Refreshing talk today with HV's regarding BFing

Blah, I'm really really suprised by the those figures, and not in a good way. :( When I stopped BF at eight weeks, well expressing really as LO wouldnt latch, I was given the impression that by changing to FF I was very much in the minority, but it seems I wasnt!!

I so wish for us BF had worked out, even eight weeks on from stopping the guilt I feel is horrendous and eats me up inside. xx

:hugs: You shouldn't feel guilty, you sound like a great mummy :hugs:
 
In the UK..

35% of babies are BF at 1 week
21% at 6 weeks
7% at 4 months
3% at 5 months

so terrible.

Wow..that is horrible!! I am shocked actually..I thought UK was really 'natural' because of midwives and homebirths.

JASMAK I know you're in BC where I'm from originally too... I think our rates must have been much much higher than that, I don't know any girls except 1 that formula fed, even girls at work were pumping on their breaks

Yeah, I don't know one person who formula feeds at all. I am on the island, which is a little more 'natural' than say, Vancouver...but still, even friends in Vancouver all breastfeed. I even know someone who BF their baby to 3.5 years, and one who still BF and she just turned 6 years old. Tandum feeding is becoming quite common...and breastfeeding is completely normal and it is very common to see a woman breastfeeding in public...restaurants, malls, parks...completely normal. No one bats an eye.
 
1% at six months - I really do find that very very shocking, and so sad. :(

And thanks Blah and Lou. :hugs: xx
 
I can't help but wonder if the MWs/HVs/etc aren't being impaled by their own swords. Rightly or wrongly, BF is often rammed down your throat by them when you're pregnant and a new mum and many people simply don't like being told what to do. I wonder whether if they laid all the information out bare (both BF and FF) and let people take what they will from it and make their own decision without constant pressure, whether the BF statistics would improve.

For example, in theory I am prepared to try BF again this time, but at the same time I am afraid that if I tell them this and then I feel it's not working again, I won't be allowed to switch when I'm in hospital. I have vivid memories of the mum in the bed opposite me sobbing and begging for a bottle in the middle of the night and the MWs wouldn't let her. On the other hand my friend said from the start that she wanted to FF and was given a bottle in the very same hospital without argument. Based on that I do wonder whether it would just be easier to FF from the start rather than have a fight on my hands and feel that I am being bullied if my instincts are telling me that BF isn't working for us again.
 
In the UK..

35% of babies are BF at 1 week
21% at 6 weeks
7% at 4 months
3% at 5 months

so terrible.

Wow..that is horrible!! I am shocked actually..I thought UK was really 'natural' because of midwives and homebirths.

JASMAK I know you're in BC where I'm from originally too... I think our rates must have been much much higher than that, I don't know any girls except 1 that formula fed, even girls at work were pumping on their breaks

When I was in Vancouver last month I saw sooo many women breastfeeding, older babies too. I loved it! I am getting to the stage now where I sense that some people feel very awkward about the fact that I'm still breastfeeding.

Yes out here I've never seen anyone bat an eye to NIP. Here they don't even ask you if you are BF or formula, it's assumed you are BF and FF is the minority, at least from what I've seen, I don't know any actual figures. Our provincial health booklet Baby's Best Chance contains tons of BF info and only has one formula section that says "call your doctor", without any other information.
 
Another reason why I want to use my Canadian citizenship and move to Canada! The only thing stopping me is that my future boy's name is Reuben and I am aware that it is the name of a very popular sandwich out there...NOT EVEN A NICE SANDWICH :(
 
In the UK..

35% of babies are BF at 1 week
21% at 6 weeks
7% at 4 months
3% at 5 months

so terrible.

Wow..that is horrible!! I am shocked actually..I thought UK was really 'natural' because of midwives and homebirths.

JASMAK I know you're in BC where I'm from originally too... I think our rates must have been much much higher than that, I don't know any girls except 1 that formula fed, even girls at work were pumping on their breaks

Yeah, I don't know one person who formula feeds at all. I am on the island, which is a little more 'natural' than say, Vancouver...but still, even friends in Vancouver all breastfeed. I even know someone who BF their baby to 3.5 years, and one who still BF and she just turned 6 years old. Tandum feeding is becoming quite common...and breastfeeding is completely normal and it is very common to see a woman breastfeeding in public...restaurants, malls, parks...completely normal. No one bats an eye.

