Illegal drugs - worse than legal ones?

[Eve]

In your first post on the subject you said NO playdates with the child at all... it's different when you have the child at your home, a little less judgemental to say the least. Your prime example of drug hurting could be just you. Like I said, unless you know the father you shouldn't judge him on one thing he does. I don't smoke it , but when I was a teen I had easy access to it... HIGH SCHOOL lol. It's everywhere. I bet at least one of the teachers at your child's school smokes it...

Sure, it's everywhere...but, I can't blame the parents for not wanting them to play with him, and TBH, as much as I don't like to admit it, I don't really want Jasper playing with this boy because of it...like I mean, at all. But, I am not going to do that...I am just saying how I feel. I am being honest here. I know you may think that is judgemental (isn't that you judging me too?) but that is how I feel. Perhaps this will be something for you to take away though...that not everyone is cool with it, kwim? Also, your friend (I think it was you who said you had a friend who was a police officer who smoked pot)...I would be VERY careful what you say about this person. They could lose their job for that, kwim? I just wouldn't spread it around, espesially on the internet.

Hence why I didn't use names kwim? It was an example... and that is that.
I know not everyone is cool about it, I just do not like someone passing judgement on a great man because of occasional use. Like I said before, my OH is one of the best around and him smoking a joint makes him no less of a man that he is.
I bet there are some ppl you work with/for who smoke it as well. It's everywhere and being scared of it and banning it etc... won't make it go away.
I also just don't think it's fair for a child to suffer because of something their parents/parent does.

 

[JASMAK]

In your first post on the subject you said NO playdates with the child at all... it's different when you have the child at your home, a little less judgemental to say the least. Your prime example of drug hurting could be just you. Like I said, unless you know the father you shouldn't judge him on one thing he does. I don't smoke it , but when I was a teen I had easy access to it... HIGH SCHOOL lol. It's everywhere. I bet at least one of the teachers at your child's school smokes it...

Sure, it's everywhere...but, I can't blame the parents for not wanting them to play with him, and TBH, as much as I don't like to admit it, I don't really want Jasper playing with this boy because of it...like I mean, at all. But, I am not going to do that...I am just saying how I feel. I am being honest here. I know you may think that is judgemental (isn't that you judging me too?) but that is how I feel. Perhaps this will be something for you to take away though...that not everyone is cool with it, kwim? Also, your friend (I think it was you who said you had a friend who was a police officer who smoked pot)...I would be VERY careful what you say about this person. They could lose their job for that, kwim? I just wouldn't spread it around, espesially on the internet.

Hence why I didn't use names kwim? It was an example... and that is that.
I know not everyone is cool about it, I just do not like someone passing judgement on a great man because of occasional use. Like I said before, my OH is one of the best around and him smoking a joint makes him no less of a man that he is.
I bet there are some ppl you work with/for who smoke it as well. It's everywhere and being scared of it and banning it etc... won't make it go away.
I also just don't think it's fair for a child to suffer because of something their parents/parent does.

I'm afraid that it is such a big deal to some people, that smoking an occasional joint is enough to turn them off. I tend to not hang out or talk to anyone who breaks the law. If I find out someone is doing something criminal, I don't go any further...that is that. I am sure you think he is wonderful, I just don't befriend people like that. And, no, I don't know anyone at my work that does illegal activities. It is very frowned upon...maybe where you are? I am not sure. Again, I would be careful if you know of someone, they might not want the being passed around that the RCMP where you are smoke pot. lol

 

[Eve]

I don't get your "be careful" stuff. I'm not using any names, places, departments etc... all I said is I know of a cop who smokes it... no big deal I also personally know a few who do not, and are great cops Just drop it okay? BTW it's not illegal to smoke it... just posess a larger amount for selling etc...

Good for you!

You say you are sure I think he is wonderful... and well so does anyone who has ever met him so that says something right there. I know he wouldn't be so quick to pass judgement on someone for their personal choices which do not hurt anyone. Also people like that? Like what? Good hearted, hard working, family oriented, helpful, loving, respectful, selfless, nuturing, honest, reliable, super daddy and husband and many more great things? Such a shame...

done! xx I'm going to go to bed now, where my OH comes with me every night to rub my back and snuggle/tuck me in before he goes back out in the living room to watch tv/movie. Something he has done for years, he is just so loving and giving like that. I'm one lucky girl, there aren't too many like him left in the world I know he is a great man, I'm not going to defend him any longer, have a good night...

