OT deadly shooting at elementary school

[lhancock90]

Has anyone reead this yet? https://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother. Written by the mother of a mentally ill 13 year old and how difficult it is to get help for him. While I completely agree that it needs to be more difficult to obtain a gun, this letter has made me realize how important it is to figure out something to do about people like Adam Lanza and this 13 year old. There needs to be more help for them and their families. I have no idea what... It's not like you can justify locking someone in a psychiatric ward forever because they tend to be violent and have outbursts of anger and might do something.

I read this last night, it really confirmed my previous post. Its just so so true.

 

[Tiff]

Has anyone reead this yet? https://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother. Written by the mother of a mentally ill 13 year old and how difficult it is to get help for him. While I completely agree that it needs to be more difficult to obtain a gun, this letter has made me realize how important it is to figure out something to do about people like Adam Lanza and this 13 year old. There needs to be more help for them and their families. I have no idea what... It's not like you can justify locking someone in a psychiatric ward forever because they tend to be violent and have outbursts of anger and might do something.

Yeah I saw that too, so sad.

I've never thought that outlawing guns is the answer, but I can honestly say that I don't understand the mentality that gun ownership is a right whereas health care is a privilege. I honestly feel that it should be the other way around.

Not saying that anyone on here is implying that of course. That's (again) just how it seems as a viewpoint from someone who doesn't live in The States.

 

[Tasha]

My husband has tried to commit suicide on numerous occassions, once I found him hanging and unconcious. I saved his life and through our hard work and determination he is in a much better place. Despite begging doctors and hospitals there has been no help for him, honestly men in the UK are practically laughed at if they ask for MH help. I have written numerous threads on here when I thought I was going to crumble because I was caring for him twenty-fours a day, just me, not sleeping because I was terrified that if I did then he would be dead when I woke.

If there was a gun avaliable when he was at his lowest I am sure he would of used it, and there is pretty much no coming back from that Can I be one hundred percent sure he would of only used it on himself? No. His pain and desperation was from our daughter dying and him wanting to be with her, at one point he did say he was torn between two worlds and how he wished we could all be together. Perhaps a gun would of made that easier for him, perhaps not.

So what I mean is that mental health care here is awful, but we dont get the same number of these incidences because it is much harder to get a gun, IMO. Improved mental health care alone wont stop these incidences, it will take looking at gun laws (not saying ban them btw, but ease of access/avaliablity does have an impact too. It allows people to act on impulse, it allows people the cowardly way out when perhaps they wouldnt chose to hurt someone else if they had to be so close to them such as a knife), possibly security and maybe other things too.

 

[NellyLou]

Has anyone reead this yet? https://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother. Written by the mother of a mentally ill 13 year old and how difficult it is to get help for him. While I completely agree that it needs to be more difficult to obtain a gun, this letter has made me realize how important it is to figure out something to do about people like Adam Lanza and this 13 year old. There needs to be more help for them and their families. I have no idea what... It's not like you can justify locking someone in a psychiatric ward forever because they tend to be violent and have outbursts of anger and might do something.

Yeah I saw that too, so sad.

I've never thought that outlawing guns is the answer, but I can honestly say that I don't understand the mentality that gun ownership is a right whereas health care is a privilege. I honestly feel that it should be the other way around.

Not saying that anyone on here is implying that of course. That's (again) just how it seems as a viewpoint from someone who doesn't live in The States.

I completely agree with you Tiff

Wow, Tasha, so sorry you have been through that!

I think it needs to be a mixture of better gun control and help for the mentally ill.

 

[louandivy]

My husband has tried to commit suicide on numerous occassions, once I found him hanging and unconcious. I saved his life and through our hard work and determination he is in a much better place. Despite begging doctors and hospitals there has been no help for him, honestly men in the UK are practically laughed at if they ask for MH help. I have written numerous threads on here when I thought I was going to crumble because I was caring for him twenty-fours a day, just me, not sleeping because I was terrified that if I did then he would be dead when I woke.

