parents who dont vaccinate your babies??

[Natsku]

Another interesting point from the study "Small outbreaks of measles occurred in different regions, almost exclusively among the unvaccinated age groups. Often the index patient in such outbreaks had recently traveled abroad. Each year about 1 million Finns, one fifth of the population, visit another country. In an outbreak in 1988 and 1989, when there were 1748 confirmed cases of measles, there were far fewer among the 2-to-12-year-olds then covered by the program than among the unvaccinated older children"
And "The difficulty of making the diagnosis of rubella on clinical grounds renders traditional reporting unreliable. Nevertheless, no vaccinated patient was found among 423 with laboratory-confirmed rubella in 1984 through 1986, including some children too old (11 years or more) to have been vaccinated during the program"

 

[Piper84]

Alright so, with regards to the measles outbreak in England and Wales, there are a few things I want to point out.

1) Of the 2016 cases, no where does it ever specify how many of those cases are in unvaccinated children. I would also like to point out that no where does it specifically that this outbreak started because of an unvaccinated child.

2) In every article I've read on this, no where does it say that this outbreak started specifically from an unvaccinated teenager. Yes of course they are able to catch measles, just like vaccinated people can too, but that doesn't mean that this outbreak is solely because of them. I haven't read that anywhere. In every article I read, it says that these unvaccinated teens are more at risk . . not that they are causing the outbreak.

3) "Almost 70 per cent of cases were in children under 18 and the majority were under five." Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/measles-cases-at-18year-high-as-children-are-left-unvaccinated-8486573.html Again, this verifiest that we do not know that this outbreak started with an unvaccinated teen. Most of these cases are happening in children under 5 despite the fact that MMR vaccines are being given at a record high because kids under 5 are still developing their immune systems . . they aren't as strong as most teenagers' or adults' immune systems.

4) From what I've read, the outbreak is largely happening in Sussex where one in seven children do not get vaccinated. Again, this is no way shows that this measles outbreak started because of an unvaccinated child . . this is merely just showing that 1 in 7 kids aren't vaccinated. I also want to point out how contageous measles is whether or not you're vaccinated.

I think that a lot more information needs to be gathered on this outbreak before anyone can say that unvaccinated children/teens are causing it. Again, the only thing I've read about unvaccinated children/teens in these articles is that they are more susceptible to contracting measles than vaccinated children/teens. I think the titles in most of these articles are actually really misleading IMO.

With regards to the BMJ study you posted, I didn't find anything again that specifically states that unvaccinated children are causing these diseases. Unless I make an account on their site I can't read the whole study, but from what I have read, this is the only thing I found regarding unvaccinated children "Cases are occurring in inadequately vaccinated children and in young adults, leading to concerns that endemic measles could re-emerge." which I'm assuming derives from these numbers "449 confirmed cases to the end of May 2006 compared with 77 in 2005, and the first death since 1992". Again, from what I can see, it doesn't ever state how many of the 449 cases are actually in unvaccinated children/young adults, only that they are occuring in them and we already know how contagious measles are. The only other part of it I was able to read that I wanted to comment on was this: "Measles remains a leading cause of vaccine preventable death worldwide. In 2004 an estimated 454 000 deaths were due to measles. Mortality from measles is highest in children aged less than 12 months." These 454,000 deaths are worldwide, and death is highest in children under 12 months of age. Again, I can't read the whole study, but this doesn't talk about the living conditions, hygiene, etc of these people, especially the babies. There's a lot to take into consideration here when we're talking about the spread of disease besides just vaccinations.

With regards to the last article, the one about the outbreak in the U.S, these are the comments I wanted to make:

1) "From 1991 to 2004, the number of unvaccinated children in states allowing philosophical exemptions more than doubled, found a study in Journal of the American Medical Association. Granting exceptions to vaccine requirements has helped foster outbreaks, research shows. " Yes, more exemptions are being made by parents, but this article never linked the "research" showing that granting exceptions to vaccine requirements fosters outbreaks.

2) "In some counties in Washington state, for example, up to one in four children are exempt from vaccine requirements, according to a 2009 study in The New England Journal of Medicine. One of these under-vaccinated communities, Vashon Island, near Seattle, has been hit with repeated outbreaks of whooping cough, Offit says" This article never said how often these repeated outbreaks were, but I wanted to point out that whooping cough comes and gos naturally every 3-5 years: "Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years."

