Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[NotNic]

Thanks for the hugs Sunnie! Still battling with early starts, though mostly they are 6ish again. At least with the lighter mornings it doesn't feel sooo bad.

Bananaz - you are around a WW. The next one is 46 wks which tends to start from 42wks. I haven't read any further than that though. I like to read once I've hit it otherwise all the WW stages feel a bit relentless.

Boo I've taken your HV's advise and have dropped Finlay's pm bottle so he's now down to 2 a day. I'd been considering it for awhile but felt sad as he enjoys that one. He weighed 22lbs 11oz three weeks ago and feels soo heavy. He's a very good eater too but started to p*ss about on the other two feeds. He was playing with the evening bottle and was taking a good 15-20 mins to drink 6 ozs. So far its been okay. He doesn't miss the bottle just yet but he's starving by dinner. He is also downing his evening milk which means 7.30pm bedtimes are back. Yay!

Sweet dreams mummies and babies xx

 

[Noelle610]

Hi girls, I missed a lot!

Sunnie, I think your LO is ready to transition to 2 naps. I'd do 2.5 hours awake in the AM and then 3 or 3.5 between the first nap and second nap. You may need to do an early bedtime for a few weeks until she adjusts, but Charlotte now usually has about 4 hours between her last nap and bedtime. Sometimes more. You will probably see those naps lengthen as well. Yay for STTN!

Boo, I really hope your plan works! Keep us posted!

MiniKiwi, I'm thrilled that you got a STTN. Long may it continue!

Bananaz, I saved you for last because I'm right there with you We're going through this very whiny, need to be held, never happy phase. It's really frustrating and trying my patience.

Not sure how our night will be. C is sick again with a bad cold DH and I are supposed to go away tomorrow night and not sure if we can yet...

 

[socitycourty]

Hadley is also in a whiny, clingy phase. She is always following me if I try to walk away, she sccreamed at the top of her lungs last night for 5 minutes while I did the dishes...she was standing at the baby gate 6 feet away.

I was wondering if she'd cut another tooth but so far nothing. Her sleep remains......well fucked. LOL

 

[socitycourty]

I just had to say I was laughing to myself when I "refer" people to this thread,

 

[gaiagirl]

Wow what a FAIL of an evening! We have friends visiting from out of town with twin 7 month old girls so it's been a very hectic day!

So my LO had his last nap (of 3) from 3:30-5:30 and I thought if do an 8-8:30 bedtime. All goes well and down he goes at 8:30...only to wake crying 10 min later. Go in and find he has spat up all over himself So calm and clean and retry...nooooot easy to put down now! Eventually I send DH in and he goes hysterical and by 9:30 he is way overtired and losin it. Annnnd finally he is now asleep beside me in my bed at 10:30. So yahhhhh, fun night so far!

 

[Larkspur]

Ladies... hello again. I haven't posted too much lately because the thought alone exhausts me. More on that soon. In the meantime:

Gaiagirl Eeeek, hope the night improves! You'd think after such busy days, they'd be exhausted enough to sleep well, but no, it usually works the other way round, huh?

Socitycourty and Bananaz I hope the whine stops soon... might I recommend a little wine of your own to help cope?

Noelle I hope Charlotte feels better soon! I live in fear of the first cold... I've been incredibly lucky so far and Rafe has never been properly sick, just had a tiny little cough for a few days.

NotNic Rafe is about the same size as Finlay, it's back-breaking, huh? I swear he is made of solid lead through the centre.

Boo fingers crossed for a good night for you!

MiniKiwi great to hear you got a decent night in.

Sunnie My LO quite often does three 30-minute naps, though he's been getting better. Would Seren be dropping a nap? Seems early though, huh?

Shadowy Oh dear, early morning poos are a special treat, aren't they? We've had a couple of those since Rafe moved to solids, although he's only on 1-2 meals a day. My only saving grace is that OH has the first nappy change shift, so I usually miss the mess, ha ha.

Okay, this was my catch-up post, stand by for my very long question post.

 

[Larkspur]

Okay. So after hitting the four-month sleep regression bang on the day of four-months (this is one punctual baby, he was born on his due date too!), we are still up 4-8 times every night. Usually 6-8. I am ALL. PLAYED. OUT. at this point. Something needs to change, all suggestions gratefully received.

