Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[polaris]

i took the example of sleep for a 4 month old and a 6-7 month old from the book. now this actually worked well with ds1. with ds2 i just hardly keep up. like time flies and he is almost 5 months now

the white in the graph represents sleep, and green is sleep time.

t means hours.

oh and this is an icelandic book. the day in iceland ends late. people wake up lik 8am to go to work, since it only takes 10 mins to go to work, hence the late bed time. we woke up 7 to go to work when we had to drive ds1 to playschool.

It's interesting, I was just talking to someone about this.

Studies have shown that the circadian rhythms of people around the world are shockingly similar. For example, the vast majority of people do best (sleeping most soundly and most restoratively) with a 10pm bedtime regardless of where they live. I'm not sure how the changees in culture, how long it's light out, etc. influence these factors. Weissbluth would aruge that they don't, but I'm not convinced.

Anyway, one of my personal pet-peeves is people saying "all babies are different" in regards to sleep and encouraging moms to "ignore the experts". Sorry, but the current advice of how much a baby should sleep and when they should sleep is based on years and years of research on circadian rhythms and biology. They're not just random guidelines and MOST babies do best if they sleep as recommended.

Noelle, I do agree with you and I am really interested in the sleep research and optimal sleep patterns. However since having Clara I have definitely relaxed my beliefs to some extent and embraced the individuality of babies a lot more. Thomas was in many ways a text-book baby with regard to sleep - I wouldn't say that he was a great sleeper but he did well with the expert-endorsed schedules and wake-times and his sleep as a whole seemed to follow the general pattern that is described in sleep books.

Clara is much less textbook in that regard. She sort of does her own thing with regard to sleep. Having said that I am still guided by age-appropriate schedules/wake-times etc. but I find that I have to be a lot more flexible with Clara and things just don't always work as well as they worked for Thomas.

Having said that I do totally agree that many people are much too quick to say things like "oh I just dropped his nap because he just didn't seem to want to sleep during the day anymore" or "I just keep him up until midnight because that's what works for us" or whatever, because I do agree that in most cases that baby would be better on a more age-appropriate schedule and sometimes it's just parental convenience/preference or lack of awareness. But it's honestly only since having a second child, very different to my first, that I have really genuinely realized that all babies actually are different and what works like a charm for one actually may not be a good fit at all for a different baby. I didn't really fully believe that when I only had one.

 

[gaiagirl]

I agree to a certain extent, but I definitely agonized and stressed over those 'experts' advice WAY too much when F was younger. It seems bizarre to me (and I am a biologist so approaching it largely with human evolution in mind) that we should have to train a baby through great distress to do something that doesn't come naturally.

I have tried literally EVERYTHING but CIO/CC and my baby just doesn't always follow the 'normal' patterns. But he is extremely happy, healthy, developmentally on track and well rested. Even though he gets only 13 hours average and often goes to be later.

I am a HUGE fan of evidence based information and obviously an advocate for science...but sometimes it's just a bit too much and too black and white. I can't drive myself crazy stressing over his abnormal habits and I am definitely not making him go through major stress to change what is normal for him!

I love having the info and guidelines there for me, but my own instinct and discretion is my most valuable tool

 

[Noelle610]

i took the example of sleep for a 4 month old and a 6-7 month old from the book. now this actually worked well with ds1. with ds2 i just hardly keep up. like time flies and he is almost 5 months now

the white in the graph represents sleep, and green is sleep time.

t means hours.

oh and this is an icelandic book. the day in iceland ends late. people wake up lik 8am to go to work, since it only takes 10 mins to go to work, hence the late bed time. we woke up 7 to go to work when we had to drive ds1 to playschool.

It's interesting, I was just talking to someone about this.

Studies have shown that the circadian rhythms of people around the world are shockingly similar. For example, the vast majority of people do best (sleeping most soundly and most restoratively) with a 10pm bedtime regardless of where they live. I'm not sure how the changees in culture, how long it's light out, etc. influence these factors. Weissbluth would aruge that they don't, but I'm not convinced.

Anyway, one of my personal pet-peeves is people saying "all babies are different" in regards to sleep and encouraging moms to "ignore the experts". Sorry, but the current advice of how much a baby should sleep and when they should sleep is based on years and years of research on circadian rhythms and biology. They're not just random guidelines and MOST babies do best if they sleep as recommended.

Noelle, I do agree with you and I am really interested in the sleep research and optimal sleep patterns. However since having Clara I have definitely relaxed my beliefs to some extent and embraced the individuality of babies a lot more. Thomas was in many ways a text-book baby with regard to sleep - I wouldn't say that he was a great sleeper but he did well with the expert-endorsed schedules and wake-times and his sleep as a whole seemed to follow the general pattern that is described in sleep books.

Clara is much less textbook in that regard. She sort of does her own thing with regard to sleep. Having said that I am still guided by age-appropriate schedules/wake-times etc. but I find that I have to be a lot more flexible with Clara and things just don't always work as well as they worked for Thomas.

