Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[stephie_corin]

Amy, I hope Chloe caught up on some sleep over the weekend. Do you find any difference in her night sleep from when she has good naps to the days she is in daycare?

SE, I'm very curious how Munchkin is coping on one nap too? It's amazing he can stay awake for so long before the one nap. Although - as you say, the routine in his current room doesn't lend itself to an earlier nap.

Lysh, I'm glad she got some good naps! Cully sleeps so much better in my arms. If I transfer him he usually wakes pretty quickly.

Kita, I'm so sorry! 2 hours is such a long time in the middle of the night!

Polaris, that is similar to what Cully has done with his naps since he got over that virus. He was taking three naps when he was unwell but now he won't take his first nap until 3-4 hours after waking and a cat nap around 430. He even fell asleep at 5 the other day. I felt bad getting him up because he cried but he could easily have slept a few hours at that time.

Gaia, I can't believe F was asleep in the middle of the room! How funny! Did you put him back in bed or just wait for his next night waking? Cully has taken to getting up and crawling around for his evening wake ups too- I see him in the video monitor and run upstairs because our mattress is still a foot off the ground and he tries to go down head first.

Detterose, welcome! I'm sorry sleep is so bad for you at the moment. This is such a tough age for sleep! What's your day routine like?

Would you believe, still no front teeth! He's in pain and struggling to sleep even with pain relief. There is a lot of rocking going on here at the moment - I think I fell asleep sitting up last night. One day this will all be a distant memory I'm sure!

 

[lysh]

Polaris- Thank you- I am hoping the nursing gets better. I go back to work in less than 4 weeks now and I am not pumping, so we will see. Still nurse to sleep....she went back to her normal routine and I just went with it. Honestly, I am fine if that is the last thing that goes.

detterose- It will get better....I kind of forced the issue with my LO though. I could not function at work....I would get up and tend to my daughter but she had to at least give me 2 1/2-3 hour stretches of sleep. If she was not crying because she was in pain or scared, I would let her fuss for a bit in her crib until she went back to sleep. Honestly, if I did not do that I would probably still be waking up multiple times a night!!! Eventually she went from 2 1/2 stretches to longer naturally.

Little girl did well last night...slept 8:15-5:50!!!! I am getting hopes again that she might sleep a little later. She did 30 minutes in her crib in the afternoon yesterday...rest was in my arms! I did not force it though...still teething.

 

[Miss Vintage]

Hi ladies, I hope you don't mind me jumping in but you all seem to know your stuff and I was hoping to get some advice. We've been doing cc at night with my 10 month old since last Monday, so 6 nights. It's been largely successful, the first 2 nights he slept through after half an hour of moaning/crying and regular reassurance checks (every 5-7 minutes). But after that he really protested bedtime and woke in the night, when it then took an hour and 15 minutes to settle him first night, and 2 1/2 hours the second. Third night was not as bad, and last night he slept 8-6.30 again. So my questions are:

1. Is it imperative that he naps, no matter what. The first 2 nights he had taken both his naps, same last night, but the nights he woke he had missed his afternoon nap and was so grumpy come bedtime. He usually self settles no problem for naps, has done for a while, but sometimes he needs to be rocked. Rocking is the habit we're trying to break at night, so I don't want to confuse him, but he clearly sleeps better when he's had his daytime sleep. I think I've seen on here that naps are regulated differently from night time sleep anyway?

2. We were using the Ferber method, so extending response time each night, but as he got worse as we went on, I think maybe shorter intervals are better? The night we started with a 15 minute interval he was really upset by the time it came to go in. The book says he shouldn't be like this at this point in the programme, but maybe he needs us to go in more often? I went back to 5 and seven minutes last night and it seemed to help. The book suggests he'll never be able to self settle without us coming in if we don't extend the wait period. Does anyone have any experience of this?

3. Should I be avoiding picking him up at all costs? The nights he was bad I did pick him up because he was so upset, and I held him till he calmed down, which worked, but again I don't want to confuse him.