I formula fed Alex after expressing and when people find out here's formula fed, the reaction is: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that". I dunno, I think it's just the culture here. The idea that a woman formula feeds of her own choice (ie. she just doesn't agree/like BF) is beyond alien. I know that even the one girl I know who formula feeds did not do it because she wanted to, but because she felt she had to after a difficult birth.

Women choosing to formula feed here. Nope, never seen it. I'm sure it exists but they wouldn't voice it. Women use to come to me and say, "wow, he's so big and healthy, he must be breastfed".

It's a great way to encourage it, IMO
 
In the UK..

35% of babies are BF at 1 week
21% at 6 weeks
7% at 4 months
3% at 5 months

so terrible.

Wow..that is horrible!! I am shocked actually..I thought UK was really 'natural' because of midwives and homebirths.

JASMAK I know you're in BC where I'm from originally too... I think our rates must have been much much higher than that, I don't know any girls except 1 that formula fed, even girls at work were pumping on their breaks

When I was in Vancouver last month I saw sooo many women breastfeeding, older babies too. I loved it! I am getting to the stage now where I sense that some people feel very awkward about the fact that I'm still breastfeeding.

Yes out here I've never seen anyone bat an eye to NIP. Here they don't even ask you if you are BF or formula, it's assumed you are BF and FF is the minority, at least from what I've seen, I don't know any actual figures. Our provincial health booklet Baby's Best Chance contains tons of BF info and only has one formula section that says "call your doctor", without any other information.

Yup same...they just assume you are BFing. I guess if something came up, they would help??? I knwo they do carry formula as my son got some at birth (he was hypoglycemic). Seems to work here though! I would imagine Quebec has very high BFing rate as well.
 
Another reason why I want to use my Canadian citizenship and move to Canada! The only thing stopping me is that my future boy's name is Reuben and I am aware that it is the name of a very popular sandwich out there...NOT EVEN A NICE SANDWICH :(

Well, he would be teased because of big fat Rueben Studdard from American Idol but at least you could BF him at 1 in public without worrying about people :rofl:
 
In the UK..

35% of babies are BF at 1 week
21% at 6 weeks
7% at 4 months
3% at 5 months

so terrible.

Wow..that is horrible!! I am shocked actually..I thought UK was really 'natural' because of midwives and homebirths.

JASMAK I know you're in BC where I'm from originally too... I think our rates must have been much much higher than that, I don't know any girls except 1 that formula fed, even girls at work were pumping on their breaks

When I was in Vancouver last month I saw sooo many women breastfeeding, older babies too. I loved it! I am getting to the stage now where I sense that some people feel very awkward about the fact that I'm still breastfeeding.

Yes out here I've never seen anyone bat an eye to NIP. Here they don't even ask you if you are BF or formula, it's assumed you are BF and FF is the minority, at least from what I've seen, I don't know any actual figures. Our provincial health booklet Baby's Best Chance contains tons of BF info and only has one formula section that says "call your doctor", without any other information.

Yup same...they just assume you are BFing. I guess if something came up, they would help??? I knwo they do carry formula as my son got some at birth (he was hypoglycemic). Seems to work here though! I would imagine Quebec has very high BFing rate as well.

Unfortunately quite the opposite here - you will never see NIP. I think it's a runoff of the Catholic church and it's a very anti-AP/anti-baby led culture. I'm already known as the western babywearing hippy that does not CIO or use a stroller. LOL. When I nip #2, I think I'll give them heart attacks
 
I can't help but wonder if the MWs/HVs/etc aren't being impaled by their own swords. Rightly or wrongly, BF is often rammed down your throat by them when you're pregnant and a new mum and many people simply don't like being told what to do. I wonder whether if they laid all the information out bare (both BF and FF) and let people take what they will from it and make their own decision without constant pressure, whether the BF statistics would improve.

For example, in theory I am prepared to try BF again this time, but at the same time I am afraid that if I tell them this and then I feel it's not working again, I won't be allowed to switch when I'm in hospital. I have vivid memories of the mum in the bed opposite me sobbing and begging for a bottle in the middle of the night and the MWs wouldn't let her. On the other hand my friend said from the start that she wanted to FF and was given a bottle in the very same hospital without argument. Based on that I do wonder whether it would just be easier to FF from the start rather than have a fight on my hands and feel that I am being bullied if my instincts are telling me that BF isn't working for us again.