 

[kiwimama]

Well my partners doctor told him that he would much more recommend he smokes pot than cigarettes. Take a look at every single cop program out there, the people getting arrested for fighting and disorderly behaviour have all been drinking. You will never see a stoned person on these types of programs because pot makes you chill out and relax, generally you just want to sit and chat with friends whereas alcohol seems to make some people incredibly aggressive and violent. Many years ago when they were considering making cannabis illegal, the government bodies where deciding whether it would be alcohol or cannabis that they would ban, and they decided on cannabis (they had a vote on it.) From that moment ads appeared everywhere with scare tactics about how smoking it will make you go crazy, murder people and that it will kill you. I sometimes wonder what the world would be like now if they had banned alcohol and pot was legal...

 

[PeanutBean]

I don't think alcohol could be banned, not in countries like ours. I'm a scientist and am all about the evidence however in the drug debate I believe it's much more complicated and that social implications are potentially greater than the actual medical effects. It's a complex debate for every drug. A little while ago there was a big furore here in the UK when a chief scientist in the committee that looks at drugs was sacked after ssying some controversial stuff publically because he felt the science was being undermined by politics. A string of others stepped down in his support and in my world there was a lot of outcry about it. But I disagreed. It isn't just a scientific issue.

I don't know how I feel about legalising or illegalising various drugs. Personally I don't smoke, I rarely drink and I don't take other drugs. I wouldn't miss them and I hate the effects of all of them. But in legalising there would be a lot of unpredictable effects on society that may or may not be worth the risk. And trying to make things newly illegal is very difficult.

Lol DH and I had such a massive debate about this last night!

 

[Dopeyjopey]

PB I completely see your point, but I agree with Prof Knutt that it is a scientific issue. At the moment social implications are, i believe, due to the illegality of drugs. If they were regulated they would be safer, prices would be uniform, dealers wouldn't have such a hold over people and people could be more educated as the subject wouldn't be so taboo.

There are many cultures where shamans use entheogens as a spiritual tool, it is done responsibly, the villagers can go along for the experience and all in all it's an enlightening, positive experience for them.

Sometimes governments want to outlaw anything harmful for 'our own good' but what about our ability to use our brains and think for ourselves?

I am not saying all drugs should be legal - far from it - i just think policies need to be seriously reviewed.

 

[PeanutBean]

No I think it's both and I think legalisation and the change in behaviour as a consequence isn't really predictable. Of course it being against the law has negative impacts too. Last night DH and I talked about heroin cafes. It seems to work in other places, but our underlying culture is different from other countries so it's not right to assume it would work in the sane way for us. I honestly don't know but I don't think it's an easy decision or one to be made lightly. I remember hearing about the War on Drugs started in the '60s primarily in the states I think. I guess the jury's still out on what would be the best way to deal with all drugs. But we come from the position we do and it's how things would change from now that would make a difference.

And on letting people think for themselves? A whole other issue! I'm all for it just as soon as everyone has opportunity and inclination enough to be properly informed and make an educated decision. On all issues, not just drugs!

 

[Dopeyjopey]

I agree, it would have an effect that would be impossible to predict. It would be interesting to find out what effect downgrading an illegal drug's class has on the number of people taking it, street price etc. Unfortunately i don't think it would be that easy to survey!

I think I was meant to live in the early 60s, i love the sound of how things were and fit with my morals much better than the present does

I must be a bit harsh but if we were left to think for ourselves natural selection would work the way it should. The way it's going at the moment, stronger (in all senses of the word) people are keeping the weaker people's heads above water and hindering the natural process. Don't get me wrong, i help people out a lot in RL because there's so much emotion attached. But when you look at the bigger picture it could have a detrimental effect long term.

 

[redpoppy]

I'm afraid that it is such a big deal to some people, that smoking an occasional joint is enough to turn them off. I tend to not hang out or talk to anyone who breaks the law. If I find out someone is doing something criminal, I don't go any further...that is that. I am sure you think he is wonderful, I just don't befriend people like that. And, no, I don't know anyone at my work that does illegal activities. It is very frowned upon...maybe where you are? I am not sure. Again, I would be careful if you know of someone, they might not want the being passed around that the RCMP where you are smoke pot. lol

Please read my post with a little thought and reply when you can. I am always disturbed by views such as yours (and they are common) and do not want to start an argument but REALLY HONESTLY want to UNDERSTAND and get what your point of view is and where it comes from and why you have it.