It's really not that complicated. The increase in these preventable childhood diseases in the past few years in populations where rates had been steadily falling is directly correlated to decreasing uptake of the MMR vaccine.

 

[CMarie]

Alright so, with regards to the measles outbreak in England and Wales, there are a few things I want to point out.

1) Of the 2016 cases, no where does it ever specify how many of those cases are in unvaccinated children. I would also like to point out that no where does it specifically that this outbreak started because of an unvaccinated child.

2) In every article I've read on this, no where does it say that this outbreak started specifically from an unvaccinated teenager. Yes of course they are able to catch measles, just like vaccinated people can too, but that doesn't mean that this outbreak is solely because of them. I haven't read that anywhere. In every article I read, it says that these unvaccinated teens are more at risk . . not that they are causing the outbreak.

3) "Almost 70 per cent of cases were in children under 18 and the majority were under five." Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/measles-cases-at-18year-high-as-children-are-left-unvaccinated-8486573.html Again, this verifiest that we do not know that this outbreak started with an unvaccinated teen. Most of these cases are happening in children under 5 despite the fact that MMR vaccines are being given at a record high because kids under 5 are still developing their immune systems . . they aren't as strong as most teenagers' or adults' immune systems.

4) From what I've read, the outbreak is largely happening in Sussex where one in seven children do not get vaccinated. Again, this is no way shows that this measles outbreak started because of an unvaccinated child . . this is merely just showing that 1 in 7 kids aren't vaccinated. I also want to point out how contageous measles is whether or not you're vaccinated.

I think that a lot more information needs to be gathered on this outbreak before anyone can say that unvaccinated children/teens are causing it. Again, the only thing I've read about unvaccinated children/teens in these articles is that they are more susceptible to contracting measles than vaccinated children/teens. I think the titles in most of these articles are actually really misleading IMO.

With regards to the BMJ study you posted, I didn't find anything again that specifically states that unvaccinated children are causing these diseases. Unless I make an account on their site I can't read the whole study, but from what I have read, this is the only thing I found regarding unvaccinated children "Cases are occurring in inadequately vaccinated children and in young adults, leading to concerns that endemic measles could re-emerge." which I'm assuming derives from these numbers "449 confirmed cases to the end of May 2006 compared with 77 in 2005, and the first death since 1992". Again, from what I can see, it doesn't ever state how many of the 449 cases are actually in unvaccinated children/young adults, only that they are occuring in them and we already know how contagious measles are. The only other part of it I was able to read that I wanted to comment on was this: "Measles remains a leading cause of vaccine preventable death worldwide. In 2004 an estimated 454 000 deaths were due to measles. Mortality from measles is highest in children aged less than 12 months." These 454,000 deaths are worldwide, and death is highest in children under 12 months of age. Again, I can't read the whole study, but this doesn't talk about the living conditions, hygiene, etc of these people, especially the babies. There's a lot to take into consideration here when we're talking about the spread of disease besides just vaccinations.

With regards to the last article, the one about the outbreak in the U.S, these are the comments I wanted to make:

1) "From 1991 to 2004, the number of unvaccinated children in states allowing philosophical exemptions more than doubled, found a study in Journal of the American Medical Association. Granting exceptions to vaccine requirements has helped foster outbreaks, research shows. " Yes, more exemptions are being made by parents, but this article never linked the "research" showing that granting exceptions to vaccine requirements fosters outbreaks.

2) "In some counties in Washington state, for example, up to one in four children are exempt from vaccine requirements, according to a 2009 study in The New England Journal of Medicine. One of these under-vaccinated communities, Vashon Island, near Seattle, has been hit with repeated outbreaks of whooping cough, Offit says" This article never said how often these repeated outbreaks were, but I wanted to point out that whooping cough comes and gos naturally every 3-5 years: "Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years."

It's really not that complicated. The increase in these preventable childhood diseases in the past few years in populations where rates had been steadily falling is directly correlated to decreasing uptake of the MMR vaccine.

It's complicated for those of us who choose not to vaccinate our kids when accusations get thrown around about our kids causing disease outbreaks when (at least in everything I've read) that's simply not the case.

Thank you for your link, Natsku I'll read through it and post back when I have time tonight.

 

[Piper84]

It's complicated for those of us who choose not to vaccinate our kids when accusations get thrown around about our kids causing disease outbreaks when (at least in everything I've read) that's simply not the case.

Check the facts again. Unvaccinated or inadequately vaccinated children are the reason for recent increased cases of preventable childhood diseases.

