OT deadly shooting at elementary school

[louandivy]

Also, the media makes a HUGE mistake in focusing so much on the killer and almost turning him into a celebrity. It is widely acknowledged that this is the ultimate cause of copycat killers and a source of motivation of those who have gone through their lives 'unnoticed' and this is their last desperate act to make SOME kind of impact on the world, but the media just doesn't give a shit and does whatever they can to sell papers.

 

[special_kala]

I'm hoping this case will be different. The faces of those beautiful kids and brave teachers seems at the moment to be what people are concentrating on. He isn't getting much mention over all.

 

[Randianne]

I think it's hard for a lot of you who haven't grown up around guns to understand why it is so important to most Americans to have access to them. I can see how the concept of having guns would be scary if all you know of them is what you've seen on TV and in movies. I'm just going to give you my perspective.

My husband and I own guns and have concealed carry permits. We keep a loaded gun in the house. The circumstances dictate whether or not we actually carry our guns with us. We both grew up around weapons and we're both former military. We've shot thousands upon thousands of rounds between the two of us. We are responsible gun owners who know how to handle a gun safely. Carrying a gun saved my father-in-law's life when he was attacked by car thieves. He didn't even have to shoot. When they saw his gun, they ran away even though they had their own gun.

The reason we are anti-gun control is simple. We refuse to give up the right to protect ourselves and our families. It's not just for protection against criminals, but also governments. I know that makes me sound like a conspiracy nut, so let me be clear: I DO NOT think that the current governments of the US, UK, or Canada are any threat to their citizens. However, that's for right now. It doesn't mean that a corrupt government could never take over. It's happened before.

I think the strongest case for armed citizens is Germany. I've seen a lot of statements thrown around about how Hitler and the Nazis disarmed their citizens. This isn't exactly true. The previous governing party (the Weimar Republic) started gun registration and limiting and banning guns. Their intentions were to save lives, but the laws adopted by the Weimar Republic intending to disarm Nazis and Communists were used BY the Nazis against their enemies once they were in power. They did add to the gun laws in 1938 to further restrict them from 'non-citizens' (aka Jews) hands. But they didn't pass the gun laws that allowed them to start murdering the Jews.

If the Jews had the ability to defend themselves, would the holocaust have happened? Would it have been as deadly? How many lives would have been saved if the Jews could have fought back? You can't ignore horrible incidents like the shooting in Newtown, but you can't ignore history either.

I think you have to take all mass casualty incidents as a learning experience. I don't know what the answer is to this one. I'm skeptical of the arming teachers thing too because guns are incredibly dangerous in the hands of anyone who doesn't know how to handle them properly. I don't want a teacher who took a three day gun course anywhere near my LO. I'm leaning toward having armed guards in every school. It's a sad step to take, but it might be one of the most realistic. Shooters are cowards. They don't attack places where people can shoot back.

We definitely need better mental health care in this country. It's ridiculous how people with mental issues are treated. We also need better gun education and more responsible gun owners. You do need to lock up your guns. If you have people who shouldn't handle guns in the house, then you need to decide to lock it away or keep it on your person.

Banning guns isn't going to stop gun ownership anymore than banning drugs has stopped drug use. There are over 200,000,000 fire arms in this country. Lots of states don't even require you to register a firearm once you buy it. Do you really think you can take them all away? Banning guns would also nullify our Constitution, which this country was founded on. Not to mention possibly start a civil war. That's how strongly LOTS of Americans feel about their guns. There is a reason that gun sales have massively increased since Obama was reelected. Overall I think he's a pretty good guy, but he might be the first President to try to ban guns. Especially now.

I agree that I hated seeing the media interviewing kids right after the shootings. That's insane. But they have been much better this time about not glamourizing the shooter. I hope they continue that.

Sorry if that was ranty and it wasn't intended to be preachy. I just see a lot of you who don't really know or understand the gun culture in the US and why we feel like we do. Even if you don't agree, maybe you'll see where we are coming from. We just want the right to protect ourselves and our families.