I understand people being against someone who commits crimes that are immoral in their personal view. But to say you do not associate with ANYONE who has ever done anything criminal is (and PLEASE seriously don't take this personally) a very conditioned mind which gets its morality from the law which I see as an extremely troubling thing.

Your morality should come from a set of principles that you define for yourself and redefine throughout life due to your experiences in my point of view. What is it that makes you give that responsibility over to anyone or anything? That is what I want to understand. At what point do you say "well I CHOOSE not to think for myself to figure out what is right and wrong based on my view of the world and instead I will hand over that huge responsibility to ______" Fill in the blank, in your case the law.

To say you never question the law means that depending on which society you live in or which society you were born into you could be complicit (and I use the word knowing it's criminal references) in a whole host of HIGHLY immoral things. To not question certain laws is horrific. In certain countries it is law to stone people to death for adultery. It has been law for black people to be treated as inferior to white people. If nobody questioned the law we would have sexism and racism which were not just institutionalised or subtle but lead to horrific and murderous acts. Also laws mean that cannabis is totally decriminalised (holland and potentially California after november) or used for medical purposes (all over the states and canada) or an offence than you can get the death penalty for in certain countries.

I could start going through some of the acts which have been made possible from thinking like that but after the sexism, racism, holocaust, and all sorts of TERRIBLE things which have happened legally in so many countries throughout history and still happen today I think it's just a case of reading a couple of history book to know. So my question which I would LOVE to have answered is that how to you get to a place where defining your morality on the law is considered a moral thing?

We are society and the law is OURS. We existed before the law and we MADE the laws to help society function. Some of those laws are and have throughout history been incorrect/immoral. So why would anyone in this day and age choose to give the law precedence over their own mind?

In terms of mind altering substances. To me the act of criminalising an individual for smoking pot in their own home or in any manner which does not interfere with anyone else is the immoral act. Stop locking people up for having a joint. It's immoral to do so. In that case it is not the drug which is ruining lives but the law as these people are not a danger to society or themselves.

 

[PeanutBean]

Hm, well I think in sincerity the biggest impact on natural selection is healthcare. I don't think we live in a fair enough society to allow people to fend for themselves and them have equal chances!

I dunno about the 60s, you might need to have been in the States too. My Mum reckons it was nothing like that over here! lol

 

[Dopeyjopey]

Redpoppy, i think you hit the nail on the head there - laws need to change with the times to work best for society. They are there to protect us, not catch people out for something that could be considered trivial.

PB, i know it would never work for everyone to fend for themselves - it's just that in my ideal world we would live nomadic lives, living off the land and not having to comform to suit society. Oh well, maybe in the next life

 

[redpoppy]

No I think it's both and I think legalisation and the change in behaviour as a consequence isn't really predictable. Of course it being against the law has negative impacts too. Last night DH and I talked about heroin cafes. It seems to work in other places, but our underlying culture is different from other countries so it's not right to assume it would work in the sane way for us. I honestly don't know but I don't think it's an easy decision or one to be made lightly. I remember hearing about the War on Drugs started in the '60s primarily in the states I think. I guess the jury's still out on what would be the best way to deal with all drugs. But we come from the position we do and it's how things would change from now that would make a difference.

And on letting people think for themselves? A whole other issue! I'm all for it just as soon as everyone has opportunity and inclination enough to be properly informed and make an educated decision. On all issues, not just drugs!

I suppose in reality I agree that legalisation could have very unpredictable results which is why I prefer downgrading cannabis to the lowest possible level. Even a class C will do so long as the definition of "personal use" includes growing your own small cannabis plant. People are not going to stop using cannabis because it is illegal but people may START using it and using it irresponsibly because they will not educate themselves if it is made legal.

But the current situation where it is possible to get a 5 year jail sentence for personal use, is just sooooooo very wrong and immoral in my and I believe any sane person who is willing to discuss the topic's mind.

I have a best friend and a brother who both work in mental health and their view of cannabis is VERY different to mine. They ONLY encounter people who are mentally unwell who have used cannabis. But like MANY mentally unwell people you CANNOT say if the pot made them mad or if they were more inclined to try pot being those on the edges of mainstream society. I am sure if you are inclined to be mentally unwell then SOMETIMES cannabis MAY make you worse BUT I have seen difficult and aggressive people become relaxed and caring people with regular cannabis use. I also know FAR too many people who do indulge (people are far more open about it to others who have or do) and it is just plain insanity that LEGALLY all these people should be rounded up and told to serve 3 months to 5 years or fined and have a criminal record. It just doesn't make any sense. The law should at least TRY and make sense.