Here's the lowdown.

Big baby, 21 pounds. Breastfed. Started solids at six months, now on 1-2 meals a day, lunch some days + dinner every day (in the forlorn hope it would help him sleep better). TBH I am thinking about switching dinner to breakfast as I actually think he might be having indigestion through the wee hours. He nurses to sleep every time, usually takes about 10-15 minutes. When I put him in his cot he's 'asleep', though only very lightly, and usually sighs or shifts around a bit.

Routine
6-7am LO wakes for day
Breastfed around every two hours through the day
9am first nap, 45mins most days, 1.5 hours if I'm lucky
Second nap 2-2.5 hours after wakeup, usually 45 minutes long
12-1ish Lunch before or after second nap, depending on timing
Third nap around 3.30-4pm, half an hour to 45 minutes
5ish Dinner, bath
Bedtime at 7pm

Thereafter, he wakes up every 45-70 minutes until around 10.30-11.30 (sometimes earlier) and then does a 2-3 hour shift, then wakes again every hour until dawn. After the second one-hour wakeup, he becomes hard to put back down in his cot, so I usually put him in bed with me. Of course, I don't sleep too well this way.

Most times he wakes up, he takes a full feed. Sometimes he will be resettled with just a cuddle (occasionally a minute or so of comfort-suckling, but it is very rare that he will ever be resettled with just patting in his cot (which is right next to my side of the bed).

I'm actually coping reasonably well during the day, but my evenings are non-existent, and I get evening terrors thinking of the night to come. The first couple of hours of the day are the worst bit, that's when I feel most exhausted and teary.

I don't want to do CC or CIO. I realise I will probably have to wean him off the nursing-to-sleep, though I love doing this for naps and bedtime. Is it possible to night wean without stopping nursing to sleep? Is it safe for a baby that takes full feeds (he's big, so the HV told me he 'should' be able to sleep through, but that seems intuitively wrong to me, like bigger babies would need more fuel than smaller ones)?

Any thoughts on any aspect of this? If the regression is usually something you have to wait out, is this not an incredibly long regression? Can I help it end? Should I even try?

ETA: Other details - I am an obsessed data tracker and by the app I use, he seems to get about 12-13.5 hours of sleep total per day. This seems short compared to the charts I see, but he doesn't seem overtired. He's extremely good-natured and rarely scratchy, doesn't often show sleep cues, and he doesn't usually wake from his naps crying - he just wakes up and looks around the room and eventually starts making 'Eh, eh' noises.

 

[Boo44]

NotNic that's very interesting! Jack weighed 22lb 1oz last wk! Every day when I first get out of bed I feel like a creaky old woman with a sore back and achey arms! He's soooo bloody heavy. And long. And his 3 little friends all his age weigh around 18lb so I feel like I've bred a monster! Lol. We dropped the 3rd bottle yesterday and last night he took a full 8oz before bed in 10 mins which is great. Like Finlay, he'd gotten to the stage where he took max 5oz before bed over 30 mins. He also enjoyed his aft bottle but hopefully this will help in some way

Larkspur - ugh 6-8 times a night is awful. I empathise with the awful evening dread, and have also been known to be extremely emotional when I first get up! This sleep stuff is actually torture


Well..
We had a shocking night! But not for reasons I may have expected. You may remember last month jack was given an inhaler during a nasty chesty cold. Well this wk he's had a cold with a very mild cough, nothing to affect him at all in the day so far. Then last night omg!!! Woke up to him coughing intermittently at 3.45am. Now I'm one of these people that once I've heard that very first noise that's me awake. So he proceeded to cough almost back-to-back coughs until 6am!!! It was horrendous. Jack wasn't even awake but we sure were . We tried everything, cough syrup, calpol, olbas oil, raising mattress, patting his back. Nothing helped. He went quiet between 6 and 6.40 then started again

I feel like death now and soooo disappointed! There is always something

 

[MiniKiwi]

The same day that we started the 7pm bedtime, we also started sleeping with the lamp on in our room. I just thought LO could be afraid of the dark. So I guess our success could also be due to that. Or both. Either way, I know when you get no sleep, you'll try anything so thought I'd mention it for any of you with LO's who sleep in dark rooms. It might be worth a try

 

[Noelle610]

Crap night here. Still sick. Lots of wakings. Feel like death too Boo!