 

[staralfur]

I realize that banning guns outright would be a huge and complicated issue, and I don't know enough about American laws and politics to even discuss that.

But what about the suggestion that it's somehow made harder to obtain guns? Or impossible to obtain assault rifles like the ones used in recent mass shootings? Surely they could limit which guns are made readily available to those who choose to have them.

 

[louandivy]

This is an excellent essay that is worth reading even though it is fairly long.

https://www.timwise.org/2012/12/of-...der-and-the-absurdity-of-the-more-guns-crowd/

"Those who believe an armed teacher (or 2, or 3, or 5) could have stopped the Virginia Tech shooter, or the kids at Columbine, or Kip Kinkel, or most recently Adam Lanza, presuppose conditions at the scene that are absolutely fantasy-like, the stuff of video games, and surely bear no resemblance to the actual, real-world chaos that reigns in cases such as this. Simply put, it is one thing when one is serving in a war zone, or when one is a law enforcement officer, to come upon someone engaging in violent action, where confronting the shooter would be the logical and trained response. Soldiers and cops are prepared for such moments. But a kindergarten teacher or school principal or calculus professor, or whatever — even if that person is an expert shot — cannot be expected to react quickly and calmly enough to disarm a mass murderer. When such a person bursts into a classroom, the event is so utterly out of context, that the mere time it takes for those inside to even figure out what’s happening, would prove more than sufficient for these shooters to do their damage. "

"But one thing is clear: the notion that because gun control won’t necessarily stop a given crime, it is therefore a useless gesture, is an argument unworthy of a civilized people. By that logic, there should be no limit on any kind of weapon — surface-to-air-missiles, personal tactical nukes, or tanks — since, after all, people who really want them will still get them."

 

[Tiff]

But surely the laws are in place to prevent the need to protect yourself with a gun?

Maybe I live in under a rock, but there haven't been mass shootings here. People don't feel the need to have a gun to protect themselves, that's what we have the police force. What's the point of having law enforcement personnel if something goes sideways you're just going to shoot them anyways?

I've never felt the need to have a gun to make sure that I am safe and protected. I've lived in bigger cities (2.3 million people) and in high-crime rate areas with gangs and whatnot, even then I didn't feel the need to "protect" myself.

In all actuality, how often have you felt the need to protect yourself? To show your gun and be all "back off, buddy or I'll shoot?". Do you really live in an area where someone doing harm to you is a legitimate threat? Again, I'm not trying to be anything other than genuinely curious.

 

[emyandpotato]

I think it's hard for a lot of you who haven't grown up around guns to understand why it is so important to most Americans to have access to them. I can see how the concept of having guns would be scary if all you know of them is what you've seen on TV and in movies. I'm just going to give you my perspective.

My husband and I own guns and have concealed carry permits. We keep a loaded gun in the house. The circumstances dictate whether or not we actually carry our guns with us. We both grew up around weapons and we're both former military. We've shot thousands upon thousands of rounds between the two of us. We are responsible gun owners who know how to handle a gun safely. Carrying a gun saved my father-in-law's life when he was attacked by car thieves. He didn't even have to shoot. When they saw his gun, they ran away even though they had their own gun.

The reason we are anti-gun control is simple. We refuse to give up the right to protect ourselves and our families. It's not just for protection against criminals, but also governments. I know that makes me sound like a conspiracy nut, so let me be clear: I DO NOT think that the current governments of the US, UK, or Canada are any threat to their citizens. However, that's for right now. It doesn't mean that a corrupt government could never take over. It's happened before.

