Is it wrong for people who work with children to smoke?

[JASMAK]

Smoking is a HABIT and not necessary for life...its not oxygen, food or water...its a habit. Thats it. So, yes people can work 12 hours, people can and DO choose to not smoke while at work or around others. These peoe DO have control.

 

[elt1013]

I think we just got off the issue a little bit in talking about bacteria and viruses, and are aware that they are not in the same category as toxins. But for me, these are much bigger issues than a nurse or doctor smoking on their breaks.

You said it perfectly when you said the build up of these toxins OVER TIME. It is unlikey that someone having a couple smoke breaks while at work will have enough build up on them to be at toxic levels assuming they shower regularly, lol.

 

[elt1013]

Nothing I love more than a great mature discussion/debate with intelligent women, but I gotta call it quits when it starts getting rude. There is a way of stating your opinion without being insulting to others (and most of you have done that). Thank you ladies!

 

[Liesje]

For the record, I'm aware you can't build immunity to chemicals, I was talking more along the lines of adaptation.
In Canada all of our food is genetically modified and it's impossible to find unadulterated drinking water, so why fight tiny insignificant battles?

 

[Sarahkka]

For the record, I'm aware you can't build immunity to chemicals, I was talking more along the lines of adaptation.
In Canada all of our food is genetically modified and it's impossible to find unadulterated drinking water, so why fight tiny insignificant battles?

I think the perception of what is tiny and insignificant is different from person to person. I have a background in environmental science. I see plenty of choice in my ability to limit my toxin exposure from food, water, household products, etc. And I will continue to use my consumer dollar, my political voice, and my critical faculty to work towards more sustainable choices.
Something to think about from the angle of bioaccumulation: if most of these toxins are cumulative, and we are getting exposure from just about everything, then every little tiny seemingly insignificant battle may add up to "significant" far more quickly than we realize.
Conversely, when we make changes in chemical exposure levels, we can see dramatic amelioration. There are many examples, but an easy one to look at is the effect the spraying of the pesticide DDT had on peregrine falcon populations and how quickly they rebounded when we banned that chemical. So there is a lot of hope and a lot of reason to fight for a safer world.
I know what you mean about feeling like every little thing is a new hazard, but if we sift through the media hype, use good scientific critical faculty and just common sense, I think we can navigate a fairly sane path through all the hazards of life these days!
But I disagree with anyone suggesting that living with awareness, or supporting controls on toxins that are unnecessary and that we do have power to limit is somehow being paranoid or "big brother"-ish.

 

[Sarahkka]

I think we just got off the issue a little bit in talking about bacteria and viruses, and are aware that they are not in the same category as toxins. But for me, these are much bigger issues than a nurse or doctor smoking on their breaks.

You said it perfectly when you said the build up of these toxins OVER TIME. It is unlikey that someone having a couple smoke breaks while at work will have enough build up on them to be at toxic levels assuming they shower regularly, lol.

I know what you mean about choosing your battles. Am I going to go out and stage a protest over thirdhand smoke? Not likely. Do I support legislation to control exposure to it? Yup. I will save my big crazy burn-my-bra and chain-myself-to-a-tree energy for bigger issues. (Um, I promise that I have done neither of these things! )
That being said, as I just responded to Leisje, trace elements can add up. Very quickly, in fact. So to me, it makes a lot of sense to implement controls on things that are easy to change. To me, regulating exposure to thirdhand smoke is relatively easy. Particularly when you compare it to trying to deal with traffic pollution or the plastics industry. I see it as an "every drop in the bucket" sort of thing, rather than as too many insignificant things to be bothered with, I guess?

 

[holly2234]

I dont think its wrong. They are still people in their own right and have lives outside of work.

However, i dont like it and dont smoke either. But if a health professional etc comes near me that smells of smoke (never happened yet) then i would send them away if i was unhappy and find another one. We have the right to choose, so if you are not happy, make that choice.

I didnt like the midwife i had when Erin was born (not smoke related). She just had an attitude problem so i told the midwife in charge and got a different one.

And thats great in the UK with the NHS and all...but here if you have Insurance or Medicaid you can only go to certain doctors/hospitals/dentists etc

So we DONT always have a choice.