Larkspur, I read over your post a few times. I honestly think your schedule looks fine. Those 45 minute naps are relatively normal when you're on three naps. Once you transition to two and the awake times in between them increase, you will likely see them lengthen so no need to worry.

Honestly, I do think your little man is waking frequently because he has a nurse to sleep association. When he inevitably wakes at night, he needs to nurse to go back down. I would try some gentle sleep training. Do nursing first in your bedtime routine rather than last and put him down awake. You don't have to do CIO - you can soothe him while he's in his crib. I think it will really help. I'd do whatever you need to do to preserve daytime sleep in the meantime. Nurse to sleep and get those naps - a different part of the brain is responsible for daytime sleep, so it won't be confusing for him.

 

[bananaz]

Larkspur - The fact that he is waking so often and taking full feeds sounds like you may have a few issues: 1) he has a sucking-to-sleep association, 2) his body is accustomed to taking in a significant percentage of its calories at night, and 3) the amount of fluids he's taking in at night is keeping his digestive system stimulated and that's likely disrupting his sleep as well.

To answer your question, it is possible to night wean without stopping nursing to sleep for some babies (I still nurse my LO at bedtime and she only has one feed a night), but I agree with Noelle that putting him down awake is a critical first step. If moving his routine around is too much you might try just nursing him until he's drowsy, or nursing him all the way but then rousing him a little before you put him down.

Just getting him to settle in the crib should reduce the number of wakings, but given how much he's drinking at night I'm guessing that you're also going to need to do real night weaning. I'm a fan of Ferber's method for this since it's very gradual and gentle. The general idea is that each night you reduce the length of the feeds by a minute while also increasing the minimum time between feedings by a half hour. So if he normally nurses for 10 minutes every hour, the first night you'd do 9-minute feeds a minimum of 1.5 hours apart, then the next night you'd do 8-minute feeds 2 hours apart, etc. If he's fussing before it's time for his next feed then you can pat or rock him or whatever it takes to settle him (might be easier for your OH to handle that part).

One way or the other it's probably going to be rough at first but I think if you're consistent you're likely to see results within a week

 

[Shadowy Lady]

I was gone for 2 nights and there's so much to catch up on...it does sound like a lot of babies (Charlotte, Jack, Elsie and Hadly) have had crap nights Is the bad sleep contagious or what? Oh wait no Seren and Mia sttn so congrats Sunnie and Miniwiki

Larkspur - honestly, I think the nurse to sleep turns into habits for babies and hence they wake up wanting to be nursed to sleep again. What we did was to replace the last nurse before bedtime (at 6:30 pm) with a bottle. So she goes down awake and puts herself to sleep. She did start waking up a lot less since we made that change and went from 3 wakeups to one and then dropped the last feed a couple of weeks ago. Now she sttn but does sometimes poop at around 4 am lol!

Sofia has a cold today, noooooo! I agree Boo, there's always something! I'm kinda worried about tonight already

Last night was ok. She slept through till another pooping episode again at 5 am. I just give up on the poop issue already! The main issue was that I was in an "almost accident" on Friday. Someone almost drove their car into mine at the red light coz they didn't stop on time. So I did too quick a shoulder check to change to my next lane and avoid him and have since been suffering with a very stiff neck/shoulder. Pretty much for the past two nights I wake up everytime I roll so like 6-7 times a night all due to pain

Also, a question for you ladies...Sofia still has 3 naps a day, is that normal? She naps usually from 8:30-10 am, then 12:30-2:00 and then a last one from 3:30-4:30....It's sounding to me that she's napping a lot? Is that why she's waking up in the middle of the night to poop?

 

[NotNic]

Shadowy - I'm afraid I have no clue about 3 naps. Finlay never had 3 naps unless you count a cheeky freebie in the car, or he had two rubbish ones. I had no idea they were supposed to have 3 until i read it on here recently. It does sound like your lo has quite a bit of sleep in those three naps though. Finlay only has 2-3hrs total in the two naps. He normally has 90-120 mins and then a shorter one.