If there was a gun avaliable when he was at his lowest I am sure he would of used it, and there is pretty much no coming back from that Can I be one hundred percent sure he would of only used it on himself? No. His pain and desperation was from our daughter dying and him wanting to be with her, at one point he did say he was torn between two worlds and how he wished we could all be together. Perhaps a gun would of made that easier for him, perhaps not.

So what I mean is that mental health care here is awful, but we dont get the same number of these incidences because it is much harder to get a gun, IMO. Improved mental health care alone wont stop these incidences, it will take looking at gun laws (not saying ban them btw, but ease of access/avaliablity does have an impact too. It allows people to act on impulse, it allows people the cowardly way out when perhaps they wouldnt chose to hurt someone else if they had to be so close to them such as a knife), possibly security and maybe other things too.

My uncle killed himself with my grandfather's gun in Canada and I do wonder if it wasn't readily available that maybe he would still be alive as he was a very impulsive and emotional person who experienced extreme highs and lows. My dad was so depressed over it he actually voluntarily committed himself into a psychiatric hospital because his grief made him suicidal too. I am so sorry you have to deal with this and you are right, mental health care is appalling but even worse for men and I can imagine even worse still in America where healthcare isn't even a given right to everyone. I hope he gets the help you both deserve soon.

 

[smelly07]

Theres a debate on facebook about this - i havent joined in but i am reading it and someone just post the below, i thought it was interesting:

There are 314,947,000 people in the usa
and there are 62,262,000 people in the uk - the below happened in the UK
The Dunblane school massacre. The gunman, 43-year-old Thomas Hamilton entered the school armed with four handguns, shooting and killing sixteen children and one adult before committing suicide.
The Cumbria shootings was a killing spree when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself.
The Hungerford massacre occurred in, Berkshire, England, The gunman, 27-year-old Michael Robert Ryan, shot and killed sixteen people including his mother, and wounded fifteen others, then fatally shot himself.
plus there are lots more.
These are the stat's
Number of Murders by firearms in Britain 58 - US 290 murders
Number of Murders by crossbow in Britain 2 -US 10 murders
but when you consider the populations between the countries who says tighter gun laws will even help and that the UK is safer than the USA?

what do you think?

My thoughts are this is misleading. Yes it has happened in the UK, but no where near as often as the US IMO. The incidences mentioned happened in 1996, 1998 and 1987 respectively. Where as I can think of two mass shootings this year alone (the school and cinema) but have read there has been a third, that I obviously missed.

As for the numbers it doesnt state when (time period) but I am guessing that it is last year this is where they got the information from and equivilant is not the same as the US only having had 290 and 10 https://readersupportednews.org/new...ders-a-year-by-firearms-in-britain-8775-in-us

I think this makes it much easier to understand. The US are at number twelve in the world for gun murders (2.98 per 100k) and the UK at number sixty-five (0.04 per 100k).

ETA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

I personally think that the avaliablity/ease of access does have an impact on how often these things happen.

I agree.

The fact guns are much harder to hey hold of here has a massive impact on the likelihood of this happening in the UK.

In Connecticut the waiting time for a gun is 2 weeks. You don't even need a licence or permit for rifles like he used.

If I for example snapped I could no way do this much damage in such a short amount of time. 2 minutes to kill 20 children

There was a attack in China the same 22 children were injured by a man with a knife, none died.

Tighter gun control would make a massive difference.

I don't understand hey anyone needs a gun tbh. Certainly a rifle like that. If you hunt then you should have to rent one and give it back.

Did you see a programme a few weeks ago, can't remember what it was or which channel it was but it said that the majority of guns that are confiscated or found to be used in crimes in this country are guns that are legally bought within the US. Quite scary.
I've heard a few ladies on here saying they own a gun and keep it in the house for protection... Honestly I think I would do whatever to protect my family but owning a gun seems so drastic.