 

[CMarie]

It's complicated for those of us who choose not to vaccinate our kids when accusations get thrown around about our kids causing disease outbreaks when (at least in everything I've read) that's simply not the case.

Check the facts again. Unvaccinated or inadequately vaccinated children are the reason for recent increased cases of preventable childhood diseases.

Please provide a study that proves this.

 

[Natsku]

It's complicated for those of us who choose not to vaccinate our kids when accusations get thrown around about our kids causing disease outbreaks when (at least in everything I've read) that's simply not the case.

Check the facts again. Unvaccinated or inadequately vaccinated children are the reason for recent increased cases of preventable childhood diseases.

Please provide a study that proves this.

My study shows that almost all incidences of certain preventable diseases were in unvaccinated children (what was interesting to me though that they didn't apparently spread much amongst vaccinated children unlike in other countries, wonder why that is)

 

[BlueHadeda]

I agree that we all want what is best for our babies and that the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of questions to answer, but when it comes to things like MMR, which has been proven to be the most effective way of combating these childhood diseases and almost eradicating them, I have no understanding for non-vaccination.

What a harsh view. Do you realise that it's not even given in all countries? In my country, South Africa, the state only provides a measles vaccination. One at around 9 months, and a booster at 15 months. If you want the MMR for your child, you have to pay for it (and any booster of it), at a cost of around $40-$50. So only a very small percentage of children in my country, gets the MMR.

Secondly, what if you've had another child had an adverse reaction to the MMR? Will you then also say "I have no understanding for non-vaccination"? Or even if it was a family member? Or maybe a close friend?

I had a friend whose child almost died after getting the MMR. He was hospitalised for weeks, and awfully ill. And yes, it was most definitely from the MMR, no doubt about it. 1 in 25000 kids get this reaction from the vaccination. Would you still say you have no understanding for non-vaccination if she refuses to vaccinate any of her other kids with the MMR?

What a harsh view.

So you feel you have the right to blame other parents if their little one dares to infect your child, but you have absolutely no sympathy for their little ones getting reactions to vaccines? Even deadly reactions?

There's nothing harsh about it, seeing as this is a thread asking for opinions on parents who don't vaccinate their babies.
The fact that you live in South Africa has no effect on my views on vaccination. Where I come from, MMR is the norm, free of charge and parents who don't vaccinate their children are in a small minority, but unfortunately a minority that has succeeded in assuring that certain childhood diseases are making a comeback.

You can disagree with me if you like, but my opinions are shared by most parents I encounter and all of the doctors and health workers we've spoken to, so please don't suggest mine is some kind of warped and archaic view.

How can you say there's nothing harsh about your view? You said "I have no understanding for non-vaccination". You did not answer any of the questions I posed. So again, I ask you. Would you have sympathy (thus understanding) for a mom whose first child had a life-threatening reaction to the MMR, if she chooses NOT to give her 2nd child the MMR? If you answer no, then I stand by my point...your view is harsh.

And for those that agreed with Piper, I think your views are just as harsh (unsympathetic with a mom who went through something like almost loosing a child).

Secondly, you said: "seeing as this is a thread asking for opinions on parents who don't vaccinate their babies". I beg to differ on this point with you. The OP asked for opinions FROM parents who don't vaccinate. Not opinions ON parents who don't vaccinate....

 

[tinytabby]

This thread became a debate thread. I'm glad because I don't think only the anti-vaccination view should be discussed.

I am sympathetic to those who don't vaccinate their children when there is a valid medical reason not to.

I am against non-vaccination for lifestyle reasons. People who do this are pulling down the herd immunity that protects everyone else. They are putting everyone in danger, because as you anti-vaxers are so fond of pointing out, vaccinations don't always work.

 

[pinklightbulb]

Piper, what about delayed vaccination? I will be starting my son after his 3rd birthday next week.

 

[LoraLoo]

I agree that we all want what is best for our babies and that the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of questions to answer, but when it comes to things like MMR, which has been proven to be the most effective way of combating these childhood diseases and almost eradicating them, I have no understanding for non-vaccination.

What a harsh view. Do you realise that it's not even given in all countries? In my country, South Africa, the state only provides a measles vaccination. One at around 9 months, and a booster at 15 months. If you want the MMR for your child, you have to pay for it (and any booster of it), at a cost of around $40-$50. So only a very small percentage of children in my country, gets the MMR.

Secondly, what if you've had another child had an adverse reaction to the MMR? Will you then also say "I have no understanding for non-vaccination"? Or even if it was a family member? Or maybe a close friend?

