Refreshing talk today with HV's regarding BFing

[Lightworker]

I don't think, currently at least, it is possible to give either FF or BF an equal amount of attention. Therefore, I think more attention needs to go BFing.

I work alongside some HVs and their budgets have been cut so drastically that they are not even allowed to do standard birth visits anymore. In a situation where the government is trying to save money, and in so doing, cutting alot of crucial services, I think it is only fair to pay more attention to BFing and its related support given that
a) it is, in my experience, an area that needs alot more support and improvement
b) the DH has it in its agenda to increase BFing figures.

I do know that children's centres that are trying to (or have already) gained Baby Friendly status are NOT allowed to promote FF in any way. They cannot have any displays or paraphernalia that includes bottles or things associated with FFing. Some HVs do work out of children's centres, and they do give advice on FFing, but for the most part, that is the extent of it.

I think it is unfair, because I am sure FFing can be tough as well, and it is unfair that moms seem not to get the same type of support, but in my opinion, in an age where the main aim is to push BFing, and the govt. is spending so much (use the term loosely) on trying to promote it in various ways, it would be counter-productive to then try to allocate an equal amount of resources and support for FF.

From a personal experience point of view, when I gave birth I was the only lady on the ward BFing, and I was "left to it". I didn't mind as it was my 2nd LO, and to be fair, they initially asked if I needed help. Anyway, there was HCAs or something like that, that were supporting the FF moms, how to hold the bottles etc. So from my observation, where I am, FF gets plenty support, and sometimes almost to the detriment of BFing, because the HV teams have recently failed their BF audit, perhaps because they don't get enough exposure to BFing.

I agree it should not be the same amount but there should be some support avaliable.

Do you think the baby friendly thing would be the same for hospitals who are trying to/have gained there baby friendly status?

Yeah I also wondered about hospitals. I know some are trying to gain (or have gained) Baby Friendly status, but surely they have to have formula on the wards, so I am not sure if hospitals are held to a different standard than children's centres.

 

[moomin_troll]

no idea how u get it.

some people can get it down there from using certain soaps in the bath.

zane somehow got it on his pinky and i changed his bum n forgot to wash my hands after n i went for a wee and i caught it off him and i was in agony, id never had it before im so worried about getting it in my boobs lol

 

[Lightworker]

Lol, the thrush - gential area - BF - thing made me laugh. Mainly because when I had my DD1, I didn't know anything about BFing as such, and I was also wondering how the heck can one get thrush but seriously though, it is a good example of the lack of info out there. When I had my DD1, all I was asked was "Are you BFing?" I said yes..end of.

I read some books, and they mentioned thrush, but it still didn't register in my brain lol.

 

[moomin_troll]

the other day i had a student mw say to me watch out for thrush in his mouth...followed by if his tounge is white hes got thrush. i said well no his tounge is white because its covered in milk so how the hell will i be able to tell the difference.

ive hardly got any info from anyone about breastfeeding, the first mw i saw after having corey i told her i was finding latching hard and she just looked at me n said ok....this was the same mw who didnt help me with zane and i ended up giving up after seeing her last time so i was so pissed off.

 

[summer rain]

everyone has the thrush organisms in various parts of their body anyway (including the mouth and the digestive system), they are part of the body's natural cleaning system, its only when they get unbalanced that its a problem. Its very common for babies to get oral thrush (including FF babies) because their systems can get unbalanced more easily than ours and they can then pass it onto mum either just on the nipples or in the milk ducts, also mum can get thrush of the nipples/breast due to antibiotic use and then mum and baby can pass it back and forth if not treated. It doesn't usually spread everywhere in adults; though in babies if they have oral thrush badly enough it can work their way through their digestive system and cause other symptoms such as trapped wind; bulky hard to pass poo and nappy rashes. xx

 

[summer rain]

the other day i had a student mw say to me watch out for thrush in his mouth...followed by if his tounge is white hes got thrush. i said well no his tounge is white because its covered in milk so how the hell will i be able to tell the difference.

ive hardly got any info from anyone about breastfeeding, the first mw i saw after having corey i told her i was finding latching hard and she just looked at me n said ok....this was the same mw who didnt help me with zane and i ended up giving up after seeing her last time so i was so pissed off.

yeah a lot of mws have no training or clue about BF contrary to popular belief that they go to some BF info boot camp If a baby has oral thrush there will usually be small irregular white patches on the roof and sides of the mouth as well xx

 

[summer rain]

I don't think, currently at least, it is possible to give either FF or BF an equal amount of attention. Therefore, I think more attention needs to go BFing.

