliefs onto a Church and force them to go against their own doctrine and beliefs.

 

[ShanandBoc]

God did make us perfect in the beginning / originally. We had free will but we were physically perfect

 

[ShanandBoc]

What the bible says about homosexuality is not an interpretation. Its is very straight forward and clear on this matter. I really dont know how anyone can argue otherwise. They may not agree with it, but its clearly condems it.

If you / or your religion, claim to follow the bible and be christian, then you have agree with what is says. It makes it clear it is a choice, a lifestyle, not how God 'made' us and that those who practice it are sinning against God.

I would not vote for or against gay marriage personally, as i dont vote full stop. Jesus never got involved with the politics of his time and remained neutral, as should Christians today.

But if a church claims to be achristian, bible believing church then allowing homosexual marriage is going against the very word they claim to follow. They are in effect rewriting and undermining Gods word and authority and everything they supposedly stand for.

 

[alexstephens]

The church does not own marriage so if same sex couples want to marry then it is fine by me. The problem they may find is getting a vicar to do it for them.

The church has specific beliefs about marriage, however, and therefore it is controversial to expect a church to alter or toss aside its beliefs to marry two people it doesn't believe should be married.

Your argument could suggest that I, a non-Mormon, could get married in the Mormon temple because they don't "own marriage" and therefore cannot deny me to get married in their sacred church reserved for Mormons only.

yep that's fair, then they should get married but not in a church. Why would they want to marry in a church anyway when the followers can show such dislike for another human just based on their chemical makeup. Surely the church should be teaching tolerance for the fellow man no matter what their sexual preference.

 

[alaskagrown]

The church does not own marriage so if same sex couples want to marry then it is fine by me. The problem they may find is getting a vicar to do it for them.

The church has specific beliefs about marriage, however, and therefore it is controversial to expect a church to alter or toss aside its beliefs to marry two people it doesn't believe should be married.

Your argument could suggest that I, a non-Mormon, could get married in the Mormon temple because they don't "own marriage" and therefore cannot deny me to get married in their sacred church reserved for Mormons only.

yep that's fair, then they should get married but not in a church. Why would they want to marry in a church anyway when the followers can show such dislike for another human just based on their chemical makeup. Surely the church should be teaching tolerance for the fellow man no matter what their sexual preference.

I'm sure many Christians tolerate homosexuals, but for the church to encourage it by marrying two people of the same sex under their name and belief system is a whole different story.

 

[JASMAK]

God did make us perfect in the beginning / originally. We had free will but we were physically perfect

exactly, and people are BORN gay. They don't 'choose' it.

I guess we will all have to choose to disagree on this one. I don't believe churches have the right to discriminate. My opinion. I still love the Catholic faith and love the church, but there is a number of things I do not agree with...and one of them is their view on homosexuality. God gave me a brain to use it, and I am a smart woman who can say, "hey, this is disgusting and I am not going along with it just because a 'church' tells me to".

 

[ShanandBoc]

But its not the church who says its wrong. Its God. Shouldnt his opinion and standards be the most important? Just because we were created perfect, once Adam and Eve sinned that imperfection was passed down....doesnt mean all desires and sins we commit are the way God made us. I dont quite get you on that one. I guess i just find it hard how anyone who believes the bible is Gods word can just undermine what it says on this matter. Agree to disagree ....God bless

 

[Andypanda6570]

But its not the church who says its wrong. Its God. Shouldnt his opinion and standards be the most important? Just because we were created perfect, once Adam and Eve sinned that imperfection was passed down....doesnt mean all desires and sins we commit are the way God made us. I dont quite get you on that one. I guess i just find it hard how anyone who believes the bible is Gods word can just undermine what it says on this matter. Agree to disagree ....God bless

I think God has changed with the times, ( LOL) he no longer believes in this silly discrimination, I am catholic and I believe God loves us all and accepts us all. My God doesn't punish people for their choices . I am a sinner also, I believe in birth control I am fine with gay people and so on, I don't believe i am going to hell. I pray every night and I believe in God, I don't believe God sends anyone to hell for being a good person with different choices, I just don't believe it.

 

[ShanandBoc]

I think God has changed with the times, ( LOL) he no longer believes in this silly discrimination

God hasnt changed, its humans who have... as Satan wields more and more influence over this earth. The bible clearly says that 'the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one' (1 John 5:19) and that 'he has come down to the earth with great anger knowing he has a short period of time' (Rev 12:12)... so its his standards that the majority now live by, not Gods...But not for much longer thankfully!