I think the strongest case for armed citizens is Germany. I've seen a lot of statements thrown around about how Hitler and the Nazis disarmed their citizens. This isn't exactly true. The previous governing party (the Weimar Republic) started gun registration and limiting and banning guns. Their intentions were to save lives, but the laws adopted by the Weimar Republic intending to disarm Nazis and Communists were used BY the Nazis against their enemies once they were in power. They did add to the gun laws in 1938 to further restrict them from 'non-citizens' (aka Jews) hands. But they didn't pass the gun laws that allowed them to start murdering the Jews.

If the Jews had the ability to defend themselves, would the holocaust have happened? Would it have been as deadly? How many lives would have been saved if the Jews could have fought back? You can't ignore horrible incidents like the shooting in Newtown, but you can't ignore history either.

I think you have to take all mass casualty incidents as a learning experience. I don't know what the answer is to this one. I'm skeptical of the arming teachers thing too because guns are incredibly dangerous in the hands of anyone who doesn't know how to handle them properly. I don't want a teacher who took a three day gun course anywhere near my LO. I'm leaning toward having armed guards in every school. It's a sad step to take, but it might be one of the most realistic. Shooters are cowards. They don't attack places where people can shoot back.

We definitely need better mental health care in this country. It's ridiculous how people with mental issues are treated. We also need better gun education and more responsible gun owners. You do need to lock up your guns. If you have people who shouldn't handle guns in the house, then you need to decide to lock it away or keep it on your person.

Banning guns isn't going to stop gun ownership anymore than banning drugs has stopped drug use. There are over 200,000,000 fire arms in this country. Lots of states don't even require you to register a firearm once you buy it. Do you really think you can take them all away? Banning guns would also nullify our Constitution, which this country was founded on. Not to mention possibly start a civil war. That's how strongly LOTS of Americans feel about their guns. There is a reason that gun sales have massively increased since Obama was reelected. Overall I think he's a pretty good guy, but he might be the first President to try to ban guns. Especially now.

I agree that I hated seeing the media interviewing kids right after the shootings. That's insane. But they have been much better this time about not glamourizing the shooter. I hope they continue that.

Sorry if that was ranty and it wasn't intended to be preachy. I just see a lot of you who don't really know or understand the gun culture in the US and why we feel like we do. Even if you don't agree, maybe you'll see where we are coming from. We just want the right to protect ourselves and our families.

I get what you're saying. I am petrified of the dark, and of people; intruders, people near me in a quiet street, taxi drivers... I cannot sleep in a house by myself. There have been plenty of times when I've wished I had a gun to make me feel safer. There have been times, when I was younger, when I wished I had a gun because taking hundreds of pills doesn't do the job in real life like it does on TV. I'm sorry that that's dark, but I do completely understand the perceived necessity to keep a gun. The fact is that guns can do damage in an instant, an intruder in your home is prepared to shoot, if they would have shot at all. Someone defending themselves has to find the gun, compose themselves, and figure out if they need to shoot at all. Unless they keep a gun on their person all the time, which is unlikely. There are a million reasons for gun control. Others have stated them all quite well. For me, if guns were legal here, I would be terrified to leave the house. I'd be all the more frightened of potential intruders. It's just not something I can consider without feeling sick.

What I wanted to make a point about here is what you said about the Jews. They removed their guns, but they also removed their radios, their instruments, their jewellery, their homes, their food, their teeth, their hair. They wanted to make them animals. I don't think it was really to do with them not defending themselves. If they had had guns then perhaps more Nazi soldiers would have died, but the Jews wouldn't have escaped persecution because of this. Examples would have been made of those who rebelled, with most likely even more murders of their families in retaliation. A frightened and starving mass of people from various different countries and speaking various different languages, many sick, too old, or too young, does not compare to an army of thousands trained to murder. I think comparing Nazi Germany to gun control in the US or Europe is quite ridiculous. And anyway, history shows us that the reason such extreme governments come to power, like the Nazis, is extreme poverty or desperation within a society. Poverty, desperation and suffering does not come from disarming a nation.