Larkspur - I love, love the name Rafe. Rafe and Rafael were on my list but OH didnt agree with me. Finlay certainly sounds like he's made of steel when he falls over and bangs his head! The noise is a little alarming! He's soo strong too.

Boo - Finlay is so much heavier than most of his NCT friends. Even the ones that seem to be a similar height / build weigh 2-3lbs less. His Daddy is a rugby player though so I think he gets his biceps and thigh muscles from him. Certainly doesn't get it from me - I'm 5ft 3 and petite. He already overpowers me!

Sorry to hear that we have grumpy babies. Teething is pretty bad for us. I always take comfort in the fact there is always something else. Makes me feel that there is at least a reason for the madness!

 

[Sunnie1984]

Mini Kiwi - YAY! STTN must feel so good after all those wake ups! Fingers crossed it continues.

Boo44 - Glad you've found a solution to the nappy problem! I hope shorter naps work for you and you get a bit more of a lie in!

Bananaz - I hope the teething is over quickly for you.

Notnic - At least 6am can be considered a wake up time, rather than 5am which definitely isn't. Unfortunately for us, Seren is wired for a 6:30am wake up no matter what we do!

Noelle - THanks for the advice, I'm working on it. Sorry Charlotte is sick again. Hope you and DH manage to get away, I doubt she'll sleep any better if you stay with her, rather than go away.

Socity - Sounds like you are also in a WW!

Gaiagirl - So sorry you had a bad night.

Larkspur, I have nothing to add that the others haven't already said.



Does anyone find sleep training really annoying? I find myself getting frustrated when I wouldn't normally!

We are on day two of nap transition and I'm fed up already!

Yesterday Seren took 35 minutes after 2.5 hours awake (normally you can set your watch by her for 30 minutes). Then she did 3 hours 15 mins awake because of the timing of her baby sensory class, and slept for 50 minutes.

She woke crying from that nap though.

Then I had to put her down for 15 mins at 4:30 because she was so so so tired. She was mad when I woke her up, but it seemed to work because she went down at 6:30pm and STTN with no wake ups or stirrings or anything.

Unfortunately next door decided to have a loud party at 3:30am (obviously just back from clubbing) and kept me and DH awake for a couple of hours before her 6:30am awakening.

This morning she went down at 2.5 hours, quite happily, but woke after 28 minutes!!!!

I've left her in her cot hoping she'll drop back off, but she is not happy, so just about to go get her up.

Not good this morning as she now has a swim class at 12pm, so she'll have been awake at least 3 hours 15 minutes again before she will go back down, and I think she's going to be a major grump throughout the class!

I'm just holding onto everything I've read that it takes at least 3 days for a new routine to even begin to sink in..... we're on day two..... so fingers crossed for some improvement over the next few days!

How easy is it to say "be consistent" and "do it for at least a week" but so not easy to do!

Question though, if I do this for a week, and she is still taking 30 minute naps after 2.5 hours awake in the morning, should I extend it a little? The 3 hours plus after the first nap is obviously having a much quicker effect, so is it likely she may need a bit longer in the morning?

I also don't think it helps that she's not fully transitioned to 4 hourly feeds instead of 3, so I think it's causing her early wake ups, so I'm having to work on those at the same time.

I know I have it easy at the moment, especially compared to where we were (waking up every 15 minutes all night) but somehow daytime sleep really baffles me!

x

 

[MiniKiwi]

Noelle - Sorry you're having some rough nights again When are you due to go away?

Boo - I know exactly how you feel with the sore back and achey arms! My LO is 25+ lbs now and she's still walked to sleep as well. My back kills! Sorry Jack's been sick, hope the poor little guy is feeling better soon.

Gaiagirl - Big hugs I remember those days. I used to spend hours every night rocking LO to sleep only for her to wake 10 minutes later It does get easier, I promise.

Shadowy - So glad you managed to avoid a car accident, hope your neck is feeling better! Mia dropped her third nap around 7/7.5 months (but her naps were always very short) so 3 naps sounds fine. 4 hours worth of naps a day sounds normal too, nice for you as well! I'd say the amount of naps and night time poos are unrelated!