I am catholic and I believe God loves us all and accepts us all.

(Hebrews 10:26) 'For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left' - so no, God doesnt accept all no matter what, and is clear about what conduct will not inherit you Gods kingdom.

Yes God loves us all and 'does not desire for any to be destroyed but desires all the attain to repentance' ( 2 Peter 3:9) but the bible says that in the end the majority wont. Not all lifestyles are acceptable to him. He has set out the moral standards for us to abide by for our own benefit.

Jesus didn’t encourage his followers to accept any and all lifestyles. Rather, he taught that the way to salvation is open to “everyone exercising faith in him.” (John 3:16) Exercising faith in Jesus includes conforming to God’s moral code, which forbids certain types of conduct—including homosexuality.—Romans 1:26, 27.

My God doesn't punish people for their choices

.

So you agree its a choice?

I am a sinner also, I believe in birth control I am fine with gay people and so on, I don't believe i am going to hell. I pray every night and I believe in God, I don't believe God sends anyone to hell for being a good person with different choices, I just don't believe it.

As a catholic you would know that the bible does say that a huge moral decline would be one of the signs of the last days of this system.

And God doesnt torture anyone forever in a fiery hell, he condemned the Israelites for sacrificing their children to false Gods and said it was something detestable to him! Hades and Sheol are translated into the english word hell but simply mean the grave. 'the wages sin pays is death (Romans 6:23). The fires of hell are taught in the bible as symbolic, a symbol of eternal destruction and cutting off from God, as it says even 'death will be thrown into the lake of fire' eventually (Rev 20:14) - and obviously death cant be literally burned. So it symbolizes complete destruction.... but thats another discussion.

Have a nice evening I might bow out here and leave you to your discussion!!

 

[Andypanda6570]

I think God has changed with the times, ( LOL) he no longer believes in this silly discrimination

God hasnt changed, its humans who have... as Satan wields more and more influence over this earth. The bible clearly says that 'the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one' (1 John 5:19) and that 'he has come down to the earth with great anger knowing he has a short period of time' (Rev 12:12)... so its his standards that the majority now live by, not Gods...But not for much longer thankfully!

I am catholic and I believe God loves us all and accepts us all.

(Hebrews 10:26) 'For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left' - so no, God doesnt accept all no matter what, and is clear about what conduct will not inherit you Gods kingdom.

Yes God loves us all and 'does not desire for any to be destroyed but desires all the attain to repentance' ( 2 Peter 3:9) but the bible says that in the end the majority wont. Not all lifestyles are acceptable to him. He has set out the moral standards for us to abide by for our own benefit.

Jesus didn’t encourage his followers to accept any and all lifestyles. Rather, he taught that the way to salvation is open to “everyone exercising faith in him.” (John 3:16) Exercising faith in Jesus includes conforming to God’s moral code, which forbids certain types of conduct—including homosexuality.—Romans 1:26, 27.

My God doesn't punish people for their choices

.

So you agree its a choice?

I am a sinner also, I believe in birth control I am fine with gay people and so on, I don't believe i am going to hell. I pray every night and I believe in God, I don't believe God sends anyone to hell for being a good person with different choices, I just don't believe it.

As a catholic you would know that the bible does say that a huge moral decline would be one of the signs of the last days of this system.

And God doesnt torture anyone forever in a fiery hell, he condemned the Israelites for sacrificing their children to false Gods and said it was something detestable to him! Hades and Sheol are translated into the english word hell but simply mean the grave. 'the wages sin pays is death (Romans 6:23). The fires of hell are taught in the bible as symbolic, a symbol of eternal destruction and cutting off from God, as it says even 'death will be thrown into the lake of fire' eventually (Rev 20:14) - and obviously death cant be literally burned. So it symbolizes complete destruction.... but thats another discussion.

Have a nice evening I might bow out here and leave you to your discussion!!

Your entitled to your opinion Just that i don't share it.. Please don't bow out, it is I who will bow out..Have a nice day..

 

[angelandbump]

I am a practising catholic and i have nothing against gay people... infact, my good friend robbie is gay and in a relation. To me marriage should only be between a man and a women. I also believe that only men should be priests.