 

[Randianne]

Gun control isn't useless. There are people who should not have access to guns. We have federal laws (someone previously posted) about that. Beyond that every state's laws are different. Connecticut has stricter gun laws then a lot of other states.

Taking away guns from normal, law abiding citizens is the issue. Laws do not protect you because all laws do is punish the offender after the fact. It's not a deterrent at all if the shooter is planning on taking his own life as most of them do. I agree that you can't stop trying to keep guns out of of some people's hands. We need some gun control laws. We do not need mass disarmament.

If you think that a small group of rebels with guns can't change the government of a country then you need to study history and watch the world news. America's own revolution came about from a small group of armed rebels who eventually organized. Do you think that would have happened if they hadn't had guns? You greatly underestimate the power of the people and you ignore every revolution the world has ever seen if you think armed rebels couldn't have stopped a government's army. It is not impossible or improbable to think that if the Jews had been armed and organized then they could have stopped or reduced the lives lost during the Holocaust.

I never said poverty and desperation came from disarming a nation. Poverty and desperation can be used by a government to manipulate the people into giving up personal freedom. That's why Americans are concerned about the current push for disarmament. Our economy is in the toilet. We're facing huge tax increases in the new year because our Congress is incapable of working together. Unemployment is up. We have a national debt that we currently have no hope of paying. More and more people are turning to government assistance. Look up the economic conditions in pre-Nazi era Germany. There are frightening similarities. This would be a prime time for a government to consolidate power. Which is why it's a horrible time to ban guns.

I understand how you all could be so frightened by guns. Are you equally afraid of baseball bats? Because those are used in more violent in crimes in America then guns are. This is a chart showing how Americans are killed according to our FBI.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/45152_10152331471355582_1188902466_n.jpg

Remember there are about 200,000,000 guns in America. Then look again at those numbers. Statistically, if we want to reduce violent crimes we have a lot more weapons we need to ban before we look at the gun. And note the drug abuse deaths. We have banned illegal drugs. But you can see the number of abuse related deaths. Banning drugs hasn't slowed them down. It's easier to get illegal drugs than to legally buy a gun. Banning guns outright won't stop gun crime. It'll only stop the ability of citizens to fight back.

What I hope we won't ignore in the gun debate is the mental health problem. The US mental health system is broken. Lots of these shooters are males between 16 and 24. How many of them would have been stopped if mental health didn't have such a negative stigma. This is an article is called "I am Adam Lanza's Mother" and it really makes you think.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012...er-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html

 

[Tiff]

I dunno. 11,493 still seems like a crazy high number to me. And tobacco, while yes there are forms of 2nd hand smoke that do cause cancer and kill isn't a comparison to me. A cigarette didn't and will not go into a school and massacre innocent children in cold blood.

ETA: In fact ALL of those are mainly self inflicted. Car accident? Exactly that, an accident. Unless a person was being driven down in the movies its not a comparison. Alcohol abuse? Again, no comparison. They chose to drink, they did that to themselves.

You can't compare someone dying from alcohol abuse to someone shooting up a place with people in. That whole picture is ridiculous IMHO.

 

[Randianne]

But surely the laws are in place to prevent the need to protect yourself with a gun?

Maybe I live in under a rock, but there haven't been mass shootings here. People don't feel the need to have a gun to protect themselves, that's what we have the police force. What's the point of having law enforcement personnel if something goes sideways you're just going to shoot them anyways?

I've never felt the need to have a gun to make sure that I am safe and protected. I've lived in bigger cities (2.3 million people) and in high-crime rate areas with gangs and whatnot, even then I didn't feel the need to "protect" myself.

In all actuality, how often have you felt the need to protect yourself? To show your gun and be all "back off, buddy or I'll shoot?". Do you really live in an area where someone doing harm to you is a legitimate threat? Again, I'm not trying to be anything other than genuinely curious.