That would have to be a choice you make when deciding who to buy health insurance from. And if its through your employer and you still dont like it, buy it elsewhere. You do have options if you dont like it. Yes it will likely cost you more, but there are other ways to do it. Or travel further to a different doctor.

 

[elephant29]

Smoking is a HABIT and not necessary for life...its not oxygen, food or water...its a habit. Thats it. So, yes people can work 12 hours, people can and DO choose to not smoke while at work or around others. These peoe DO have control.

Of course they CAN do the shift without smoking and they CHOSE to smoke. However a habit is just that, something that is hard to break which is why I said people would be hard pushed to go this time without smoking, not that they couldnt do it.

These people do have control yes but they also have choice and should be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

 

[omfgski]

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[elt1013]

If you really feel like having a non-smoking caregiver is that important to you and the right thing to do, then why would you care what it looks like to others or be embarrassed or feel awkward for that matter? And as for the parents who don't have it in them to speak up...they only have themselves to blame. People who don't have the ability to speak up for their children, don't really have any right having them in the first place.

And the right to healthcare that isn't contaminated by smoke toxins? Someone who smokes a couple times during their breaks is not going to have enough toxins on them to contaminate you or your child, especially if they wash their hands like they are supposed to in the first place. Third hand smoke is the build up of toxins OVER TIME.

I find that most people who smoke where I live, are curtious enough to wash their hands, chew some gum, brush their teeth, etc. to be sure not wreak like smoke when working. This particular midwife of your friend just sounds like a flatout rude person in general, but not all smokers are like this.

Smoking is not illegal and therefore, like I said before, unavoidable. We all have to deal with things other people do that we don't like...it is called life.

 

[Sarahkka]

If you really feel like having a non-smoking caregiver is that important to you and the right thing to do, then why would you care what it looks like to others or be embarrassed or feel awkward for that matter? And as for the parents who don't have it in them to speak up...they only have themselves to blame. People who don't have the ability to speak up for their children, don't really have any right having them in the first place.

And the right to healthcare that isn't contaminated by smoke toxins? Someone who smokes a couple times during their breaks is not going to have enough toxins on them to contaminate you or your child, especially if they wash their hands like they are supposed to in the first place. Third hand smoke is the build up of toxins OVER TIME.

I find that most people who smoke where I live, are curtious enough to wash their hands, chew some gum, brush their teeth, etc. to be sure not wreak like smoke when working. This particular midwife of your friend just sounds like a flatout rude person in general, but not all smokers are like this.

Smoking is not illegal and therefore, like I said before, unavoidable. We all have to deal with things other people do that we don't like...it is called life.

Not necessarily. I am not sure you are quite interpreting bioaccumulation correctly in this statement (apologies if I am misunderstanding your meaning! ) The rule of thumb is that if you can smell smoke, then there are sufficient particles to be considered harmful (harmful meaning you are inhaling harmful particles into your body, which can then build up in your tissue, hence the build-up of particles OVER TIME). Repeated exposure to thirdhand smoke (again a definition here: let's say it's a midwife/nurse/doctor who has gone out for a puff and come back in smelling of smoke - that is considered as one exposure - although concentration of the exposure would depend on the length of time you spend breathing in the smoke coming off them) will account for the bioaccumulation of toxins in tissue. And if you are talking about a small and very sensitive body, such as a newborn infant (or worse, a preemie), then these repeated exposures could be a cause for concern far more quickly than you might think. My SIL had preemie twins and was given instructions about smokers handling them when she was sent home from the hospital. And that was 10 years ago.
You can also get thirdhand smoke dosages from spaces where smoking occurs - it doesn't need to be fresh smoke here - it can build up in fabrics, etc and be yet another exposure that way - maybe this is what you were thinking of as building up over time?
Anyway, this isn't particularly new science.
And I would say that it should not just be expected of patients to request non-smoking medical practitioners, I think the industry should be setting this as a basic standard of care and asking professionals to adhere to that standard. We make handwashing, vaccinations, and all sorts of other practises mandatory. This should follow suit.

 

[elephant29]

Smoking is a HABIT and not necessary for life...its not oxygen, food or water...its a habit. Thats it. So, yes people can work 12 hours, people can and DO choose to not smoke while at work or around others. These peoe DO have control.

Of course they CAN do the shift without smoking and they CHOSE to smoke. However a habit is just that, something that is hard to break which is why I said people would be hard pushed to go this time without smoking, not that they couldnt do it.