The first couple of days BFing is horrid. It really is. Your boobs are massive and sore, youre sore from the birth, youre not used to having no sleep and having a baby attached to you 24/7 feeding for hours is HARD. However, it does get better. i wish you could show a new mum what BFing will be like at 3 months old cos its such a stark difference to day 3! I guess the MWs just dont want people giving up too soon when their body can do it, they just need to stick to it.
 
In the UK..

35% of babies are BF at 1 week
21% at 6 weeks
7% at 4 months
3% at 5 months

so terrible.

Wow..that is horrible!! I am shocked actually..I thought UK was really 'natural' because of midwives and homebirths.

JASMAK I know you're in BC where I'm from originally too... I think our rates must have been much much higher than that, I don't know any girls except 1 that formula fed, even girls at work were pumping on their breaks

Yeah, I don't know one person who formula feeds at all. I am on the island, which is a little more 'natural' than say, Vancouver...but still, even friends in Vancouver all breastfeed. I even know someone who BF their baby to 3.5 years, and one who still BF and she just turned 6 years old. Tandum feeding is becoming quite common...and breastfeeding is completely normal and it is very common to see a woman breastfeeding in public...restaurants, malls, parks...completely normal. No one bats an eye.

I formula fed Alex after expressing and when people find out here's formula fed, the reaction is: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that". I dunno, I think it's just the culture here. The idea that a woman formula feeds of her own choice (ie. she just doesn't agree/like BF) is beyond alien. I know that even the one girl I know who formula feeds did not do it because she wanted to, but because she felt she had to after a difficult birth.

Women choosing to formula feed here. Nope, never seen it. I'm sure it exists but they wouldn't voice it. Women use to come to me and say, "wow, he's so big and healthy, he must be breastfed".

It's a great way to encourage it, IMO

Totally agree. I struggled with breastfeeding at first but within my family it was just assumed that I would do it, formula wasn't something I even considered (not because I'm against FF, its just not what I view as 'normal' because all I've ever seen is women breastfeeding). Also the area I live in is very 'alternative' and the rates of breastfeeding are probably unusually high compared to most places, so it is just seen as the norm around here. If it wasn't for that I would probably not have managed to breastfeed for more than a few days.
 
In the UK..

35% of babies are BF at 1 week
21% at 6 weeks
7% at 4 months
3% at 5 months

so terrible.

Wow..that is horrible!! I am shocked actually..I thought UK was really 'natural' because of midwives and homebirths.

JASMAK I know you're in BC where I'm from originally too... I think our rates must have been much much higher than that, I don't know any girls except 1 that formula fed, even girls at work were pumping on their breaks

When I was in Vancouver last month I saw sooo many women breastfeeding, older babies too. I loved it! I am getting to the stage now where I sense that some people feel very awkward about the fact that I'm still breastfeeding.

Yes out here I've never seen anyone bat an eye to NIP. Here they don't even ask you if you are BF or formula, it's assumed you are BF and FF is the minority, at least from what I've seen, I don't know any actual figures. Our provincial health booklet Baby's Best Chance contains tons of BF info and only has one formula section that says "call your doctor", without any other information.

Yup same...they just assume you are BFing. I guess if something came up, they would help??? I knwo they do carry formula as my son got some at birth (he was hypoglycemic). Seems to work here though! I would imagine Quebec has very high BFing rate as well.

Unfortunately quite the opposite here - you will never see NIP. I think it's a runoff of the Catholic church and it's a very anti-AP/anti-baby led culture. I'm already known as the western babywearing hippy that does not CIO or use a stroller. LOL. When I nip #2, I think I'll give them heart attacks

Really?! Wow...I am amazed by that!! I knew some French Canadians who moved here...they were so natural..had a home birth, which is quite rare here...lol...awe, that's too bad. Hahaha...hippy!
 
In the UK..

35% of babies are BF at 1 week
21% at 6 weeks
7% at 4 months
3% at 5 months

so terrible.

Wow..that is horrible!! I am shocked actually..I thought UK was really 'natural' because of midwives and homebirths.