Having said that I do totally agree that many people are much too quick to say things like "oh I just dropped his nap because he just didn't seem to want to sleep during the day anymore" or "I just keep him up until midnight because that's what works for us" or whatever, because I do agree that in most cases that baby would be better on a more age-appropriate schedule and sometimes it's just parental convenience/preference or lack of awareness. But it's honestly only since having a second child, very different to my first, that I have really genuinely realized that all babies actually are different and what works like a charm for one actually may not be a good fit at all for a different baby. I didn't really fully believe that when I only had one.

You know, I think I might believe this because Charlie has been a "textbook" baby in terms of sleep needs! I'm sure that helps.

What you're describing your last paragraph is what really bothers me... When something different is done for the parent's convenience. I don't really get the baby-led approach when it comes to sleep for an older baby either. Of course your kid would prefer to be awake rather than sleep, it means you're doing your job and he knows mom is fun! It doesn't mean you don't need to be a parent and encourage them to sleep when appropriate. I don't care whether thans 5pm or 9pm, but if it's 2am I think I'd raise an eyebrow

 

[gaiagirl]

Lol, I can definitely agree on that one!

 

[Noelle610]

I agree to a certain extent, but I definitely agonized and stressed over those 'experts' advice WAY too much when F was younger. It seems bizarre to me (and I am a biologist so approaching it largely with human evolution in mind) that we should have to train a baby through great distress to do something that doesn't come naturally.

I have tried literally EVERYTHING but CIO/CC and my baby just doesn't always follow the 'normal' patterns. But he is extremely happy, healthy, developmentally on track and well rested. Even though he gets only 13 hours average and often goes to be later.

I am a HUGE fan of evidence based information and obviously an advocate for science...but sometimes it's just a bit too much and too black and white. I can't drive myself crazy stressing over his abnormal habits and I am definitely not making him go through major stress to change what is normal for him!

I love having the info and guidelines there for me, but my own instinct and discretion is my most valuable tool

It's an interesting perspective. I've always taken the viewpoint that we have to "train" (though I hate that word, I prefer "teach") babies to do a lot of things. Potty training, eating solid foods, etc.

I very much agree with you that too much stress can be placed on following guidelines. My DH still makes fun of me for not wanting to nap Charlie in the swing at 3 months old... I thought I was creating "bad habits"

At the end of the day, I think most kids are within a "normal" range and I'd consider 13 hours of sleep a day "good"/"normal". There are outliers though! That's just the way the universe works. I don't doubt that they exist, I just don't think they're as plentiful as parents believe. Does that make sense?

 

[stephie_corin]

Interesting discussion! So glad to be part of this respectful, intelligent and caring group of women.

I'm not sure how I feel about the textbook sleep advice. I follow my wake times religiously, ensure Culver has two good naps, never exceeding two hours for a nap or three hours in total, we always aim for 11-12 hours sleep depending on naps... It seems to work but I wonder how much is just routine. If I did any combination of naps and night sleep every day I'm sure that particular combination would work if the total number of sleep hours tallied up.

I did some reading recently on segmented sleep that was interesting. The idea was that traditionally people would sleep in two blocks, waking for a period in between. The Wikipedia article on it is quite a good summary:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

I do agree babies need a lot of sleep but how that sleep is taken is (in my mind) like a pie - it's of a finite size but can be carved up in any number of ways.

 

[gaiagirl]

Totally! And I definitely used to feel the same about having to teach babies to sleep, just like with potty and food and reading etc. Then I had this baby who just does what he wants, lol.

I DO think that when he is older and I can use language as a tool and he can understand that is totally different and I will absolutely be much more 'strict' about routine. Especially because I will have to be with daycare/work etc.

For now, I try my best to guide him to healthy habits but try to just go with it when he is set on his own little schedule. As long as all three of us are able to live with it! And as much as I complain, it is totally doable right now. Just not my fantasy/ideal situation. Hehe.

If only these babies were programmable...

 

[gaiagirl]

Actually, just thinking about that. I don't really teach F to eat, we are doing BLW so really he has figured it all out himself.

And the potty I guess is a modern invention so I guess evolutionarily that is an exception...

 

[stephie_corin]

Stephie it has got bad when we are celebrating a two hour stretch. Clara is actually consistently doing 1.5 to 2 hours in the evenings now (usually 2 hours) and to me this is an improvement! Amazing how one's perceptions of good/bad sleep change.

Thanks Polaris - if we had told our pregnant selves we'd be celebrating two hour stretches at this point I don't think we would have believed it! I hope Clara's 2 hours keeps improving for you!!

 

[Noelle610]

Interesting discussion! So glad to be part of this respectful, intelligent and caring group of women.

I'm not sure how I feel about the textbook sleep advice. I follow my wake times religiously, ensure Culver has two good naps, never exceeding two hours for a nap or three hours in total, we always aim for 11-12 hours sleep depending on naps... It seems to work but I wonder how much is just routine. If I did any combination of naps and night sleep every day I'm sure that particular combination would work if the total number of sleep hours tallied up.