 

[redpoppy]

Redpoppy, i think you hit the nail on the head there - laws need to change with the times to work best for society. They are there to protect us, not catch people out for something that could be considered trivial.

PB, i know it would never work for everyone to fend for themselves - it's just that in my ideal world we would live nomadic lives, living off the land and not having to comform to suit society. Oh well, maybe in the next life

I am useless at living off the land and am, for a hippy, too clean and too consumeristic (if that's a word) but this sounds lovely and we need to hang out.

I always say to my OH (and anyone who'll hear me) that I spend most of my life trying to collect my tribe.

 

[PeanutBean]

I totally agree that many laws around this and other issues are a bit bonkers, they should be looked at but I am not a user and don't have a strong enough opinion to feel qualified to know how they should be changed.

We have a friend who is a strong user of cannabis and he is the odd one out in all DH's old acquaintances who seems not to have any sort of deadening effect by his use. But, he is kind of nuts! He is like the manic in manic depression without the flipside. I reckon he's one of these over producing dopamine types that need to jump of cliffs and the likes in order to get a small kick. Maybe for people like him cannabis can have a positive effect. Everyone's different, and unpredictably so, which really is one of the main issues with all drug use, legal or otherwise.

If it was outright legalised it would be tricky to rationalise with the smoking ban. I can't bear that people are allowed to smoke by me in the street so if it were pot (and sometimes it is and I can certainly tell!) then I would be concerned about that too. I remember in my last pregnancy I was lying on the bed in the summer feeling like death with the windows open trying not to vomit everywhere when I got billows of bloody pot smoke coming in through my windows from a group of lads sat smoking it on my front wall. I was livid!

On the living form the land, it's alright for the green fingered but even then you'd have to try and claw the land back from the rich first!

 

[Dopeyjopey]

Redpoppy, i think you hit the nail on the head there - laws need to change with the times to work best for society. They are there to protect us, not catch people out for something that could be considered trivial.

PB, i know it would never work for everyone to fend for themselves - it's just that in my ideal world we would live nomadic lives, living off the land and not having to comform to suit society. Oh well, maybe in the next life

I am useless at living off the land and am, for a hippy, too clean and too consumeristic (if that's a word) but this sounds lovely and we need to hang out.

I always say to my OH (and anyone who'll hear me) that I spend most of my life trying to collect my tribe.

i'm collecting my tribe too! Like you, i know there are things i couldn't do so i seem to gravitate towards those that fill in my blanks iyswim? When modern society fails, between us, we'll thrive in our tribe and we'll all get high HAHA. (Tongue firmly in cheek for that last comment!)

 

[cherryglitter]

I haven't read through the whole thread but I shall reply with my response about LEGAL drugs.

I know people who do the legal drugs you can but in shops etc. It ruins just as many lives as the illegal. I can't stand them and I could be biased it has affected me personally. I don't do them but immediate family do. They can't afford the real stuff so they do the fake stuff.

It's so bad for you. People will lie just go get hold of it. I've seen people act like complete lunatics on the stuff. Im talking about the fake cocaine you can get hold of. I can't stand it and I think it should be banned. I'd imagine it to be a lot worse for you then the real stuff. I've also seen it make people very aggressive.

I can't stand it and the fact that my family think it's okay to do it because it's legal winds me up even more. It's ruining their bodies.

 

[Blue_bumpkin]

They should ALL be banned imo x

 

[JASMAK]

I'm afraid that it is such a big deal to some people, that smoking an occasional joint is enough to turn them off. I tend to not hang out or talk to anyone who breaks the law. If I find out someone is doing something criminal, I don't go any further...that is that. I am sure you think he is wonderful, I just don't befriend people like that. And, no, I don't know anyone at my work that does illegal activities. It is very frowned upon...maybe where you are? I am not sure. Again, I would be careful if you know of someone, they might not want the being passed around that the RCMP where you are smoke pot. lol

Please read my post with a little thought and reply when you can. I am always disturbed by views such as yours (and they are common) and do not want to start an argument but REALLY HONESTLY want to UNDERSTAND and get what your point of view is and where it comes from and why you have it.