JASMAK I know you're in BC where I'm from originally too... I think our rates must have been much much higher than that, I don't know any girls except 1 that formula fed, even girls at work were pumping on their breaks

When I was in Vancouver last month I saw sooo many women breastfeeding, older babies too. I loved it! I am getting to the stage now where I sense that some people feel very awkward about the fact that I'm still breastfeeding.

Yes out here I've never seen anyone bat an eye to NIP. Here they don't even ask you if you are BF or formula, it's assumed you are BF and FF is the minority, at least from what I've seen, I don't know any actual figures. Our provincial health booklet Baby's Best Chance contains tons of BF info and only has one formula section that says "call your doctor", without any other information.

Yup same...they just assume you are BFing. I guess if something came up, they would help??? I knwo they do carry formula as my son got some at birth (he was hypoglycemic). Seems to work here though! I would imagine Quebec has very high BFing rate as well.

Unfortunately quite the opposite here - you will never see NIP. I think it's a runoff of the Catholic church and it's a very anti-AP/anti-baby led culture. I'm already known as the western babywearing hippy that does not CIO or use a stroller. LOL. When I nip #2, I think I'll give them heart attacks

Really?! Wow...I am amazed by that!! I knew some French Canadians who moved here...they were so natural..had a home birth, which is quite rare here...lol...awe, that's too bad. Hahaha...hippy!

That's probably why they moved to BC :haha: No really, it's true, many Montreal hippies leave for BC.

There are a few of them (in fact I go to a club called Emporte Moi ("carry me") Marsupial Mamas of Montreal!!), mostly from Montreal itself. I live outside of Montreal, 100% francophone area (I am seriously the only English person in town LOL) and it's very old school CIO/formula/bottle/schedule etc. There are of course exceptions but I really do miss that part of BC.
 
I can't help but wonder if the MWs/HVs/etc aren't being impaled by their own swords. Rightly or wrongly, BF is often rammed down your throat by them when you're pregnant and a new mum and many people simply don't like being told what to do. I wonder whether if they laid all the information out bare (both BF and FF) and let people take what they will from it and make their own decision without constant pressure, whether the BF statistics would improve.

For example, in theory I am prepared to try BF again this time, but at the same time I am afraid that if I tell them this and then I feel it's not working again, I won't be allowed to switch when I'm in hospital. I have vivid memories of the mum in the bed opposite me sobbing and begging for a bottle in the middle of the night and the MWs wouldn't let her. On the other hand my friend said from the start that she wanted to FF and was given a bottle in the very same hospital without argument. Based on that I do wonder whether it would just be easier to FF from the start rather than have a fight on my hands and feel that I am being bullied if my instincts are telling me that BF isn't working for us again.

The first couple of days BFing is horrid. It really is. Your boobs are massive and sore, youre sore from the birth, youre not used to having no sleep and having a baby attached to you 24/7 feeding for hours is HARD. However, it does get better. i wish you could show a new mum what BFing will be like at 3 months old cos its such a stark difference to day 3! I guess the MWs just dont want people giving up too soon when their body can do it, they just need to stick to it.

That's just it, in my case my boobs weren't big, they weren't sore, never a leak, she lost so much weight - after I got home it was surmised by first me and later my MW and GP that I had no milk. I am scared that the same thing will happen again and they will bully me to keep going even though every instinct could be telling me it is wrong for us. I wonder how many people opt for formula from the start simply to avoid all that. I suspect my friend chose to FF immediately because her sister was bullied over BF.

They are doing their job and I respect that but at the end of the day a mum will generally know what is best for her and her baby and they need to respect that too.
 
I can't help but wonder if the MWs/HVs/etc aren't being impaled by their own swords. Rightly or wrongly, BF is often rammed down your throat by them when you're pregnant and a new mum and many people simply don't like being told what to do. I wonder whether if they laid all the information out bare (both BF and FF) and let people take what they will from it and make their own decision without constant pressure, whether the BF statistics would improve.

For example, in theory I am prepared to try BF again this time, but at the same time I am afraid that if I tell them this and then I feel it's not working again, I won't be allowed to switch when I'm in hospital. I have vivid memories of the mum in the bed opposite me sobbing and begging for a bottle in the middle of the night and the MWs wouldn't let her. On the other hand my friend said from the start that she wanted to FF and was given a bottle in the very same hospital without argument. Based on that I do wonder whether it would just be easier to FF from the start rather than have a fight on my hands and feel that I am being bullied if my instincts are telling me that BF isn't working for us again.