These people do have control yes but they also have choice and should be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

It's not just themselves who are influenced by that choice though.

It's easy for people to say, "oh, request a non-smoker then!" but in practice it's not so simple. What if there are only smokers available? What if asking for a non-smoker means you don't get the immediate care you need (e.g. replacement midwife in labour)? What if the smoker is offended and bitches to their colleagues who in turn act unprofessionally and don't provide the best service they should?

Also, why should someone have to go throught the potential embarrassment and awkwardness of requesting a non-smoker? My friend's OH had to really stand his ground before they would swap the midwife who stank of smoke for one who didn't. What if this was a woman labouring alone? Or with someone who couldn't stand up for her? Should she really have to have her brand new baby handled by a smoker? For some people, it's not easy to speak up so why should they even have to?

You would be hard pushed to find a nursery or a school that doesn't have some smokers for staff and in those situations you wouldn't be allowed to request someone else to teach your child or look after them. And if you move your child to a new nursery, what are the chances of them having smokers? There's no escape. Smoker's always go on about their right to choose to smoke etc and it makes no sense to me. What about a non smokers right to access healthcare that isn't contaminated by smoke toxins? What about a child's right to not have smoke breath breathed all over them?

I'm rambling now lol.

Ramble away haha.

I do understand what you are saying but I have to still disagree, but only as a personal opinion. I honestly dont see that much harm in having a smoker look after my children. I wouldnt allow them to smoke around them but if they wish to have a smoke on their break then thats fine. I know it's not everyone's opinion but its how I feel.

I quit smoking when pregnant but started again after 3 months. I wash my hands etc etc but I dont think my children are at risk from me or suffering in anyway because I go outside of my house, when they are asleep or not there, and have a cigarette!

If you do feel strongly about it then you shouldnt feel akward about asking for a non smoker. If non are available then the choice is yours how to handle it but you cant tell someone not to smoke at work.

x

 

[omfgski]

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[Sarahkka]

I used to smoke. I was a "social smoker", ie I probably averaged a cigarette a day at my heaviest smoking period, but otherwise would have a couple of cigs out at the bar every now and then. And I definitely think that anti-smoking policies are for the good of everyone.

 

[omfgski]

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[JASMAK]

My mom used to smoke (quit when she had kids) and she is sooo anti smoking, she would be happy to have it illegal.

 

[Liesje]

I used to smoke, it was just what was done in my family, everyone chain smoked. I only quit as a joke at first because people told me I was spending enough to buy a car, and they were right, I bought a brand new SUV for the same amount a month I spent on cigarettes.
I won't lie, I have a little bit of a dislike for anti-smokers (not to be confused with neutral non-smokers) because they seem to just love to be able to openly hate and harass people. What other group of people is it acceptable to be able to stand next to on the street and tell them how disgusting and filthy they are?

 

[omfgski]

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[Liesje]

Most of them do, yes. In Ontario it's illegal to smoke within 20 meters of an entrance, in bars, under two or more umbrellas touching, in a work vehicle (even if you own the vehicle/business), in a vehicle with a child, etc. all understandable rules. I always adhered to all of them. I can't count the number of times where people approached ME next to the curb to tell me how disgusting and unhealthy it is. They would make me remove my headphones as I was walking to work to tell me as they were walking behind me, they're walking in my smoke trail. Dreadfully sorry if it's hypocritical for me to hate people who are harassing me.
My suggestion to them was instead of whining at me for doing something which wasn't illegal, contact their Member of Parliament and ask for such legislation. Until then it's harassment.

 

[elephant29]

Thats a good point about whether you would feel differently if you smoked. As a smoker I dont consider smoking 1 cig per day to be a 'typical smoker'. For example I can smoke 10/15 per day, this is a heavy smoker. I quit for over 10 months and didnt miss it, it's filthy and disgusting and costs a bloody fortune! I got pnd and wasnt allowed medication as I was bf so after stopping I started smoking the 'odd' cig a day and my habit started again.

Anyway now I'm rambling! I believe that because I am a smoker I see it totally differently from non smokers. Of course I dont agree with something that would mean I wasnt allowed to smoke. God I hated the ban in public places to start with. Now though I love it and couldnt imagine smoking inside so maybe i'd eventually get used to it!

xx