Refreshing talk today with HV's regarding BFing

[MrsPOP]

I don't think it's the same, I really don't.

'put 2 scoops and Xamount of mls of water' is easy to interpret.

If someone is having latching issues, they have to be SHOWN how to do it.

idk, ive never heard of someone having to give up formula feeding and go onto breastfeeding cos it was too difficult/confusing/bad latch etc Besides, how to make and sterilise a bottle is pretty samey across the board (amounts will differ) but every single BF relationship is different.

what it sounds like you're saying is that you refuse to believe that there could be a situation where a FFer could need some assistance as its so easy to do...

Well no, i don't think that. But it's not rocket science

Yes but when you've gone a week without sleep, a terrible labour and birth and a child being ill due to poor BFing support and you're so exhausted you can barely think...its not as easy as you'd think!

Im an intelligent woman, but that moment when I had to make my first feed was so utterly overwhelming after everything I'd been through. Like I said, thank goodness my mum was there to explain otherwise goodness knows what I would have done in my exhausted state!!!

 

[fairy1984]

there are SO many situations, as above, for all kinds of newborn situations where you need support.

you only need to pop into the baby section to see the vast array of questions in there about things which women "know" how to do but need some reassurance or a bit of advice on.

position of baby when sleeping/is swaddling safe/is baby having not enough or too much sleep etc etc.

I think that sometimes women know the answer to the thread they start but they need reassurance, or just to hear that other mothers are doing things the same way as them.

if you're a member of a forum then great! if not then you can feel very alone and FF (FEEDING your baby) is such an important part of a new borns life that of course you want reassurance and the ability to ask for information and to feel like you CAN ask for information from a HV

when you know how to put together a bottle correctly and the reasons behind not making up bottles in advance etc then it may seem easy but the first few times you do it, you doubt yourself and double and triple check it and it'd be nice to have been shown how to do it in the first place so you feel confident that you're doing things correctly and safely

 

[special_kala]

I don't think it's the same, I really don't.

'put 2 scoops and Xamount of mls of water' is easy to interpret.

If someone is having latching issues, they have to be SHOWN how to do it.

idk, ive never heard of someone having to give up formula feeding and go onto breastfeeding cos it was too difficult/confusing/bad latch etc Besides, how to make and sterilise a bottle is pretty samey across the board (amounts will differ) but every single BF relationship is different.

what it sounds like you're saying is that you refuse to believe that there could be a situation where a FFer could need some assistance as its so easy to do...

Well no, i don't think that. But it's not rocket science

To be fair neither is bf but we expect a whol lot more support.

 

[Blah11]

I think its more complicated and support is needed more for BF as its mentally very demanding, especially as you have a newborn baby who cries lots.

 

[special_kala]

Ffeeders need just as muc support its just a different kind.

 

[aliss]

I've done all 4, BF/exclusive pump/combo feed/FF, yes FF is def. the easiest one to do in the beginning/to learn, IMO, but some women will choose FF no matter what and I think it's a health care provider's responsibility to at least provide some basic user-friendly accessible information that is simple for anyone (including those who are ESL, uneducated, or just "don't grasp it").

Not to compare formula with sex, but it's sort of like providing understandable safe sex information to the masses - yes, there are some people that we think probably shouldn't be having sex (ie. a youth), but if they are going to do it, at least reserve judgment aside and provide them with information in a safe and understandable manner.

Like I said, I'm not from the UK so I guess I don't completely get the issue but I think if a government program claims to provide equal treatment to the masses then they should at least allow accessible (again, available and understandable) information for those who make the alternative choice of formula.

Where I am from, we also have nursing clinics just for prostitutes and drug addicts (including safe injection sites) based on a policy of less-harm (rather than complete abstinence), so I suppose I come from that perspective too...

I hope that makes sense.

 

[indy and lara]

Why do these type of threads always come down to 'FF need more support', no 'BF need more support'?

Feeding a newborn baby can be tough for all new mums. Post labour is tough for most women as they are exhausted and living on adrenalin for the most part. I still am quite unsure about the support that FF feel they need. For me the readily available leaflets were enough information. They were readily available from my hospital. As I said before FF was covered in my ante-natal class. It was also covered in considerable depth in the AN reunion our hv held. Surely if you know you are going to FF then you would have read the leaflets and got the bottles and steriliser out to have a look already? Obviously if you have to change from BF to FF you would not necessarily be that prepared.