I have never used a gun to defend myself. I carry my gun so that others can't see it. It's a precaution. And (in IRL) I don't advertise it. There is no need to. I don't want a fight. I want to protect myself. This is my personal reason for carrying a gun:

In August 2009, I was working as a paramedic, and I was shot at after a mentally ill woman called us to her house and then opened fire. I was not allowed to carry a gun at work. Myself, my partner, and four firefighters were pinned down with no way to escape and no way to protect ourselves. It took six minutes for police to arrive and rescue us. If that woman had truly wanted to kill us, she could have and we couldn't have stopped it. Knowing your life is in danger and being unable to do anything about it is the worst feeling ever. Well, maybe. I think it might be worse if it was my LO. Anyway, I refuse to be that vulnerable again if I can help it. As long as guns can be obtained (illegally or legally), I will have a gun of my own.

Gun ownership is about personal safety and peace of mind. Just as you feel safer with no gun, I feel safer having one. I felt like that before my experience, but it was completely cemented after that. I want to defend my family immediately. I don't have to make a call and wait for police to respond. The police are amazing, but they can't always control response times. Six minutes can mean the difference between life or death. I was lucky. There have been others who were not.

 

[staralfur]

I would rather someone attack me with a baseball bat than a gun any day.

I can't really read the chart on my phone, but does it say anything about how many non-fatal attacks there were with baseball bats and guns?

Nothing will ever convince me that guns aren't the most dangerous weapon available.

 

[Randianne]

I dunno. 11,493 still seems like a crazy high number to me. And tobacco, while yes there are forms of 2nd hand smoke that do cause cancer and kill isn't a comparison to me. A cigarette didn't and will not go into a school and massacre innocent children in cold blood.

ETA: In fact ALL of those are mainly self inflicted. Car accident? Exactly that, an accident. Unless a person was being driven down in the movies its not a comparison. Alcohol abuse? Again, no comparison. They chose to drink, they did that to themselves.

You can't compare someone dying from alcohol abuse to someone shooting up a place with people in. That whole picture is ridiculous IMHO.

Car accidents are about half and half. But you're right, some of them are self inflicted.

If there are 200,000,000 guns and 11,493 deaths, then if one gun inflicts one death (which we know is not the case because of mass shootings) then the percentage of guns being used in intentional or unintentional deaths (they don't differentiate) is .005747 percent.

If 99.9943% of guns are not used to kill, then why take them from everybody? 11,493 is an awful number. But if you put it in perspective, there are a LOT of other things we could ban to save human lives. That's the point of that chart.

 

[Tiff]

The chart is pointless. You can't compare alcohol abuse to homicide. The only things on that chart that can be compared are non-firearm homicides and firearm homicides.

 

[Randianne]

Don't you find it interesting that in a country where fire arms are legal that you are more likely to be murdered by something other than a fire arm? We absolutely need limited forms of gun control, but it won't stop determined people from killing. It will definitely stop law abiding people from defending themselves. It will force people to be 100% dependent on the government for protection. That's a scary thought to me.

I don't think we're going to find a common ground here. It makes you feel safer to ban guns. It makes me feel safer to carry one. It works out fairly well then that we live in the places we do.

 

[tina3747]

Don't you find it interesting that in a country where fire arms are legal that you are more likely to be murdered by something other than a fire arm? We absolutely need limited forms of gun control, but it won't stop determined people from killing. It will definitely stop law abiding people from defending themselves. It will force people to be 100% dependent on the government for protection. That's a scary thought to me.

I don't think we're going to find a common ground here. It makes you feel safer to ban guns. It makes me feel safer to carry one. It works out fairly well then that we live in the places we do.

If you go back and read an earlier post of mine, a documentary I watched a few weeks back revealed that most firearm related crimes in this country were with legally bought guns from the US.

One gun in question was used in a teenagers murder, traced back to a firearms store from one state, they interviewe the store keeper. She said she was sad to hear what happened but not her fault as the gun was bought legally.