I had a friend whose child almost died after getting the MMR. He was hospitalised for weeks, and awfully ill. And yes, it was most definitely from the MMR, no doubt about it. 1 in 25000 kids get this reaction from the vaccination. Would you still say you have no understanding for non-vaccination if she refuses to vaccinate any of her other kids with the MMR?

What a harsh view.

So you feel you have the right to blame other parents if their little one dares to infect your child, but you have absolutely no sympathy for their little ones getting reactions to vaccines? Even deadly reactions?

There's nothing harsh about it, seeing as this is a thread asking for opinions on parents who don't vaccinate their babies.
The fact that you live in South Africa has no effect on my views on vaccination. Where I come from, MMR is the norm, free of charge and parents who don't vaccinate their children are in a small minority, but unfortunately a minority that has succeeded in assuring that certain childhood diseases are making a comeback.

You can disagree with me if you like, but my opinions are shared by most parents I encounter and all of the doctors and health workers we've spoken to, so please don't suggest mine is some kind of warped and archaic view.

How can you say there's nothing harsh about your view? You said "I have no understanding for non-vaccination". You did not answer any of the questions I posed. So again, I ask you. Would you have sympathy (thus understanding) for a mom whose first child had a life-threatening reaction to the MMR, if she chooses NOT to give her 2nd child the MMR? If you answer no, then I stand by my point...your view is harsh.

And for those that agreed with Piper, I think your views are just as harsh (unsympathetic with a mom who went through something like almost loosing a child).

Secondly, you said: "seeing as this is a thread asking for opinions on parents who don't vaccinate their babies". I beg to differ on this point with you. The OP asked for opinions FROM parents who don't vaccinate. Not opinions ON parents who don't vaccinate....

What about sympathy for the Mums that actually HAVE lost a child to Childhood diseases? A disease that may have been preventable? A disease that may have been passed on by a None vaccinated Child? Its not all black and white.

 

[pinklightbulb]

I have nothing but sympathy for any mum who loses a child, no matter how the life has been lost. It doesn't mean I agree with or like vaccination though. I'm being given no choice but to do it, though my views remain the same.

 

[robinator]

2) "In some counties in Washington state, for example, up to one in four children are exempt from vaccine requirements, according to a 2009 study in The New England Journal of Medicine. One of these under-vaccinated communities, Vashon Island, near Seattle, has been hit with repeated outbreaks of whooping cough, Offit says" This article never said how often these repeated outbreaks were, but I wanted to point out that whooping cough comes and gos naturally every 3-5 years: "Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years."

I live in Washington State, but not on Vashon Island (not many people do, lol). Anyway, both my neighbor's kids (2 & 5) got whooping cough last summer, and both had been vaccinated against it. It was a milder case, as they had been vaccinated, but it was still brutal. I hate to think how much worse it could have been.

If you are aware of the cycles of whooping cough/pertussis, why would you not vaccinate against it? After all, it's not an issue of if, but when.....

 

[CMarie]

2) "In some counties in Washington state, for example, up to one in four children are exempt from vaccine requirements, according to a 2009 study in The New England Journal of Medicine. One of these under-vaccinated communities, Vashon Island, near Seattle, has been hit with repeated outbreaks of whooping cough, Offit says" This article never said how often these repeated outbreaks were, but I wanted to point out that whooping cough comes and gos naturally every 3-5 years: "Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years."

I live in Washington State, but not on Vashon Island (not many people do, lol). Anyway, both my neighbor's kids (2 & 5) got whooping cough last summer, and both had been vaccinated against it. It was a milder case, as they had been vaccinated, but it was still brutal. I hate to think how much worse it could have been.

If you are aware of the cycles of whooping cough/pertussis, why would you not vaccinate against it? After all, it's not an issue of if, but when.....

I suppose my reasoning behind is that if I'm going to get it anyways, I'd rather not get an unnecessary vaccine It's unnecessary IMO anyways. Plus, it's not just one vaccine anymore. You need boosters in order for it to be effective.

Natsku, I'm still reading through your study. Sorry!

 

[LoraLoo]

I have nothing but sympathy for any mum who loses a child, no matter how the life has been lost. It doesn't mean I agree with or like vaccination though. I'm being given no choice but to do it, though my views remain the same.

In the same way other posters dont agree with not vaccinating a child.

 

[robinator]

CMarie - I've been vaccinated against it and have never had it .

