parents who dont vaccinate your babies??

[My_First]

Link are important, because as I read it the amount of women that miscarried was no more that the base 15-20%

That is interesting. It also depends on the gestation of the miscarriage because miscarriages are quoted as between 20% and 50% depending on what you read, but that is first trimester I think. Second trimester loses and 15%-20% would be a big increase, I think.

It was, spontaneous abortions, as a whole. Miscarriages or stillbirths.

 

[BlueHadeda]

I agree that we all want what is best for our babies and that the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of questions to answer, but when it comes to things like MMR, which has been proven to be the most effective way of combating these childhood diseases and almost eradicating them, I have no understanding for non-vaccination.

What a harsh view. Do you realise that it's not even given in all countries? In my country, South Africa, the state only provides a measles vaccination. One at around 9 months, and a booster at 15 months. If you want the MMR for your child, you have to pay for it (and any booster of it), at a cost of around $40-$50. So only a very small percentage of children in my country, gets the MMR.

Secondly, what if you've had another child had an adverse reaction to the MMR? Will you then also say "I have no understanding for non-vaccination"? Or even if it was a family member? Or maybe a close friend?

I had a friend whose child almost died after getting the MMR. He was hospitalised for weeks, and awfully ill. And yes, it was most definitely from the MMR, no doubt about it. 1 in 25000 kids get this reaction from the vaccination. Would you still say you have no understanding for non-vaccination if she refuses to vaccinate any of her other kids with the MMR?

What a harsh view.

So you feel you have the right to blame other parents if their little one dares to infect your child, but you have absolutely no sympathy for their little ones getting reactions to vaccines? Even deadly reactions?

 

[lhancock90]

I trust nothing that doesn't come off a correct medical website. Also its not a"cure" for cancer. There can be no one cure that will cure ALL cancer.

 

[Feronia]

Ack, there are so many issues being debated right now that I'm having a hard time keeping up with them all (and it looks like I'm the only non-vaxer left following this thread). I had a long reply to lots of individual remarks, but I'd rather not try to keep up with this. I only replied to this thread to list my own personal reasons for not vaccinating, not to debate with people who do vaccinate. I understand that this thread is now in the debate section, but it wasn't when I first posted in it.

We can sit here all day nitpicking eachother's points, sources, and examples and it would be absolutely endless. Ultimately, we've already made our decisions so I'm not sure what it would accomplish; I'm certainly not trying to change the minds of people who vaccinate. Anyway, I think I'll respectfully step out of the thread now before this gets even more heated. Take care everyone!

 

[CMarie]

This is a really interesting study on the H1N1 vaccine and miscarriages/stillbirths: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23023030

"Thus, a synergistic fetal toxicity likely resulted from the administration of both the pandemic (A-H1N1) and seasonal influenza vaccines during the 2009/2010 season."

 

[My_First]

This is a really interesting study on the H1N1 vaccine and miscarriages/stillbirths: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23023030

"Thus, a synergistic fetal toxicity likely resulted from the administration of both the pandemic (A-H1N1) and seasonal influenza vaccines during the 2009/2010 season."

I read the Goldman study andif you look at the amounts of 'spontaneous abortions' by number they are no higher than the normal base rate.

 

[Piper84]

I agree that we all want what is best for our babies and that the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of questions to answer, but when it comes to things like MMR, which has been proven to be the most effective way of combating these childhood diseases and almost eradicating them, I have no understanding for non-vaccination.

What a harsh view. Do you realise that it's not even given in all countries? In my country, South Africa, the state only provides a measles vaccination. One at around 9 months, and a booster at 15 months. If you want the MMR for your child, you have to pay for it (and any booster of it), at a cost of around $40-$50. So only a very small percentage of children in my country, gets the MMR.

Secondly, what if you've had another child had an adverse reaction to the MMR? Will you then also say "I have no understanding for non-vaccination"? Or even if it was a family member? Or maybe a close friend?

I had a friend whose child almost died after getting the MMR. He was hospitalised for weeks, and awfully ill. And yes, it was most definitely from the MMR, no doubt about it. 1 in 25000 kids get this reaction from the vaccination. Would you still say you have no understanding for non-vaccination if she refuses to vaccinate any of her other kids with the MMR?