I don't know if i feel this way due to the way i was brought up or what... but thats me.

 

[Natsku]

But we know that homosexuality isn't a choice. God made people, gay or straight, and if he chose to make people gay and condemn them for what he made them, then he isn't a God worth worshipping.

 

[caz81]

But we know that homosexuality isn't a choice. God made people, gay or straight, and if he chose to make people gay and condemn them for what he made them, then he isn't a God worth worshipping.

But are people born homosexual? Is it things that happen in their life that shape them or is it in their DNA?- That is a whole other debate and not one that I am trying to start but my point is that not everyone would agree it is in DNA, that God created them that way.

Secondly, even if you believe that someone is created homosexual they still have the free choice as to whether or not to be a 'practicing homosexual'.

But, the key question was whether homosexual marriage should be allowed and whether or not you belive God created some people homosexuals it should be clear from the Bible that God's design for living and marriage is a heterosexual one. Woman was created for man.

 

[Natsku]

Medical science generally agrees that sexual orientation is caused by a mixture of genetic, hormonal and environmental causes so really its a bit of both.

Again, if God made people homosexual and then expected them to be without the love of a partner for their whole lives then he is not a God worth worshipping. That is the work of a cruel God, not a loving God.

The bible says a lot of things that people don't follow so why this one thing is more important than the others?

 

[caz81]

Medical science generally agrees that sexual orientation is caused by a mixture of genetic, hormonal and environmental causes so really its a bit of both.

Again, if God made people homosexual and then expected them to be without the love of a partner for their whole lives then he is not a God worth worshipping. That is the work of a cruel God, not a loving God.

The bible says a lot of things that people don't follow so why this one thing is more important than the others?

Well, some would disagree with science, but lets not get into that debate as its not something that I know anything about really, I just wanted to point out that not all would agree with that.

There are many sexual desires that God does not agree with, not just homosexuality, for example he does not agree with leaving your husband/wife and being with someone new so if someone is in an unhappy marriage and does not feel they can leave does that make God cruel? Could someone have a happy relationship with someone with out the sexual side? Is it so important to have to have sex? Could a man and woman or two men or two women not live happily and have a close relationship without having sex? God has told us that one of the main purposes of sex is for having children so as homosexual sex can not produce children then I would guess that is one reason why God is not approving.


I dont think that this is anymore important than other things to follow and that is the point that I have tried to make many many times on this thread. The reason this is being talked about is because this is the title of the thread. To me homosexuality is not bigger a sin than any other but I dont think it is right for homosexual marriage as it is not God's design for life.

 

[andella95]

Medical science generally agrees that sexual orientation is caused by a mixture of genetic, hormonal and environmental causes so really its a bit of both.

Again, if God made people homosexual and then expected them to be without the love of a partner for their whole lives then he is not a God worth worshipping. That is the work of a cruel God, not a loving God.

The bible says a lot of things that people don't follow so why this one thing is more important than the others?

So why would a gay person even want to be married in a Church where such a God is worshipped?

If you don't believe in that God in the first place, who are you to demand that a church that does believe in that God- a God you find offensive, should marry you?

 

[Natsku]

Medical science generally agrees that sexual orientation is caused by a mixture of genetic, hormonal and environmental causes so really its a bit of both.

Again, if God made people homosexual and then expected them to be without the love of a partner for their whole lives then he is not a God worth worshipping. That is the work of a cruel God, not a loving God.

The bible says a lot of things that people don't follow so why this one thing is more important than the others?

So why would a gay person even want to be married in a Church where such a God is worshipped?

If you don't believe in that God in the first place, who are you to demand that a church that does believe in that God- a God you find offensive, should marry you?

A gay Christian might want to be married in a Church I said earlier in the thread that I couldn't decide whether they should have the right or not, I think it would be best that they have the right if they can find a priest/vicar who will marry them - priests/vicars would have the right to refuse to marry a gay couple.

 

[Natsku]

Medical science generally agrees that sexual orientation is caused by a mixture of genetic, hormonal and environmental causes so really its a bit of both.

Again, if God made people homosexual and then expected them to be without the love of a partner for their whole lives then he is not a God worth worshipping. That is the work of a cruel God, not a loving God.

The bible says a lot of things that people don't follow so why this one thing is more important than the others?