It was interesting on facebook seeing everyones different thoughts and views and - i agree it is easier to get a gun in the usa than it is in the UK but i do think that if someone wants to do something that badly they will find away like i have said before at least if its pre-meditated. I'm not sure if stricter gun laws would help but i guess there is no harm in trying.

i know people in my town and people who i went to school had guns and knew how to get them - i dont think its as hard as people may think in this country illegally anyhow but i guess it depends on the people you know

 

[louandivy]

Has anyone reead this yet? https://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother. Written by the mother of a mentally ill 13 year old and how difficult it is to get help for him. While I completely agree that it needs to be more difficult to obtain a gun, this letter has made me realize how important it is to figure out something to do about people like Adam Lanza and this 13 year old. There needs to be more help for them and their families. I have no idea what... It's not like you can justify locking someone in a psychiatric ward forever because they tend to be violent and have outbursts of anger and might do something.

I read this last night, it really confirmed my previous post. Its just so so true.

The two issues are completely entwined though, I don't think its a case of either mental health or gun laws being the problem - circumstance plays a huge role in this.

 

[smelly07]

Also, the media makes a HUGE mistake in focusing so much on the killer and almost turning him into a celebrity. It is widely acknowledged that this is the ultimate cause of copycat killers and a source of motivation of those who have gone through their lives 'unnoticed' and this is their last desperate act to make SOME kind of impact on the world, but the media just doesn't give a shit and does whatever they can to sell papers.

i totally agree

 

[mommy0629]

I guess I just fail to understand the need to carry a gun on you in the first place. Maybe because its so different up here, but I couldn't imagine wandering around with a loaded weapon on the streets.

Is it really that bad or dangerous down there that there is a legitimate need for it? I'm not trying to slam anyone's culture or anything, just in case that is how this is coming across. Just trying to understand it all.

I agree, I don't see the need at all to have to walk the streets with a gun, but to legally even be able to do that is difficult. The problem is that criminals do it illegaly which scares some people into feeling the need to carry also.

Having a gun in your home with amunition so you can protect your family from an intruder if need be, feels alarmingly necessary.

 

[mommy0629]

Don't you find it interesting that in a country where fire arms are legal that you are more likely to be murdered by something other than a fire arm? We absolutely need limited forms of gun control, but it won't stop determined people from killing. It will definitely stop law abiding people from defending themselves. It will force people to be 100% dependent on the government for protection. That's a scary thought to me.

I don't think we're going to find a common ground here. It makes you feel safer to ban guns. It makes me feel safer to carry one. It works out fairly well then that we live in the places we do.

Exactly how I feel. All that banning the legal sale and ownership of guns will do is stop those of us who have them legally from having them at all for protection and the criminals will STILL have them illegaly. So, who wins there?

 

[Tiff]

I guess I just fail to understand the need to carry a gun on you in the first place. Maybe because its so different up here, but I couldn't imagine wandering around with a loaded weapon on the streets.

Is it really that bad or dangerous down there that there is a legitimate need for it? I'm not trying to slam anyone's culture or anything, just in case that is how this is coming across. Just trying to understand it all.

I agree, I don't see the need at all to have to walk the streets with a gun, but to legally even be able to do that is difficult. The problem is that criminals do it illegaly which scares some people into feeling the need to carry also.

Having a gun in your home with amunition so you can protect your family from an intruder if need be, feels alarmingly necessary.

That's so sad to me!!! We're by no means hippies or anything like that, we lock our doors at night and have things in place to prevent break ins but that would be really stressful to me to feel the need to be armed.

Of course, if something were to happen I may change my tune and want to have a gun in the house. As it stands I can't even fathom it. As I mentioned before, I lived in a part of Toronto where there is massive gang activity, shootings happen etc, and I never felt the need to have a gun. Maybe I'm quite comfortable living under a rock?

 

[mommy0629]

I guess I just fail to understand the need to carry a gun on you in the first place. Maybe because its so different up here, but I couldn't imagine wandering around with a loaded weapon on the streets.

Is it really that bad or dangerous down there that there is a legitimate need for it? I'm not trying to slam anyone's culture or anything, just in case that is how this is coming across. Just trying to understand it all.

I agree, I don't see the need at all to have to walk the streets with a gun, but to legally even be able to do that is difficult. The problem is that criminals do it illegaly which scares some people into feeling the need to carry also.

Having a gun in your home with amunition so you can protect your family from an intruder if need be, feels alarmingly necessary.