What a harsh view.

So you feel you have the right to blame other parents if their little one dares to infect your child, but you have absolutely no sympathy for their little ones getting reactions to vaccines? Even deadly reactions?

There's nothing harsh about it, seeing as this is a thread asking for opinions on parents who don't vaccinate their babies.

The fact that you live in South Africa has no effect on my views on vaccination. Where I come from, MMR is the norm, free of charge and parents who don't vaccinate their children are in a small minority, but unfortunately a minority that has succeeded in assuring that certain childhood diseases are making a comeback.

You can disagree with me if you like, but my opinions are shared by most parents I encounter and all of the doctors and health workers we've spoken to, so please don't suggest mine is some kind of warped and archaic view.

 

[tinytabby]

I agree with Piper84. I don't think it's a harsh view. I reckon it's what the majority feel.

 

[Natsku]

I agree not a harsh view, its a true view. MMR HAS eradicated native outbreaks of those diseases in my country. Better healthcare, better hygiene, better diet etc had been in my country for decades before the MMR was introduced and they did not get rid of those disease but the vaccine did. That is enough proof to me that vaccines are the best way we have to reduce and hopefully eventually eradicate these diseases everywhere.

 

[LoraLoo]

This is a really interesting study on the H1N1 vaccine and miscarriages/stillbirths: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23023030

"Thus, a synergistic fetal toxicity likely resulted from the administration of both the pandemic (A-H1N1) and seasonal influenza vaccines during the 2009/2010 season."

I read the Goldman study andif you look at the amounts of 'spontaneous abortions' by number they are no higher than the normal base rate.

I agree, and if you look at the Stillbirth rates they are about the same as what they have been over recent years.

 

[CMarie]

I agree that we all want what is best for our babies and that the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of questions to answer, but when it comes to things like MMR, which has been proven to be the most effective way of combating these childhood diseases and almost eradicating them, I have no understanding for non-vaccination.

What a harsh view. Do you realise that it's not even given in all countries? In my country, South Africa, the state only provides a measles vaccination. One at around 9 months, and a booster at 15 months. If you want the MMR for your child, you have to pay for it (and any booster of it), at a cost of around $40-$50. So only a very small percentage of children in my country, gets the MMR.

Secondly, what if you've had another child had an adverse reaction to the MMR? Will you then also say "I have no understanding for non-vaccination"? Or even if it was a family member? Or maybe a close friend?

I had a friend whose child almost died after getting the MMR. He was hospitalised for weeks, and awfully ill. And yes, it was most definitely from the MMR, no doubt about it. 1 in 25000 kids get this reaction from the vaccination. Would you still say you have no understanding for non-vaccination if she refuses to vaccinate any of her other kids with the MMR?

What a harsh view.

So you feel you have the right to blame other parents if their little one dares to infect your child, but you have absolutely no sympathy for their little ones getting reactions to vaccines? Even deadly reactions?

There's nothing harsh about it, seeing as this is a thread asking for opinions on parents who don't vaccinate their babies.

The fact that you live in South Africa has no effect on my views on vaccination. Where I come from, MMR is the norm, free of charge and parents who don't vaccinate their children are in a small minority, but unfortunately a minority that has succeeded in assuring that certain childhood diseases are making a comeback.

You can disagree with me if you like, but my opinions are shared by most parents I encounter and all of the doctors and health workers we've spoken to, so please don't suggest mine is some kind of warped and archaic view.

What about whooping cough? https://vtdigger.org/2012/10/08/90-percent-of-whooping-cough-cases-in-vermont-among-vaccinated-children/ and this case of measles https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303 "We conclude that outbreaks of measles can occur in secondary schools, even when more than 99 percent of the students have been vaccinated and more than 95 percent are immune."

Can you provide a study that shows the minority (parents who don't vaccinate their children) are the cause of these diseases "coming back"?