I work alongside some HVs and their budgets have been cut so drastically that they are not even allowed to do standard birth visits anymore. In a situation where the government is trying to save money, and in so doing, cutting alot of crucial services, I think it is only fair to pay more attention to BFing and its related support given that
a) it is, in my experience, an area that needs alot more support and improvement
b) the DH has it in its agenda to increase BFing figures.

I do know that children's centres that are trying to (or have already) gained Baby Friendly status are NOT allowed to promote FF in any way. They cannot have any displays or paraphernalia that includes bottles or things associated with FFing. Some HVs do work out of children's centres, and they do give advice on FFing, but for the most part, that is the extent of it.

I think it is unfair, because I am sure FFing can be tough as well, and it is unfair that moms seem not to get the same type of support, but in my opinion, in an age where the main aim is to push BFing, and the govt. is spending so much (use the term loosely) on trying to promote it in various ways, it would be counter-productive to then try to allocate an equal amount of resources and support for FF.

From a personal experience point of view, when I gave birth I was the only lady on the ward BFing, and I was "left to it". I didn't mind as it was my 2nd LO, and to be fair, they initially asked if I needed help. Anyway, there was HCAs or something like that, that were supporting the FF moms, how to hold the bottles etc. So from my observation, where I am, FF gets plenty support, and sometimes almost to the detriment of BFing, because the HV teams have recently failed their BF audit, perhaps because they don't get enough exposure to BFing.

I agree it should not be the same amount but there should be some support avaliable.

Do you think the baby friendly thing would be the same for hospitals who are trying to/have gained there baby friendly status?

Yeah I also wondered about hospitals. I know some are trying to gain (or have gained) Baby Friendly status, but surely they have to have formula on the wards, so I am not sure if hospitals are held to a different standard than children's centres.

According to UNICEFs baby friendly website for the UK if mums choose to FF while at a baby friendly hospital they should be given several leaflets on safe formula feeding; and shown how to safely sterilise bottles and make them up.

From their site

I really would prefer to bottle feed

However you choose to feed your baby, staff at your local hospital and those visiting you once home should make sure you are supported and confident.

You can find out more about the different types of infant formula available in this leaflet here.

Can I be shown how to make up a feed?

If you decide to bottle feed your baby, you will be shown how to make up a feed in hospital after the birth. It is generally thought better to wait until then so that it is fresh in your mind at the time it is needed. This is because studies have shown that this information is often forgotten when the time to make your first feed for real comes round if you were shown during your pregnancy.

https://live.unicef.org.uk/BabyFriendly/Health-Professionals/Care-Pathways/Bottle_feeding/Pregnancy/

 

[Tasha]

I was going to say that FF babies can get thrush too, Morgan did a few times.

Thanks for the replies on the baby friendly status, my local hospital has become the first London hospital to get a level two UNICEF baby friendly accredication and I was given no information from them on FF so I wondered if this was the reason why (but this isnt the case from Blah's reply), mind you I received no information on BF either even though I was wanting to BF for the first time.

 

[Nibblenic]

Can I be shown how to make up a feed?

If you decide to bottle feed your baby, you will be shown how to make up a feed in hospital after the birth[/U]. It is generally thought better to wait until then so that it is fresh in your mind at the time it is needed. This is because studies have shown that this information is often forgotten when the time to make your first feed for real comes round if you were shown during your pregnancy. [/I][/B]

https://live.unicef.org.uk/BabyFriendly/Health-Professionals/Care-Pathways/Bottle_feeding/Pregnancy/

I wasnt shown how to make up a feed in hospital. They had prepared bottles and we used them. I had help every time i tried to BF including the consultant breast specialist.

I ASKED for help to feed my baby its first bottle as I had no clue what I was doing. The MW left seconds after I put it in her mouth with no advice. I fed her till she stopped which was the wrong thing to do, Lo then covered the whole room in puke! Which was distressing for her and me.

I did get help from Hv's regarding FF which milk would suit her best as she was a very sickly baby. Which teat to use with that particular brand. They watched us make up a feed to make sure we were doing it the right way.

Also for the users have said that FF is the 'easier option' I can tell you listening to a baby scream for 20-25 mintues for a bottle you are preparing from scratch at 3am is most certainly not easier that putting them straight onto the breast.