That's so sad to me!!! We're by no means hippies or anything like that, we lock our doors at night and have things in place to prevent break ins but that would be really stressful to me to feel the need to be armed.

Of course, if something were to happen I may change my tune and want to have a gun in the house. As it stands I can't even fathom it. As I mentioned before, I lived in a part of Toronto where there is massive gang activity, shootings happen etc, and I never felt the need to have a gun. Maybe I'm quite comfortable living under a rock?

It is sad, absolutely . The only guns we have in our home are hunting rifles, for hunting technically lol, but my husband works the overnight shift so when he goes target shooting to practice his aim and sight in the rifle, I go sometimes and shoot targets because he wants me to be able to know how to use it if I have to. It's NEVER EVER loaded in our house though. But if I, God forbid, needed to load and use it, I know how. Sad, but true. IT does bring up a point of responsible gun ownership though.

I said it before in my original post, not that I blame her, God rest her soul, but how the shooter's mother knew that her son was mentally disturbed and didn't have those guns completely unaccessable to him I'll never understand.

 

[Andypanda6570]

I guess I just fail to understand the need to carry a gun on you in the first place. Maybe because its so different up here, but I couldn't imagine wandering around with a loaded weapon on the streets.

Is it really that bad or dangerous down there that there is a legitimate need for it? I'm not trying to slam anyone's culture or anything, just in case that is how this is coming across. Just trying to understand it all.

I agree, I don't see the need at all to have to walk the streets with a gun, but to legally even be able to do that is difficult. The problem is that criminals do it illegaly which scares some people into feeling the need to carry also.

Having a gun in your home with amunition so you can protect your family from an intruder if need be, feels alarmingly necessary.

That's so sad to me!!! We're by no means hippies or anything like that, we lock our doors at night and have things in place to prevent break ins but that would be really stressful to me to feel the need to be armed.

Of course, if something were to happen I may change my tune and want to have a gun in the house. As it stands I can't even fathom it. As I mentioned before, I lived in a part of Toronto where there is massive gang activity, shootings happen etc, and I never felt the need to have a gun. Maybe I'm quite comfortable living under a rock?

It is sad, absolutely . The only guns we have in our home are hunting rifles, for hunting technically lol, but my husband works the overnight shift so when he goes target shooting to practice his aim and sight in the rifle, I go sometimes and shoot targets because he wants me to be able to know how to use it if I have to. It's NEVER EVER loaded in our house though. But if I, God forbid, needed to load and use it, I know how. Sad, but true. IT does bring up a point of responsible gun ownership though.

I said it before in my original post, not that I blame her, God rest her soul, but how the shooter's mother knew that her son was mentally disturbed and didn't have those guns completely unaccessable to him I'll never understand.

I think she did have them tight away, her friends even said she was to responsible not to and they also didn't even know she owned guns. I think he threatened his mother and she provided access in fear of her life, but he killed her anyway. Like I said earlier why would he try to purchase a gun if they were so easily accessible? He would have just got her guns and that would have been the end of it, but he tried to obtain them himself, it was also reported the day before the shooting he had an altercation at the school? So if that is true ( don't know if it is) something was going on here. They have said after searching the house they know what happened and the motive, but they are not releasing the info yet. There is no motive really, but I would love to hear this.. Very sad

 

[special_kala]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/16/article-2249185-168BE173000005DC-875_634x408.jpg

Those figures are shocking

 

[smelly07]

That is shocking - it does make me think about how different we females must be wired mentally/emotionally compared to men as well - why is it mainly males that do such horrific things?

 

[xSin]

Has anyone reead this yet? https://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother. Written by the mother of a mentally ill 13 year old and how difficult it is to get help for him. While I completely agree that it needs to be more difficult to obtain a gun, this letter has made me realize how important it is to figure out something to do about people like Adam Lanza and this 13 year old. There needs to be more help for them and their families. I have no idea what... It's not like you can justify locking someone in a psychiatric ward forever because they tend to be violent and have outbursts of anger and might do something.

Yeah I saw that too, so sad.