I understand people being against someone who commits crimes that are immoral in their personal view. But to say you do not associate with ANYONE who has ever done anything criminal is (and PLEASE seriously don't take this personally) a very conditioned mind which gets its morality from the law which I see as an extremely troubling thing.

Your morality should come from a set of principles that you define for yourself and redefine throughout life due to your experiences in my point of view. What is it that makes you give that responsibility over to anyone or anything? That is what I want to understand. At what point do you say "well I CHOOSE not to think for myself to figure out what is right and wrong based on my view of the world and instead I will hand over that huge responsibility to ______" Fill in the blank, in your case the law.

To say you never question the law means that depending on which society you live in or which society you were born into you could be complicit (and I use the word knowing it's criminal references) in a whole host of HIGHLY immoral things. To not question certain laws is horrific. In certain countries it is law to stone people to death for adultery. It has been law for black people to be treated as inferior to white people. If nobody questioned the law we would have sexism and racism which were not just institutionalised or subtle but lead to horrific and murderous acts. Also laws mean that cannabis is totally decriminalised (holland and potentially California after november) or used for medical purposes (all over the states and canada) or an offence than you can get the death penalty for in certain countries.

I could start going through some of the acts which have been made possible from thinking like that but after the sexism, racism, holocaust, and all sorts of TERRIBLE things which have happened legally in so many countries throughout history and still happen today I think it's just a case of reading a couple of history book to know. So my question which I would LOVE to have answered is that how to you get to a place where defining your morality on the law is considered a moral thing?

We are society and the law is OURS. We existed before the law and we MADE the laws to help society function. Some of those laws are and have throughout history been incorrect/immoral. So why would anyone in this day and age choose to give the law precedence over their own mind?

In terms of mind altering substances. To me the act of criminalising an individual for smoking pot in their own home or in any manner which does not interfere with anyone else is the immoral act. Stop locking people up for having a joint. It's immoral to do so. In that case it is not the drug which is ruining lives but the law as these people are not a danger to society or themselves.

Well, I don't agree with people who believe they are above the law. We have laws in place to protect people, and to have order. Those who go around thinking it doesn't apply to them, or that they are the exception to the rule really irk me. Where do you draw the line? Is it ok for you to speed? Drink while driving? Smoke pot? If you disagree with a law, go about to try and make changes, but if you break the law, then I don't trust you as a person. I don't trust that you wouldn't break the law somewhere else. To me, that shows lack of morals in a person. This is my conclusion, and I can honestly say, that in 'real life' the only people I know who do drugs are losers. They are brainless, and destructive to themselves, and selfish. Maybe you have met 'better' drug users, but I have not. If someone smoked a joint in front of me...I would leave, and possibly phone the police. To me, smoking cigs, drinking to get plastered, and smoking pot are not qualities that I find attractive in anyone. I am not a teenager anymore. I am 35 years old, and to me, that seems very highschoolish (btw, I did not do drugs in highschool). Those are my morals. If someone had cancer and was terminal (as one of my friends is right now) and they needed pot, like it was PRESCRIBED, then I would be accepting, but not want to see it. It's not that I don't think for myself. There are laws that I don't agree with...like the new prostitution thing...that it is legal for a brothel...forget it...I don't agree with that. I think for myself. I have a brain that hasn't been contaminated by drugs and I don't wear rose coloured glasses either...I see it for what it is.

Not sure where I said I didn't question the law??? Can you show me where I said that? Perhaps I mis-spoke, or perhaps you misunderstood.

 

[Dopeyjopey]

They should ALL be banned imo x

Where would you draw the line? I've been thinking about this all day and it's annoying me that i can't find an answer! Haha. Caffeine is addictive and can be harmful but i don't think that could be banned. Alcohol and nicotine should. But there should be something for recreation, so where is the line then? Urgh. I'm doing my own head in.

 

[Blue_bumpkin]

They should ALL be banned imo x

Where would you draw the line? I've been thinking about this all day and it's annoying me that i can't find an answer! Haha. Caffeine is addictive and can be harmful but i don't think that could be banned. Alcohol and nicotine should. But there should be something for recreation, so where is the line then? Urgh. I'm doing my own head in.

Anything detrimental to someone health to the point that associated illnesses are draining the nhs then that is where the line should be drawn.

It honestly baffles me how they can justify still legalising cigarettes and alcohol.