Well, some would disagree with science, but lets not get into that debate as its not something that I know anything about really, I just wanted to point out that not all would agree with that.

There are many sexual desires that God does not agree with, not just homosexuality, for example he does not agree with leaving your husband/wife and being with someone new so if someone is in an unhappy marriage and does not feel they can leave does that make God cruel? Could someone have a happy relationship with someone with out the sexual side? Is it so important to have to have sex? Could a man and woman or two men or two women not live happily and have a close relationship without having sex? God has told us that one of the main purposes of sex is for having children so as homosexual sex can not produce children then I would guess that is one reason why God is not approving.


I dont think that this is anymore important than other things to follow and that is the point that I have tried to make many many times on this thread. The reason this is being talked about is because this is the title of the thread. To me homosexuality is not bigger a sin than any other but I dont think it is right for homosexual marriage as it is not God's design for life.

True some people would disagree with science but that just seems a bit silly to me.

I certainly think people should be able to leave an unhappy marriage without God condemning them to hell for it! I just had to leave an abusive relationship - if God thinks I'm wrong for leaving it then he's the one that can go to hell.

I think it can be unhealthy to resist our strong biological urges to have sex. I do believe that repressing sexuality can let it come out in unhealthy ways.

I know this thread is about homosexuality and not the other rules in the bible but it does bother me that Christians don't follow the rules about women not speaking in church and keeping their heads covered and not cutting their hair short, but insist that people follow the rules about homosexuality.

 

[caz81]

Medical science generally agrees that sexual orientation is caused by a mixture of genetic, hormonal and environmental causes so really its a bit of both.

Again, if God made people homosexual and then expected them to be without the love of a partner for their whole lives then he is not a God worth worshipping. That is the work of a cruel God, not a loving God.

The bible says a lot of things that people don't follow so why this one thing is more important than the others?

Well, some would disagree with science, but lets not get into that debate as its not something that I know anything about really, I just wanted to point out that not all would agree with that.

There are many sexual desires that God does not agree with, not just homosexuality, for example he does not agree with leaving your husband/wife and being with someone new so if someone is in an unhappy marriage and does not feel they can leave does that make God cruel? Could someone have a happy relationship with someone with out the sexual side? Is it so important to have to have sex? Could a man and woman or two men or two women not live happily and have a close relationship without having sex? God has told us that one of the main purposes of sex is for having children so as homosexual sex can not produce children then I would guess that is one reason why God is not approving.


I dont think that this is anymore important than other things to follow and that is the point that I have tried to make many many times on this thread. The reason this is being talked about is because this is the title of the thread. To me homosexuality is not bigger a sin than any other but I dont think it is right for homosexual marriage as it is not God's design for life.

True some people would disagree with science but that just seems a bit silly to me.

I certainly think people should be able to leave an unhappy marriage without God condemning them to hell for it! I just had to leave an abusive relationship - if God thinks I'm wrong for leaving it then he's the one that can go to hell.

I think it can be unhealthy to resist our strong biological urges to have sex. I do believe that repressing sexuality can let it come out in unhealthy ways.

I know this thread is about homosexuality and not the other rules in the bible but it does bother me that Christians don't follow the rules about women not speaking in church and keeping their heads covered and not cutting their hair short, but insist that people follow the rules about homosexuality.

The point I was trying to make was that with the unhappy marriage rather than leaving if both people worked to make the relationship right then it would be what God wanted. I was not talking about abusive relationships, I dont think that I made my point very clear there. What I was trying to say was that these days people decide they have 'fallen out of love' and divorce and this is wrong, they should work at their marriage.

God encourages us to respond to our sexual urges, but within the confines of our marriage
"Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won't be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (1 Corinthians 7:5)

I think that a lot of the random rules that people like to quote in this are Old Testament rules, as Christians our greater focus is on the New Testament and following those rules. I try hard to follow the Bible as a guide for how to live my life. I attend Church so that I can learn more. Am a perfect? Certainly not, do I get it right all the time? no! I often struggle with the command to obey my husband as I like to be in control lol! But im starting to get better at it! I dont think at all that Christian's hold homosexuality as a greater sin, I suppose the issue with it maybe is about not repenting and choosing to continue to commit that sin? I dont know because I dont view it as a greater sin than adultery for example. I believe that we are all sinners but through repentance of our sins and the sacrifice of Jesus we can be redeemed in Gods eyes.