I've never thought that outlawing guns is the answer, but I can honestly say that I don't understand the mentality that gun ownership is a right whereas health care is a privilege. I honestly feel that it should be the other way around.

Not saying that anyone on here is implying that of course. That's (again) just how it seems as a viewpoint from someone who doesn't live in The States.

I find it astonishing (looking at that chart that was posted earlier) how many deaths occur from Medical Error... but that's a whole other topic.

I am with you I don't "get" the mentality that MANY of the Americans have about gun ownership. My dad owns guns, and like other Canadians, he follows the laws about storage, and that's I think what is really really key here.

As much as I can appreciate the desire to protect onesself from intruders, I'd LOVE to see stats on how many home intrusions occur? How many of those gun related deaths or injuries, are related to home intrusions? Up here its not like we don't desire to protect ourselves, nor is it that we don't have bad guys. When Canadians speak of "Availability" of guns in regards to the US I don't even think we're referring to "Accessibility to purchase" although I saw a report just yesterday that said there are more Gun retailers, than McDonalds in the US... and more Gun retailers, than Grocery stores in the US and THAT one especially boggled my mind (they apparently got this information from numbers of business licenses given out)

Up here we protect ourselves by locking our doors, locking our windows, leaving a light on, making entryways visible or well lit, by being neighborly so that there's a mutual understanding of "IF you see something suspicious, let us know" sort of deal. I'm not saying we don't have bad guys with guns.... because we do. How they obtain them doesn't even matter to me all that much because OUR bad guys with guns are more often than not shooting OTHER bad guys with guns. (They do a pretty good job of keeping the violence contained within the parameters of "So & So was known to police" and gang related incidents) and YES there are sometimes innocent bystanders which end up getting injured or killed... but the innocent bystanders aren't the targets the way they are down there.

The CRAZIES (for lack of a more generalized term) that go on rampages in the States shooting up High Schools, Universities, Movie Theatres, Elementary Schools, Shopping Centres, and Hospitals and then Movie Theatres again ....these are the individuals who really stand out as being overly destructive to society & ultimately when they're done, themselves... and these are the ones that even some level of gun control will protect.

Adam Lanza's mother, I'm sure her guns were purchased so that she could "Protect herself" -- See how well that worked? She's dead, and her guns ended up in the hands of her son who then went on to murder children. So no, having guns in the house isn't a guarantee (even remotely) of being able to protect onesself and this is where there needs to be some kind of tightening of what laws do exist down there.

Adam Lanza -- Suspected to have a personality disorder / Firearms owned by mother
Aurora Movie theatre shooter -- Defense is related to mental illness / Firearms purchased by himself (it looks like it at least)
Virginia Tech shooter -- Prior diagnosis of a severe anxiety disorder / Purchased own firearms although I do see that this discovery did lead to some gun control reform
Columbine shooters -- Undergoing psychiatric care prior to incident / Firearms purchased through a friend
Oregon Mall Shooting -- Allegedly may have been "Depressed" / Firearms purchased legally it looks like
Alabama Hospital Shooter -- Not enough info yet

I guess what I'm getting at here is the differing definition of "Accessible firearms" -- In Canada its difficult enough to obtain a firearm (as well as expensive enough I'm pretty sure) that anyone who may be cognitively challenged in any shape or form, simply ...can't. It either takes too long, or is too complicated a process, or it requires too many forms / fees / etc and the process itself helps weed out those who would be inappropriate to bear arms, and that's besides the restrictions placed upon who can own them to begin with. Laws regarding storage also means that they can't be easily obtained from friends or relatives.

I hear ALL the time in these debates (I'm pleased to have not read it thus far in this debate) that "Criminals don't use legally obtained firearms, so gun control won't do anything to curb crime" -- Well, it looks like some of the US Criminals DO in fact use legally obtained firearms... in fact in 5/6 and most likely 6/6 of those incidents, those firearms were made "available" through legal purchase one way or the other. The other issue I have with that statement is that in NONE of these instances, were any of these guys "Criminals" until they'd started to commit these heinous crimes. By which point it's already too late.