Larkspur - Sorry you're having such a hard time, I really hope it ends for you soon

Sunnie - I'm not sure what you've tried but at Seren's age, my LO went down for her first nap after 90 minutes awake.. maybe she's having such crap naps cause she's overtired? Sorry if you've already covered this but we struggled for months with short/non existant naps and I believe it was because we left her awake for too long between naps.

Well the sttn lasted one night here..sort of just enough to get my hopes up haha. Last night she woke 6 times and up for the day at 4:45am.. naughty Mia!

 

[MiniKiwi]

That sttn is really messing with my head now. Why did she manage it one night? Last night was her usual crap again. Up 5 times and up at 2am for a motn party. I felt like screaming. I made her stay in our room for it and she cried most of the time cause I wouldn't let her out of her cot to crawl around and play with toys. This is driving me friggen mental. Especially now that I know what it feels like when she sleeps through. So frustrating

 

[NotNic]

HELP! We have a cot stander-upper! For practically the first time ever we had problems getting him to go to sleep. I'll put him down and two minutes later he'll be standing up at the end of the bed calling for us. After 30mins of trying I brought him downstairs to wear himself out. No toys. I just let him crawl around. He just kept pulling himself up and giggling at me. Finally managed to put him down at 8.30. Then this morning at 6.02am he was shrieking for us standing at the end of the cot! He was far too loud to ignore and laying him back down just made him angry. Normally he wakes at 6 and providing he doesn't have a pooey nappy he will play happily for a bit so we can doze. A harsh start to the day is a shock for this mummy. I'm too tired!

MiniKiwi - once they managed one sttn they will be able to do it again. Have faith. xx

 

[izzlesnizzle]

We're still struggling with the 5am wake ups. Last week she wanted a feed- growth spurt, fine. This week, she doesn't necessarily want a feed, only takes 3 ozs of her bottle but continues until nap time to scream, follow us round crying and whinging. She followed OH round crying at his feet while he was getting ready for work this morning.

He called me to come and take her as he couldn't get ready. I was like well this is what I have to put up with all day! She is an absolute wreck when she gets up at 5 wanting to start the day. I don't even think she WANTS to start the day, she just cant get back to sleep but by 7am shes a complete mess.

Ive had to put her back to bed with a dirty face from breakfast, unwashed and still in her baby grow (I always get her washed and dressed before her nap) coz she was kicking up such an almighty stink about being tired.

Ive tried capping the naps at 1 hr in the morning and 1hr 15 in the afternoon and it hasn't worked. Shes still up at 5am every day. We had one 5.50am which was a luxury but this hasn't happened since.

Anyway I found this link for you girls who are still struggling:

https://www.troublesometots.com/9-12-month-baby-sleep-guide/

Hope it helps!

 

[AngelUK]

Hm interesting reading there izzlesnizzle. Was reading the part about the short naps cause this is really all I have to complain of these days. (Yes I still come and read here just in case I can help and to see how you are all getting on ) My boys very rarely nap longer than 30 mins! They nap in their bouncies with me rocking them with my feet. At night they have dummies and their muslins and they do get their last bottle just before we put them to bed. But they do STTN. So what she says that babies who fall asleep with dummies and with a last bottle doesn't necessarily apply. Or at least it doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, yes Dominic gets whiney just before his naps and after 5 sometimes but if he was so overtired he would be hard to put to bed and he wouldn't sleep well at night, right? Seriously if I could work out why babies do what, I'd write a book and make gazillions lol

 

[Noelle610]

Hey girls! Sorry I've been MIA, my mom is in town. I'm sorry to all who are struggling. I have to read your link Izzles, but I love Troublesome Tots! It's a great site for anyone who needs tips.

Anyway, sleep is okay here. We had two awful nights with lots of wake ups. Then a 90 minute MOTN party the next night, ugh. Last night she STTN. Hopefully that's the beginning of a good stretch and not a one off.

I chatted with the "Sleep Lady" at the opening of our local JCC and she told me at this age I need to be more consistent with my responses. She suggested verbal reassurance and back patting, but not picking up during night waking. I need to work on that. She's sweet and her methods are gentle.