Thanks so much for reading, I really want to get this right and do right by my son, I'm going back to work next month and I can't be up rocking him all night any more, it's killing me!

 

[seaweed eater]

Lysh, thanks for telling me about your nursing schedule. Does she take much solid food? Mine is a snacker too...I've often wondered whether it means my supply is low but the amount I pump seems to be normal. He's starting to space his out a little more now that he's eating more solid food, but I still can't imagine him nursing twice a day...guess we'll see.

I'm sorry about your early mornings, and about the teething. I'm sure you have experimented with bedtime and know what the sweet spot is for you? The difference between 5 and 6 is huge for me. I think you were right to just focus on getting her daytime sleep, given how early she'd been up. And it looks like it paid off with a later morning!

Kita, sorry about your MOTN how was last night?

Stephie, ugh so sorry that those stupid teeth are not in yet!!! You are way past due a good week. I hope you wake up and see two teeth tomorrow!

Polaris, glad Clara is feeling better. I really hope you do get some good sleep. The SS sounds very promising, that's the same as what Munchkin does to go to sleep.

Gaia, I'm glad things went better I can imagine why you are thinking of stopping bedsharing. Munchkin likes to sleep against the side of the crib...if there were no side, I'm not sure what he would do!

Detterose, welcome I'm sorry you are struggling. Gaia is right, it WILL get better, but then worse... but then better! Maybe we can give you some help though. Can you post your daily routine? When/where/how does LO sleep? What happens when LO wakes up during the night? You mentioned cosleeping, when did that start?

Miss Vintage, welcome to you too it sounds like you had an extinction burst with CC. It's pretty normal for things to get worse around nights 3-4 and then better again. I imagine you will continue to have smoother sailing, although I'm sorry you went through those really long wakings.

You should definitely rock him for naps if that's the way he gets daytime sleep. You can work on SS for naps after nighttime is going consistently well. It sounds like overtiredness due to bad naps really affects him (though as I said it could also just have been an extinction burst). My understanding is that what you read about daytime and nighttime sleep being regulated differently is correct. So just be really consistent at night and do whatever you need to do during naps for now. I think you'll know when you are ready to proceed to naps.

I would also shorten the intervals if that seems to help. Just make sure you are doing it consistently and not in response to LO's cries. Also, IMO it is perfectly ok to pick him up as long as he is going down awake and self-settling once he's calm. You're lucky in a way -- some babies prefer to have no help at all in going to sleep, and then their parents end up being pushed toward CIO even if that wasn't their original plan!

 

[seaweed eater]

Oh, and Stephie and Polaris, you asked how Munchkin is doing on one nap. He seems fine, oddly enough it's the first wake time that's really long and I don't get to see him myself during that one, but his teachers have assured me that he seems happy and not tired. In his second wake time he's certainly fine until close to bedtime.

It's strange -- some mornings I think, there's no way he's going to stay up until noon today, but he always does! I guess it's the routine and all the stimulation. Sometimes he falls asleep in the car at 8:15, but not always!

We're still doing 2 naps on weekends. He's just really ready for a nap at 9 so I put him down. Obviously his bedtime is a bit later on two nap days but I'm just GWTF for now!

 

[Miss Vintage]

Thanks so much seaweed eater, that's really helpful. He took both naps today, so we'll see how tonight goes.

 

[gaiagirl]

Stephie, I did move him but he woke up so that was a bit unfortunate. We use the angel care under his bed but the fan in his room must have affected it so it didn't beep when he left the mattress. I could only leave him in his room while I sleep if he's on the bed, so I know where he is. So yah...had no choice but to try moving him!

SE I have a bed rail so I'm not really too worried about him falling off our bed, I just wonder if he needs the space to move around and settle himself. Last night he was back to more calm sleep so not sure...will just keep playing it by ear! DH and I both really prefer him in our room for now so hopefully it continues to work.