In Canada, people can't "reach" firearms on a whim. Either people don't have them in their homes, or if they do they've got them so locked up it'd be difficult to obtain all the necessary components to make it work, OR if they have them but don't have them locked up properly, chances are they REALLY aren't the sort of person whose house you want to try to break into if you get what I mean (gang members, drug people, etc).

Also in Canada I suppose there isn't the "glorification" of firearms that there seems to be to some extent. I can't name any one of my friends who if they wanted to acquire a firearm, they wouldn't be asked "Why on earth do you want that?" by probably all of their friends & family. In the US, I doubt that question is really asked, its taken as "natural" to want to acquire a firearm and motives aren't really questioned because it's their "right to bear arms"

Very difficult cultures for neighboring countries, that's for sure. I'm not sure I have any answers as to what might work. I don't think disarming the US citizens is even possible... I agree with what was stated earlier that the attempt would almost certainly start some kind of a civil war. (And no doubt a very bloody one at that)

I do NOT think that MORE guns in the hands of school officials (Teachers, administrators, etc) is the answer AT ALL though, it baffles me how on earth anyone even REACHES that mentality. All that means is that the next Adam Lanza doesn't even have to make a pit stop at home first... or if he does, he shoots the teacher and has the teacher's gun as WELL as his own... if anything, increasing the scope of damage.

My heart goes out to the victims, families, friends, and first responders to that horrific crime. I don't have any answers but I sincerely hope that their lives and this loss serves to SOMEHOW make some kind of changes to the US and how it approaches guns.

 

[xSin]

And a MUCH shorter comment as well...

In regards to crime rates & populations...

Here's a link from 2010 (no idea what it is today but considering our violent crime based on media reporting SEEMS to have only gotten worse since 2010...) states that crime rates in Vancouver BC are more than double what they are in New York

Vancouver population: 603,502
New York population: 8,244,910

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...6/bc-progress-board-report-crime-poverty.html

So the argument of "We have more people therefore it seems like we have more crime" isn't always necessarily the case.

 

[Randianne]

I do NOT think that MORE guns in the hands of school officials (Teachers, administrators, etc) is the answer AT ALL though, it baffles me how on earth anyone even REACHES that mentality. All that means is that the next Adam Lanza doesn't even have to make a pit stop at home first... or if he does, he shoots the teacher and has the teacher's gun as WELL as his own... if anything, increasing the scope of damage.

Here's why people are calling for armed teachers: Shooters are cowards. Arming teachers would be less about protection and more about deterring an attack. Have you ever heard of a mass shooting where there were obvious armed guards? Shooters don't choose victims who can shoot back. For our local school, I'm pushing for armed guards on the premises. That's a deterrent and reliable protection.

I actually agree with you about arming teachers, but for different reasons. I don't want anyone inexperienced with guns anywhere around my kid. If you start giving guns to people who have no business handling them, you're going to have dead kids from accidental discharges.

I really hope this makes people stop ignoring mental health in America. I heard today that people turn to violence when all the socially acceptable ways of expressing themselves have failed. I think that is so true. There is a reason that most of these shooters are young, white males. As appalled as I am by what Adam Lanza did, part of me wonders how many peaceable attempts he made to get help before he decided that violence and death were the answer.

 

[Tiff]

Mental health issues need to change for sure. However, I don't think arming teachers is the answer. There's no chance in hell I'd want my baby to be caught in the crossfire between a teacher and an attacker. Far too much of a chance for stray bullets, iykwim?

 

[tentoes92]

Don't you find it interesting that in a country where fire arms are legal that you are more likely to be murdered by something other than a fire arm? We absolutely need limited forms of gun control, but it won't stop determined people from killing. It will definitely stop law abiding people from defending themselves. It will force people to be 100% dependent on the government for protection. That's a scary thought to me.

I don't think we're going to find a common ground here. It makes you feel safer to ban guns. It makes me feel safer to carry one. It works out fairly well then that we live in the places we do.

Exactly how I feel. All that banning the legal sale and ownership of guns will do is stop those of us who have them legally from having them at all for protection and the criminals will STILL have them illegaly. So, who wins there?

Totally agree.