To buy a gun you only needed ID , they just ran a check and could buy it. Is it that simple or are there procedures before that?

 

[Andypanda6570]

I wont get into a debate about it, but it is our Norm and in our Constitution . Just like you all can't understand it, I was floored when i found out the police in the UK do not carry guns. It is right or wrong, I can't judge that, it is not my Norm so i am not used to it , but it doesn't mean I don't understand a little. Also people have to realize NOT every home in America have guns, most people do not. I think you all may have the impression you can just walk into a gun shop and buy one, you can't. Like I said in New York it is very hard to get a gun, my husband used to own a business and he could not even get a license
for him to keep one in the store, he was in a very bad neighborhood that had A LOT of crime, please don't think it so easy to get a gun and that everyone in the States has one, that simply is NOT true. The mother of this monster who killed these babies her guns were locked up, she followed the law for registering them and owning them plus it is not the norm for a person ( especially a woman ) to own those guns, they were very powerful and most households who do own a gun do NOT own those , more of a basic type for protection. I do agree there should be stricter laws in those states to own a gun such as the ones that were used in this massacre , there is no reason for a normal person to own these, more law enforcement people and professionals own these type of weapons . My husband is from Italy and the police there have those type of weapons. I want stricter laws in certain states but i DO NOT want my right to own a gun ever taken away. I just don't want people to get the impression everyone here owns a gun and they walk around with it all day long, that is just not so. It is almost near impossible to get a permit to carry a gun in New York State, almost impossible. Thank You

 

[lhancock90]

I am off the belief that the Gun is a tool, it can be switched out for any other tool that would be just as destructive, it can be found illegally if it is wanted that desperately but the MIND, that is the weapon, that is the driving force behind attacks like this. It is so easy to discuss gun control, i think the real issue is mental health.

(That said, i am NOT pro gun. But as a UK-er, things are different here)

 

[Andypanda6570]

Most of the time A person who is going through the law and legal steps to obtain a firearm are not going to go out and commit a crime, a gun every gun has a serial number that is always traced back to it's original owner . In this case and in most were guns are used to hurt someone, they have been stolen . Even on the street when you obtain a gun illegally they can match the bullet most times to the gun and eventually it will be traced to the original owner and most time to the hands of the perpetrator . I don't care where you live or who you are if a person is that determined to do destruction they will get a gun and do it. This kid ( Adam Lanza)also tried to obtain a gun before the act and was denied because he did not have the proper papers or proof to get it. Which leads me to believe there was not easy access to his mother's guns, cause he wouldn't have went through the ordeal of trying to get one then . And I agree totally mental illness needs to be discussed and more protection for schools, and of course gun control. Like I said I am ALL for stricter laws , that would be great and I think eventually this tragedy will cause there to be. Just a sad situation and just senseless .

 

[Tiff]

Don't you find it interesting that in a country where fire arms are legal that you are more likely to be murdered by something other than a fire arm? We absolutely need limited forms of gun control, but it won't stop determined people from killing. It will definitely stop law abiding people from defending themselves. It will force people to be 100% dependent on the government for protection. That's a scary thought to me.

I don't think we're going to find a common ground here. It makes you feel safer to ban guns. It makes me feel safer to carry one. It works out fairly well then that we live in the places we do.

I can't honestly answer that because I live in a country where it is illegal to carry a gun or have a loaded gun in the house and yet the gun deaths here are far lower than down in the States where it is legal.

 

[NellyLou]

Has anyone reead this yet? https://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother. Written by the mother of a mentally ill 13 year old and how difficult it is to get help for him. While I completely agree that it needs to be more difficult to obtain a gun, this letter has made me realize how important it is to figure out something to do about people like Adam Lanza and this 13 year old. There needs to be more help for them and their families. I have no idea what... It's not like you can justify locking someone in a psychiatric ward forever because they tend to be violent and have outbursts of anger and might do something.