 

[Tasha]

I wasnt shown how to make up a feed either, but to be fair I wasnt shown how to bath them (which too can be dangerous, like if water is too hot) but I just got on with it. I really think (in my area at least) a lot of it is time constraints, like formula feeding is seen as quite straight forward so when a mw has to choose between showing someone how to make a bottle or help a baby latch on, or even give baby some medication or whatever, they will probably chose to help the BF (or if it is medication give medication), it doesnt mean they dont want to help the FF but just they have to prioritise.

I think what the people meant by the 'easier choice' is that on paper it can read like FF is easier (especially if you dont know anyone who has BF), like when people read of baby not latching, mum and baby getting thrush, mum getting mastitus, baby BF every 2 hours and so on, it could seem to some people that just putting a bottle in a mouth would be much easier, iykwim? Although as you say making a bottle up when baby is screaming, steralising etc means that actually (IMO) BF is the 'easier' option.

And just a side note, please no one think I am saying BF is easy, I know it isnt but for me it was easier, and I wish I stuck it out longer, maybe if there is a next time I will.

 

[lesleyann]

I was shown how to bath Kyle but never how to make a bottle up.

Also thanks for the info on thrush ladies

 

[moomin_troll]

my local hospital doesnt help with breastfeeding even when asked and it deffinatly doesnt help with bottle feeding either. i begged for help and was ignored and a girl across from me was bottle feeding, her and her baby were in tears as the mws wouldnt bring her bottles when the baby clearly needed one. it was bloody horrible

 

[Tasha]

Congratulations Moomin, sorry your experience wasnt the best. I hope that meeting your little boy has been gentle, it must be bittersweet

 

[Nibblenic]

I was also show how to bath. Not that I ever did it more than once the way they show you. With wrapping them in a towel to do thier hair, Lo hated it!
But she is still much happier submerged in water to this day, cannot tell you how many times ive had to stop a lifegaurd jumping in for her.

But I digress.

I wasnt saying BF was 'easier' either Like everything else in life there are pros and cons to both

 

[moomin_troll]

Congratulations Moomin, sorry your experience wasnt the best. I hope that meeting your little boy has been gentle, it must be bittersweet

the crap at the hospital was with zane, i got my amazing homebirth with corey hes such a good baby so hes made it very easy for me and yeah it has been very bitter sweet at times x

 

[bumpy_j]

As a counter debate - would you be outraged if hospitals solely reserved hospital formula for failed BF-ers rather than for those that choose to FF?

Personally I think it's a shame that formula isn't seen as a back up option for such a high proportion of people the brestfeeding percentages in this country are so low. If I wasnt so ill after labour and had to stay in the hospital, I might never have learnt to latch on Joel. No one told me what to do at an ante natal class (and I went to NCT ones which are very pro BF!) no one said to do nose to nipple, or showed me the different holds. If after birth someone gave me a balanced BF and FF guide I definitely would've seen FF as the easier sounding option - making a bottle up in five minutes rather than being woken up every hour to try and latch on an uninterested baby all day and night? after a 27hr labour? Yes please. If BFing wasn't thrown down my throat I might not have gone with it and now i'm so grateful I did.

 

[bumpy_j]

Congratulations Moomin, sorry your experience wasnt the best. I hope that meeting your little boy has been gentle, it must be bittersweet

the crap at the hospital was with zane, i got my amazing homebirth with corey hes such a good baby so hes made it very easy for me and yeah it has been very bitter sweet at times x

i only noticed that! i'm crap haha well done girl x

 

[Nibblenic]

As a counter debate - would you be outraged if hospitals solely reserved hospital formula for failed BF-ers rather than for those that choose to FF? .

Actually many hospitals do no provide milk as a matter of course and only to failed BFers.
Tbh I plan on FF my next baby. I also plan on taking the formula I want to use with me. As the hospital only provides two types, neither of which i will be using.

 

[Blah11]

Yes it is the national health service and it is about promoting good health. Therefore a mother needs to know how to make up a bottle, sterilise etc as if it isn't done properly a babies health will suffer x

Yes and no one has said they shouldn't.

 

[indy and lara]

Going round in circles. I am getting a bit frustrated as no-one has said that FF should be set adrift with no information at all. There are just differing views about how it should be done and how it is balanced with the NHS policy of promoting BF.