Detterose I would not worry yourself too much about cosleeping. Babies change a LOT in the first few years and their needs change too. If you and DH are ok with bedsharing and it works, don't stress. But I'm a huge advocate of it so that's my take I absolutely love it and am so glad we went this route as we all get what we need this way. It gets bad press in our bizarre society but its actually the way we were evolved to sleep. So there's a reason it is often 'easier'. You're not trying to battle the current of infant physiology. Instead you're going with it.

 

[polaris]

Just a quick update as we have visitors so I can't reply properly - Clara did a four hour stretch of sleep last night!! She woke at 10 p.m. and had a quick feed and then I didn't hear anything from her until 2.10 a.m.! The rest of the night wasn't too bad either, just a few short wakings. This is such a huge improvement on her recent sleep! Feeling much more optimistic that things will eventually improve.

 

[detterose]

Thanks ladies for all your responses. At the moment it just feels so hopeless and like it's not getting any better. The last few nights have gotten worse. He wont even lie still in bed with us. He just squirms around until we pick him up and rock him to sleep. Then when we lay down with him, he wakes up and cries again :'(

As for our daily routine, Hunter usually wakes at 6am. He has a bottle as soon as he is awake, we play til about 7:30-8am and he goes down for his morning nap. Generally he is pretty good at self settling until lately, now he needs to be rocked or patted to sleep, because he just fights it and cries and thrusts himself around his cot. When he does eventually go off, his naps can last anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour. If he has a short nap I will try get him back to sleep but if he wont, I will take him back outside to play.

He has lots of tummy time, time in a play centre and jolly jumper. He only lasts 2 hours between naps so he goes back down for a nap 2 hours after the last time he woke. And this continues til 5pm which is when we wind down for bed. If he is interested he gets some solids, then a bath and then bottle.

He is still swaddled, but not so his arms are restricted, its a free to move swaddle so he can access his hands but tight enough so he wont wake himself when he flails his arms. And we blast white noise. He then gets put down to sleep in his cot by 6pm.

Usually he will sleep through til about 2am, has a bottle and goes back to sleep til 6am. But lately he sleeps til 8pm, cries til we go in and pat him back off. He will go back to sleep for maybe 10-20 mins, cries again. So we offer a bottle. He might go back to sleep for an hour, cries and we try to pat him back off. Its usually by this point he refuses to go back to sleep so we take him to our bed. For a little while he would last through the night with us just needing to be patted back to sleep every now and again through the night but the last few nights he has been horrible, just screams until we pick him up and rock him. I thought it was just Wonder Week 26. But he is now 27w 5 days but his due date and this has been going on for over 2 weeks. He has been trying to crawl but I dont know what to do anymore

 

[seaweed eater]

Sorry to hear how much you guys are struggling, Detterose. My first thought is to try extending his wake times and dropping to 2 naps, since you said he is fighting the first one. Is he showing sleepy signs at 7:30-8 when you put him down? Have you ever tried taking him out of bed and putting him down again later when he fights -- and if so, does that help?

 

[gaiagirl]

Oh that sounds rough, I guess I assumed you were BFing? If not and having to keep getting up and rocking then that certainly makes life more difficult. Has he started solids? Could he be having tummy issues? It sounds like he is quite restless which makes me think maybe he is uncomfortable?

 

[seaweed eater]

Oh and YAY POLARIS AND CLARA!! Really hoping better times are ahead for you!!!

 

[detterose]

Hi seaweed eater, I have tried extending the time between his naps and then he gets overtired and even worse to put down. Before his sleeping went to sh-t, he would go down without problem. He grizzles and rubs his eyes around the 1 1/2 hr-2hr mark. So I try not to push him past that. Should I try maybe and see if he improves over the next few days??