I suppose it depends on our individual immune systems, but if it's possible to avoid an illness (especially one that is life-threatening to small children/infants) then I'm going to do my part in avoiding it.

But I respect that you see things differently

 

[Natsku]

2) "In some counties in Washington state, for example, up to one in four children are exempt from vaccine requirements, according to a 2009 study in The New England Journal of Medicine. One of these under-vaccinated communities, Vashon Island, near Seattle, has been hit with repeated outbreaks of whooping cough, Offit says" This article never said how often these repeated outbreaks were, but I wanted to point out that whooping cough comes and gos naturally every 3-5 years: "Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years."

I live in Washington State, but not on Vashon Island (not many people do, lol). Anyway, both my neighbor's kids (2 & 5) got whooping cough last summer, and both had been vaccinated against it. It was a milder case, as they had been vaccinated, but it was still brutal. I hate to think how much worse it could have been.

If you are aware of the cycles of whooping cough/pertussis, why would you not vaccinate against it? After all, it's not an issue of if, but when.....

I suppose my reasoning behind is that if I'm going to get it anyways, I'd rather not get an unnecessary vaccine It's unnecessary IMO anyways. Plus, it's not just one vaccine anymore. You need boosters in order for it to be effective.

Natsku, I'm still reading through your study. Sorry!

Its ok, its a lot to read through

My dad got whooping cough recently. It was horrible and he's an adult, although I guess his heart issues made it worse for him. He had to take a lot of time off work and was ill for months because of it

 

[BlueHadeda]

What about sympathy for the Mums that actually HAVE lost a child to Childhood diseases? A disease that may have been preventable? A disease that may have been passed on by a None vaccinated Child? Its not all black and white.

That's my whole point, LoraLoo. I was immensely surprised that not only Piper, but some that agreed with her(!!), thought it okay to say they have no understanding for non-vaccination of the MMR. In my opinion: I have sympathy (understanding) for ANY mom doing WHATEVER she deems right, when she has lost or almost lost a child. I will support that mom in whatever decision she makes, to keep her baby(ies) safe in the future. Be it vaccinating, or not vaccinating. That's why I said Piper's view is harsh, and why I couldn't believe people agreed with her so openly!!

To you personally. I am incredibly sad about your baby girl, and sorry for your loss. Every time I see a post of you, I look at her beautiful little face, and I can't imagine the pain you have. It's fear about diseases like what your little girl had, that makes me vaccinate (though I delay some, and decline some completely). I live in a 3rd world country, and too many babies die from diseases here. It's very, very sad.

 

[LoraLoo]

What about sympathy for the Mums that actually HAVE lost a child to Childhood diseases? A disease that may have been preventable? A disease that may have been passed on by a None vaccinated Child? Its not all black and white.

That's my whole point, LoraLoo. I was immensely surprised that not only Piper, but some that agreed with her(!!), thought it okay to say they have no understanding for non-vaccination of the MMR. In my opinion: I have sympathy (understanding) for ANY mom doing WHATEVER she deems right, when she has lost or almost lost a child. I will support that mom in whatever decision she makes, to keep her baby(ies) safe in the future. Be it vaccinating, or not vaccinating. That's why I said Piper's view is harsh, and why I couldn't believe people agreed with her so openly!!

To you personally. I am incredibly sad about your baby girl, and sorry for your loss. Every time I see a post of you, I look at her beautiful little face, and I can't imagine the pain you have. It's fear about diseases like what your little girl had, that makes me vaccinate (though I delay some, and decline some completely). I live in a 3rd world country, and too many babies die from diseases here. It's very, very sad.

Thank You

Eve died from the B strain which there is no vaccine for in the UK. She would have caught the bacteria from somebody, but it couldnt be prevented. However, if it was the C strain, there is a vaccine for that. If she had caught that from someone who had not been vaccinated I would never forgive them.

 

[pinklightbulb]

I have nothing but sympathy for any mum who loses a child, no matter how the life has been lost. It doesn't mean I agree with or like vaccination though. I'm being given no choice but to do it, though my views remain the same.

In the same way other posters dont agree with not vaccinating a child.

And I respect that.

 

[JleStar]

It's complicated for those of us who choose not to vaccinate our kids when accusations get thrown around about our kids causing disease outbreaks when (at least in everything I've read) that's simply not the case.

Check the facts again. Unvaccinated or inadequately vaccinated children are the reason for recent increased cases of preventable childhood diseases.

Not true!