The first couple of days BFing is horrid. It really is. Your boobs are massive and sore, youre sore from the birth, youre not used to having no sleep and having a baby attached to you 24/7 feeding for hours is HARD. However, it does get better. i wish you could show a new mum what BFing will be like at 3 months old cos its such a stark difference to day 3! I guess the MWs just dont want people giving up too soon when their body can do it, they just need to stick to it.

That's just it, in my case my boobs weren't big, they weren't sore, never a leak, she lost so much weight - after I got home it was surmised by first me and later my MW and GP that I had no milk. I am scared that the same thing will happen again and they will bully me to keep going even though every instinct could be telling me it is wrong for us. I wonder how many people opt for formula from the start simply to avoid all that. I suspect my friend chose to FF immediately because her sister was bullied over BF.

They are doing their job and I respect that but at the end of the day a mum will generally know what is best for her and her baby and they need to respect that too.

Did you try fenugreek and stuff like that? :(
 
In the UK..

35% of babies are BF at 1 week
21% at 6 weeks
7% at 4 months
3% at 5 months

so terrible.

Wow..that is horrible!! I am shocked actually..I thought UK was really 'natural' because of midwives and homebirths.

JASMAK I know you're in BC where I'm from originally too... I think our rates must have been much much higher than that, I don't know any girls except 1 that formula fed, even girls at work were pumping on their breaks

When I was in Vancouver last month I saw sooo many women breastfeeding, older babies too. I loved it! I am getting to the stage now where I sense that some people feel very awkward about the fact that I'm still breastfeeding.

Yes out here I've never seen anyone bat an eye to NIP. Here they don't even ask you if you are BF or formula, it's assumed you are BF and FF is the minority, at least from what I've seen, I don't know any actual figures. Our provincial health booklet Baby's Best Chance contains tons of BF info and only has one formula section that says "call your doctor", without any other information.

Yup same...they just assume you are BFing. I guess if something came up, they would help??? I knwo they do carry formula as my son got some at birth (he was hypoglycemic). Seems to work here though! I would imagine Quebec has very high BFing rate as well.

Unfortunately quite the opposite here - you will never see NIP. I think it's a runoff of the Catholic church and it's a very anti-AP/anti-baby led culture. I'm already known as the western babywearing hippy that does not CIO or use a stroller. LOL. When I nip #2, I think I'll give them heart attacks

Really?! Wow...I am amazed by that!! I knew some French Canadians who moved here...they were so natural..had a home birth, which is quite rare here...lol...awe, that's too bad. Hahaha...hippy!

That's probably why they moved to BC :haha: No really, it's true, many Montreal hippies leave for BC.

There are a few of them (in fact I go to a club called Emporte Moi ("carry me") Marsupial Mamas of Montreal!!), mostly from Montreal itself. I live outside of Montreal, 100% francophone area (I am seriously the only English person in town LOL) and it's very old school CIO/formula/bottle/schedule etc. There are of course exceptions but I really do miss that part of BC.

Nuts! I would go mad!!!
 
I think its unfair to push formula feeding into the background. Its not just for parents who struggle its for parents who dont wish to breastfeed whatever their reasons may be, why should they be forced to only take advice about breastfeeding. Its a persons choice what they choose and I believe they should know all the facts about both.

Everyone who has ever carried a child knows about breastfeeding, its down to them whether they breastfeed or formula feed. Nobody whether you BF or FF should force their decision by ramming information down their throat.

I've always stuck by it and I will continue to is that breast is only best if it works for mother and baby and if mother is comfortable with the idea of breastfeeding then thats great but if she wants to Formula Feed who are we to say the information is not there. Whats so wrong with having your own mind?

I really don't think this is true; there are still many areas in the UK where BF rates are so low that most women have never seen or heard of anyone BF IRL; and the ignorance about BF and how it works is astounding.

What I meant was everyone knows about breastfeeding as in when your pregnant you know your breasts are going to leak and that can be used to feed a baby, not all the information but they know what breastfeeding is.

Unless you live under a rock, same applies for formula and bottle feeding so im unsure where you're going with this?

Because breastfeeding doesnt require sterilising, doesnt require making up a bottle, doesnt require having to keep the formula until a certain time and how to make up bottles.. Now maybe you might see where I am going with this :wacko:
There are a lot of things about formula feeding that parents might not know.