 

[tinytabby]

Here's one:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120822181234.htm

 

[JleStar]

I agree that we all want what is best for our babies and that the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of questions to answer, but when it comes to things like MMR, which has been proven to be the most effective way of combating these childhood diseases and almost eradicating them, I have no understanding for non-vaccination.

What a harsh view. Do you realise that it's not even given in all countries? In my country, South Africa, the state only provides a measles vaccination. One at around 9 months, and a booster at 15 months. If you want the MMR for your child, you have to pay for it (and any booster of it), at a cost of around $40-$50. So only a very small percentage of children in my country, gets the MMR.

Secondly, what if you've had another child had an adverse reaction to the MMR? Will you then also say "I have no understanding for non-vaccination"? Or even if it was a family member? Or maybe a close friend?

I had a friend whose child almost died after getting the MMR. He was hospitalised for weeks, and awfully ill. And yes, it was most definitely from the MMR, no doubt about it. 1 in 25000 kids get this reaction from the vaccination. Would you still say you have no understanding for non-vaccination if she refuses to vaccinate any of her other kids with the MMR?

What a harsh view.

So you feel you have the right to blame other parents if their little one dares to infect your child, but you have absolutely no sympathy for their little ones getting reactions to vaccines? Even deadly reactions?

There's nothing harsh about it, seeing as this is a thread asking for opinions on parents who don't vaccinate their babies.

The fact that you live in South Africa has no effect on my views on vaccination. Where I come from, MMR is the norm, free of charge and parents who don't vaccinate their children are in a small minority, but unfortunately a minority that has succeeded in assuring that certain childhood diseases are making a comeback.

You can disagree with me if you like, but my opinions are shared by most parents I encounter and all of the doctors and health workers we've spoken to, so please don't suggest mine is some kind of warped and archaic view.

Piper get your facts straight.

 

[Piper84]

What about whooping cough? https://vtdigger.org/2012/10/08/90-percent-of-whooping-cough-cases-in-vermont-among-vaccinated-children/ and this case of measles https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303 "We conclude that outbreaks of measles can occur in secondary schools, even when more than 99 percent of the students have been vaccinated and more than 95 percent are immune."

Can you provide a study that shows the minority (parents who don't vaccinate their children) are the cause of these diseases "coming back"?

https://www.bmj.com/content/333/7574/890 -British Medical Journal
https://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/08/measles-outbreak-hits-18-year-high
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/...ind-biggest-measles-outbreak-in-18-years.html
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19369365
https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/new...-return-as-parents-refuse-vaccines/48414234/1

 

[CMarie]

Here's one:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120822181234.htm

Do you happen to have the case that this article is talking about from 2008? Also, I may be wrong, but the journal reference in this article doesn't talk at all about unvaccinated kids bringing back diseases. All it talks about is the number of public belief exemptions increasing in California schools and the "suggestion" that kindergarden children are being more exposed to disease . . there's no real proof of it though. https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2012.300821

Thanks for posting those other articles, ladies I'm in class right now, but I'll go through them as soon as I can. Did any of you read those 2 links are posted about whooping cough and measles?

 

[Scottish mum]

I think we all need to remember that us ladies live in different countries so it might be different depending on your area x

 

[tinytabby]

CMarie, I read the links you posted. One of the research papers is from 1987 and the other says it's best to vaccinate.

 

[CMarie]

What about whooping cough? https://vtdigger.org/2012/10/08/90-percent-of-whooping-cough-cases-in-vermont-among-vaccinated-children/ and this case of measles https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303 "We conclude that outbreaks of measles can occur in secondary schools, even when more than 99 percent of the students have been vaccinated and more than 95 percent are immune."

Can you provide a study that shows the minority (parents who don't vaccinate their children) are the cause of these diseases "coming back"?

https://www.bmj.com/content/333/7574/890 -British Medical Journal
https://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/08/measles-outbreak-hits-18-year-high
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/...ind-biggest-measles-outbreak-in-18-years.html
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19369365
https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/new...-return-as-parents-refuse-vaccines/48414234/1

Alright so, with regards to the measles outbreak in England and Wales, there are a few things I want to point out.