Gaia, no sorry, not anymore. Long story with latching and reflux problems I thought maybe that too? But I cant see any new teeth through, he already has his front bottom two. Should I take him to a Dr to rule out an ear infection??? Its been 2 weeks, not sure how long Wonder Week 26 should last for but I thought it would be over by now. He has solids occasionally, only if he is interested. He still sleeps poorly on the days he has no solids

 

[stephie_corin]

Detterose, your story is similar to mine. I moved to full time bed sharing when my son was about 6 months because the cot was too dangerous on the high setting and he was too heavy for me to pick up on the lowest setting. I am still rocking for every wake up but a week or so ago he was showing signs of not wanting to be rocked and we weaned ourselves off rocking very quickly. He then fell ill and is teething so we are back to rocking. I am hopeful we can work on the rocking once his front teeth are through. It's HARD rocking at every wake up - I feel your pain. You could try to just hold him and let him cry in your arms while trying to soothe him in other ways if you are comfortable with that approach. Or you can wait it out knowing he will eventually outgrow it, of course. Do you think he just wants a cuddle? Have you tried lying next to him with your arm under his head and jiggling while you are lying down?

I agree that you should try and lengthen his awake times. He may be napping too much in the day which is affecting his night sleep. He may be tired for a few days but he should adjust quickly.

SE, I'm glad Munchkin is doing great on one nap is anyone still following approximate waketimes with success? It seems like we are all doing variations of GWTF at the moment!

Miss Vintage, good luck! I hope the sleep training goes well. SE has given wonderful advice, as usual

Polaris, I'm happy for you my friend that's such wonderful news!

Gaia, I hope you guys don't have to give up bedsharing anytime soon! You don't have a sidecar crib, do you? You could try that for some extra space for everyone.

Amy, how are you guys? Bababas? Kita?

Our night was pretty blah. Still no teeth - SE, I hope we don't have weeks to wait like you with Munchkin! I didn't give pain relief last night because he has had quite a bit with his fever last week and then the last two nights due to teething.

Have a great day everyone

 

[detterose]

Hi Stephie, it is so hard isn't it. It wouldnt be nearly as exhausting if we werent having to rock him all the time. I have tried that every night, but he actually just continues to crack up and squirm until I stand up with him. As soon as I stand up, he stops crying, its so strange. I will try lengthen out his awake times over a course of a few days and see how we go. He went down to bed tonight at 6pm without a fight for once, so we will see how long it takes before he wakes up and ends up in our bed lol

 

[stephie_corin]

Hi Stephie, it is so hard isn't it. It wouldnt be nearly as exhausting if we werent having to rock him all the time. I have tried that every night, but he actually just continues to crack up and squirm until I stand up with him. As soon as I stand up, he stops crying, its so strange. I will try lengthen out his awake times over a course of a few days and see how we go. He went down to bed tonight at 6pm without a fight for once, so we will see how long it takes before he wakes up and ends up in our bed lol

My son isn't fooled by that move either - I still try it every night in the hope it will work

He will outgrow it eventually - but if you don't want to wait (which I totally understand!) there are some gentle sleep training and other sleep training methods we can help you with - collectively there is a lot of experience on this thread!

Cully is going through quite a needy phase due to his teeth and tonight I am going to try rocking him and then sitting up in bed with my arms supported so I can try get some sleep. The transfer wakes him every time at the moment. I think he's asleep and 5 minutes later he is moaning/crying. Do you think your son is teething? Hugs to you!

 

[AmyS]

Stephie - Any top teeth yet? Chloe is still very fussy, but no teeth have shown! When she has bad naps at daycare, she will sleep really good at night, until it catches up with her - then we tend to have a couple of bad nights in a row. Sorry for the bad night! Do you have lazyboy furniture over there? I kick myself in the butt daily for not getting a lazyboy recliner when it was recommended to me - they rock and recline at the same time! Chloe's rocking chair is comfortable, but it doesn't recline, so if I fall asleep, it makes my neck and back hurt.

Lysh - I don't think it's wrong to support a good nap when they need it - even if it means holding them! I only got to put my LO down for a nap a couple of times this weekend, because she was extra fussy.

polaris - Thanks for the kind words! I do try to see the daycare's side of the situation too - I just want someone to tell me how I can help the situation. I do get really stressed, but then I remember that she will be growing out of this phase soon, and everything will change again! It's kind of looking like I might be heading to some nap training...the hard way, unfortunately.