Yeah cos breastfeeding is very easy, just whip your newborn on your boob and thats it :shrug: No, still dont see where your going.

Its not easy and that wasnt what I was getting at but there are groups for breastfeeding you dont have something like that for formula. Not everyone knows about having to sterilise bottles correctly, how to store formula and I have said all this before. Breastfeeding isnt easy but it doesnt come with all the things formula feeding does.
Theres no need to be sarcastic!
 
Honestly I am not sure if I am not writing this clearly or if there is some other issue. As far as I can see we are talking about just that- the availablity of information about FF. As I have said upteen times, my Health Board (meaning MWs, HV etc) openly talk about FF if they are asked. They discuss storage, making up bottles etc. I have also heard them suggesting that people look to hungry baby milk etc. So the information you say people want is available if needed from my Health Board and is not restricted. This is surely the case for all information- it is there if you need it. As I said already, I cannot believe this is the only one where this is the case.

I find it interesting the people want to be told what to do regarding FF but as a society there is a constant outcry when the government issue guidelines regarding parenting and raising children. I do think that if you are planning to FF from the get go then it is your responsibility to educate yourself about how to do it before baby arrives. Surely that is the case about all aspects of parenting? Guidelines change over time and it has to be our responsibility to make sure we are educated about what is current. I do not know anyone IRL who was not offered NHS ante-natal classes or who did not get the Ready, Steady, Baby book. At the ante-natal classes FF was discussed and it wasn't looked down at, nor was it looked down upon subsequently.



First bit in bold - err Im not sure what you mean about that but no, no other issue apart from I think it is very wrong that information is restricted.

Second bit - there was a post (I think the OP) stating that the HV had been told she wasnt allowed to discuss more than very basic info re: FF and was only allowed to discuss it when asked and she had an opinion on which milk the child would be better on from a health POV and wasnt allowed to discuss it with the mum!!!!! The whole point of this thread was about the restriction of information!

Third bit - Not all mums plan to FF and stock up on BF info (like me) and then have to switch to FF unexpectedly and mightnt have even read the Pregnancy Book section about FF because they never expected to need it (like me). So what's the harm, say when the the MW comes to visit on the day of discharge or on a postnatal check and the mum asks the HV if she is doing something right with regards to bottle feeding. How rubbish would it be if the HV is not allowed to answer that mum's query? Let's not forget how scary and horrible being a new mum can be, it doesnt matter how much you research beforehand, the first few days are awful and a bit of reassurance and info from a friendly face of a HCP about your decision to FF cant harm. Or on a HV visit when you have a baby with reflux or whatever and you think changing milk may help but you have no clue which one is the best and from that HCPs experience they believe a certain milk might be better in the best interests of the child (and of course telling them to go to the GP)?


I really dont understand why people have a problem with people accessing information from health professionals about FF. That's what this issue comes down to. Like I keep repeating, we dont want promotional posters, we dont want peer support workers, we dont want workshops. All we are in support of is to have the ability to ask questions from the HCPs involved in our care about FF and not have restrictions about the type of information available (like I said discussing types of milk in certain situations rather than brands).
 
well, thats just plain ridiculous. i just dont agree with loads of info on formula feeding when someone is pregnant. once the baby is born and is already being bottle fed, its nonsensical not to give info on how to make up bottles or w/e.

What use is the information AFTER someone has started to FF, given their baby an unsteralised bottle made with cold water, too much formula and warmed in teh microwave to give hotspots? How is the information on safe formula feeding going to benefit a parent whose child is on life support (or worse...) after drinking a dodgy bottle.

Information on safe FF..or safe EBM feeding..should be given to ALL parents whether they plan to BF or FF. Why leave it until it's too late??

There is going to be a MW about from the first feed anyway. Most people try and BF the first few days and the baby isnt going to starve in 1 day from not getting much from the breast. If they wish to move on from FF then you see a MW or HV a lot in the first few weeks.


There certainly wasnt in my case!!!!!!!!

Oh and you dont see the MW or HV a lot if you switch. I saw a MW assistant (not even a MW) once after I switched and my HV twice. She wasnt going to come about again until 8 months but only because my LO has a VSD she's coming out for my reassurance in a couple of weeks.
 

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