I did some reading recently on segmented sleep that was interesting. The idea was that traditionally people would sleep in two blocks, waking for a period in between. The Wikipedia article on it is quite a good summary:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

I do agree babies need a lot of sleep but how that sleep is taken is (in my mind) like a pie - it's of a finite size but can be carved up in any number of ways.

I agree - love this group of girls! Room for everyone's opinions in here.

I have read about this too Stephie and it's definitely interesting! As I've said in the past, I don't think a few night wakings are cause of concern. I think excessive wakings can be detrimental to a baby's health and development, BUT... I also think some kids are just no-good, bad, terrible sleepers. I still think they have the same sleep *needs* in terms of bedtime / number of hours as most babies, but I don't necessarily think that means they're not going to need help to get there regardless of the method (sleep training, soothing, whatever).

Totally! And I definitely used to feel the same about having to teach babies to sleep, just like with potty and food and reading etc. Then I had this baby who just does what he wants, lol.

I DO think that when he is older and I can use language as a tool and he can understand that is totally different and I will absolutely be much more 'strict' about routine. Especially because I will have to be with daycare/work etc.

For now, I try my best to guide him to healthy habits but try to just go with it when he is set on his own little schedule. As long as all three of us are able to live with it! And as much as I complain, it is totally doable right now. Just not my fantasy/ideal situation. Hehe.

If only these babies were programmable...

I totally agree... It's so hard when you don't "know" if something is wrong. We can often intuit if a baby is in pain from teething or just not wanting to go to sleep because it's not as exciting as playing, but it's normal for moms to question themselves. Really makes it tough.

 

[gaiagirl]

Still thinking about this...lol.

I definitely do a bit of a raised eyebrow when people say their baby just doesn't 'need' to nap or just won't. So I guess that is one place where I think parents need to step in.

Mine wouldn't just spontaneously nap, he had to be coaxed into it. But he NEEDS it!

 

[Noelle610]

Still thinking about this...lol.

I definitely do a bit of a raised eyebrow when people say their baby just doesn't 'need' to nap or just won't. So I guess that is one place where I think parents need to step in.

Mine wouldn't just spontaneously nap, he had to be coaxed into it. But he NEEDS it!

Same here!

 

[stephie_corin]

Still thinking about this...lol.

I definitely do a bit of a raised eyebrow when people say their baby just doesn't 'need' to nap or just won't. So I guess that is one place where I think parents need to step in.

Mine wouldn't just spontaneously nap, he had to be coaxed into it. But he NEEDS it!

Same here!

Me three!

 

[stephie_corin]

Bababas, I meant to say, I love Iceland! I can understand how weird it must be for you though trying to get to sleep with the sun up! It must feel a bit like jetlag... but all the time!

 

[polaris]

Still thinking about this...lol.

I definitely do a bit of a raised eyebrow when people say their baby just doesn't 'need' to nap or just won't. So I guess that is one place where I think parents need to step in.

Mine wouldn't just spontaneously nap, he had to be coaxed into it. But he NEEDS it!

Same here!

Me three!

Yes absolutely, me four!

Very interesting discussion. Stephie, that is really interesting about the segmented sleep, I will remember that next time Clara has a MOTN party. Maybe I should start praying with her, LOL.

 

[polaris]

Stephie it has got bad when we are celebrating a two hour stretch. Clara is actually consistently doing 1.5 to 2 hours in the evenings now (usually 2 hours) and to me this is an improvement! Amazing how one's perceptions of good/bad sleep change.

Thanks Polaris - if we had told our pregnant selves we'd be celebrating two hour stretches at this point I don't think we would have believed it! I hope Clara's 2 hours keeps improving for you!!

I'm so glad I didn't know this when I was pregnant!

 

[freddie]

Thanks for your advice ladies Ah, I think I need to log in to this thread more regularly, I can hardly keep up lol! So sorry if I am totally missing things... Very interesting discussion on sleep patterns though and as for the napping thing - I've totally met mums that tell me that their LO doesn't need/ won't nap... Nope my LO wouldn't by choice - he'd love to stay up and play with mummy all day but I know that he definitely needs his naps and I have absolutely worked my butt off to get him to take regular day time naps!! I am actually quite proud of myself as my 20-40 minute cat napper now takes 2 x 1.5 hour naps pretty consistently... Not in his cot mind but I'm realising that the location of his sleep is not important right now, just as long as he sleeps! Surely good night time sleep will follow...... SIGH!

 

[gaiagirl]

We can all only hope Rachel. Lol.

 

[seaweed eater]

I think discussions having to do with "needs" are always a bit sensitive...because on one hand needs are so culturally and socially defined, but on the other hand they are so subjective and personal. If someone told me that it's only because of my cultural background that I don't believe LO is currently getting the sleep he needs, of course I would cite his behavior and my personal knowledge of him. He is tired, and he is waking up grumpy. I don't think those things are just culture or somehow in my head. But of course there is also a cultural component to it and we can certainly have sensible debates about that. I don't really know what I'm trying to say here. I guess just that I can understand both sides and why it's always a little fraught.

 

[freddie]

Seaweed I just noticed our boys are just 6 days apart