Clara is doing so well - that's great that she's ss, and the 4 hour stretch is amazing!

Gaia - So funny that F ended up sleeping in the middle of the room!!

detterose - Sorry you're here! 6 months was a bad time at my house too! I hear it gets better when they're teenagers - they don't want to get out of bed! haha Seriously, you've gotten some good advice already from the other ladies!
______________

We have a fussy baby over here! With her adjusted age, we are still in WW37, so I'm blaming it on that. And teeth! I'm surprised daycare hasn't called me yet to come give her some Motrin.

I am sick also, so last night she woke up at 9 - hubby very graciously offered to go put her back to sleep. Apparently, that wasn't good enough for her, so Chloe started freaking out on him. I ended up having to calm her down with a bottle, and then she slept ok - still up at 5am though!

Naps this weekend didn't go so well either! Her first nap both mornings didn't get beyond 10 - 15 minutes because of a barking dog on Saturday, and then she fell asleep in the car Sunday.

I think I'm going to end up doing some sort of nap training here. I still feed her to sleep, but when she moves to the next room at daycare, she will be off the bottle and need to fall asleep on her own. That's a few months away, but hopefully I can come up with some gradual method to get her there. I haven't tried any other way yet, so maybe she'll surprise me!

 

[Miss Vintage]

Well, last night started well, but went downhill. Leo went to sleep by himself without either of us having to go in. But, he then woke up at 1 and didn't go back to sleep until 10 to 4. Urgh. I picked him up several times and tried to put him down awake but in the end I had to hold him until he was really drowsy and then rub his back, so he was more or less asleep when I left the room. It felt like the right thing to do at the time, but now I feel really disappointed and worried I've ruined all our hard work. He's sneezing a lot today so I think he might be sickening for a cold, obviously I don't want him crying for too long if that's the case, but I so don't want to go back to square one. I think I'll just try and put him down awake and see what happens, but pick him up and calm him if I need to.

Detterose, all night rocking is what I was doing before starting cc, so I know how you feel, it's a killer.

 

[detterose]

Well just an update. I think it may be pain related after all. I feel so silly and so sorry for my baby boy for not realising earlier. His cries sounded painful last night and he has only been having half of his bottles at a time. He had the sniffles not long ago so I am tjinking it could possibly be an ear infection? We gave him some baby panadol and after 15 mins he ended up self settling in his own room and slept from 11-5. I am going to take him to my work today to see our Dr and rule out the ear infection theory.

 

[stephie_corin]

Detterose, it could be teething too - I think some babies teeth for months before any visible signs of teeth. I hope your boy is better soon.

Miss Vintage, so sorry about your MOTN baby party. I hope he isn't sick! It's hard to know what to do sometimes. I think following your instincts is a good idea.

Amy, still no teeth here. I live the idea of a lazy boy recliner! We've only got a rocking chair and I just sit up in bed and rock him and its so tough on my back!

It's hard on you if you know Chloe isn't functioning at her best because of naps. And those bad nights after the good ones (at her expense because of bad daycare naps) are no good! What sort of nap training are you considering? Have you thought of trying the equivalent of the Pantley Pull Off for naps? Will they help her at all in the next room, even to get drowsy? Or will they all nap at the same time?

Cully took a 30 minute nap after 3.5 hour awake time and is now in the middle of a 1 hour long nap (not sure how long it will go) after 4 hours. I've been shooting for a 730 bedtime regardless of when he wakes up but he's been fighting bedtime badly. Do you guys think I should push bedtime back? It's 4pm now and he may sleep until 430. Should I try 8pm or 830pm or do you think that's too late? I feel like he is too restless. For his first few wakeups (usually 3-4 before 10pm) he rolls over and starts crawling immediately, no crying. He closes his eyes the instant I pick him up but maybe he needs a longer awake time before bed. I'm loath to put him in bed too late because I feel like I really need an hour or two me time before the night time parenting shift starts!