1) Of the 2016 cases, no where does it ever specify how many of those cases are in unvaccinated children. I would also like to point out that no where does it specifically that this outbreak started because of an unvaccinated child.

2) In every article I've read on this, no where does it say that this outbreak started specifically from an unvaccinated teenager. Yes of course they are able to catch measles, just like vaccinated people can too, but that doesn't mean that this outbreak is solely because of them. I haven't read that anywhere. In every article I read, it says that these unvaccinated teens are more at risk . . not that they are causing the outbreak.

3) "Almost 70 per cent of cases were in children under 18 and the majority were under five." Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/measles-cases-at-18year-high-as-children-are-left-unvaccinated-8486573.html Again, this verifiest that we do not know that this outbreak started with an unvaccinated teen. Most of these cases are happening in children under 5 despite the fact that MMR vaccines are being given at a record high because kids under 5 are still developing their immune systems . . they aren't as strong as most teenagers' or adults' immune systems.

4) From what I've read, the outbreak is largely happening in Sussex where one in seven children do not get vaccinated. Again, this is no way shows that this measles outbreak started because of an unvaccinated child . . this is merely just showing that 1 in 7 kids aren't vaccinated. I also want to point out how contageous measles is whether or not you're vaccinated.

I think that a lot more information needs to be gathered on this outbreak before anyone can say that unvaccinated children/teens are causing it. Again, the only thing I've read about unvaccinated children/teens in these articles is that they are more susceptible to contracting measles than vaccinated children/teens. I think the titles in most of these articles are actually really misleading IMO.

With regards to the BMJ study you posted, I didn't find anything again that specifically states that unvaccinated children are causing these diseases. Unless I make an account on their site I can't read the whole study, but from what I have read, this is the only thing I found regarding unvaccinated children "Cases are occurring in inadequately vaccinated children and in young adults, leading to concerns that endemic measles could re-emerge." which I'm assuming derives from these numbers "449 confirmed cases to the end of May 2006 compared with 77 in 2005, and the first death since 1992". Again, from what I can see, it doesn't ever state how many of the 449 cases are actually in unvaccinated children/young adults, only that they are occuring in them and we already know how contagious measles are. The only other part of it I was able to read that I wanted to comment on was this: "Measles remains a leading cause of vaccine preventable death worldwide. In 2004 an estimated 454 000 deaths were due to measles. Mortality from measles is highest in children aged less than 12 months." These 454,000 deaths are worldwide, and death is highest in children under 12 months of age. Again, I can't read the whole study, but this doesn't talk about the living conditions, hygiene, etc of these people, especially the babies. There's a lot to take into consideration here when we're talking about the spread of disease besides just vaccinations.

With regards to the last article, the one about the outbreak in the U.S, these are the comments I wanted to make:

1) "From 1991 to 2004, the number of unvaccinated children in states allowing philosophical exemptions more than doubled, found a study in Journal of the American Medical Association. Granting exceptions to vaccine requirements has helped foster outbreaks, research shows. " Yes, more exemptions are being made by parents, but this article never linked the "research" showing that granting exceptions to vaccine requirements fosters outbreaks.

2) "In some counties in Washington state, for example, up to one in four children are exempt from vaccine requirements, according to a 2009 study in The New England Journal of Medicine. One of these under-vaccinated communities, Vashon Island, near Seattle, has been hit with repeated outbreaks of whooping cough, Offit says" This article never said how often these repeated outbreaks were, but I wanted to point out that whooping cough comes and gos naturally every 3-5 years: "Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years."

 

[CMarie]

CMarie, I read the links you posted. One of the research papers is from 1987 and the other says it's best to vaccinate.

I didn't realize the year was relevant? From what I read, the kids still had their 2 doses of the MMR vaccine. As for the other article, I posted it just to show that there can be higher cases of whooping cough (or any disease really) in vaccinated children as well.

 

[Natsku]

CMarie - what do you think of the example in my country - measles, mumps and rubella practically eliminated (natively, not accounting for incidences deriving from abroad)?
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199411243312101

Also interesting in that link was that no death or chronic illness was attributed to the vaccine and it was found to be safe even in the case of severe allergies.