 

[indy and lara]

Like I said, I'm not from the UK so I guess I don't completely get the issue but I think if a government program claims to provide equal treatment to the masses then they should at least allow accessible (again, available and understandable) information for those who make the alternative choice of formula.

.

But the information is there. I cannot believe that NHS Lothian (my health board) are the only one in the UK who do offer the information you are talking about for FF. When I think about it we even went to a baby group at the weighing clinic for a while where the BFing support/ family health nurse ran it and she gave FF support too.

 

[MrsPOP]

Aliss you re right. I wanted to make the comparison between sex education too last night but was too tired to explain properly

Yes, BF is more emotionally demanding and is physically demanding. Yes it needs more support.

However as I said last night, FF is there, women will continue to choose it or have to use it. It will NEVER cease to exist. So why on earth should info about it be restricted? Noone is asking for formula feeding workshops, or FF Peer Support Workers. We dont want a La Formulae League, we dont want posters 'promoting' FF in hospitals or clinics....we just want basic information/guidance to be given without restriction, without prejudice, without judgement!

The arguement about what is easier is completely pointless. We know BF is harder. But dont FF deserve to be treated with the respect BF mothers are treated in general and have access to simple information about their choice of feeding method? Not promotion....INFORMATION!!!!!

Why should FF be treated like a dirty little secret? As a mum who desperately wanted to BF and couldnt, it makes me feel even worse than I already do to have to face what could be interpreted as judgement from the Health Service that failed me in BF support.

Jeez, walk a mile in my shoes or others who went through BF hell before you say I shouldnt be allowed advice and support in feeding my child.

 

[indy and lara]

The arguement about what is easier is completely pointless. We know BF is harder. But dont FF deserve to be treated with the respect BF mothers are treated in general and have access to simple information about their choice of feeding method? Not promotion....INFORMATION!!!!!

Why should FF be treated like a dirty little secret? As a mum who desperately wanted to BF and couldnt, it makes me feel even worse than I already do to have to face what could be interpreted as judgement from the Health Service that failed me in BF support.

Jeez, walk a mile in my shoes or others who went through BF hell before you say I shouldnt be allowed advice and support in feeding my child.

Honestly, outwith the medical community there is often very little respect for BFers. People comment that it is pointless to try, not worth the bother, stare when people feed, comment, snigger and so on. It is certainly not regarded as a good thing by huge parts of the community. This is not all one sided.

 

[MrsPOP]

The arguement about what is easier is completely pointless. We know BF is harder. But dont FF deserve to be treated with the respect BF mothers are treated in general and have access to simple information about their choice of feeding method? Not promotion....INFORMATION!!!!!

Why should FF be treated like a dirty little secret? As a mum who desperately wanted to BF and couldnt, it makes me feel even worse than I already do to have to face what could be interpreted as judgement from the Health Service that failed me in BF support.

Jeez, walk a mile in my shoes or others who went through BF hell before you say I shouldnt be allowed advice and support in feeding my child.

Honestly, outwith the medical community there is often very little respect for BFers. People comment that it is pointless to try, not worth the bother, stare when people feed, comment, snigger and so on. It is certainly not regarded as a good thing by huge parts of the community. This is not all one sided.

Im fully aware of that, if you read my first post on this thread I tried to BF and was excited about it. Did I get shouted at by my parents for even trying? Yes I damn well did and I damn well shouted them down because I was going to try no matter what anyone said. However apart from them I never got any negatvity for wanting to BF.

It doesnt matter if its not all one sided. This isnt about tit for tat (excuse the pun). Its not about how the general community perceive BF or FF, its about the information the medical community give mothers about feeding and saying FF mothers should only receive info (and the very basic info at that) if they ask for it is discriminatory and judgemental. Its treating FF mothers as a second class because they cant BF or choose not too. And that is not FAIR.

Ive been deemed a high risk for PND since I was 20 weeks pregnant &(thankfully Ive not developed it which is astonishing considering what Ive been through) and on chats about feeding I was encouraged to BF but fortunately along the way, I met a few sensible CMWs who, on understanding my history, told me although they encourage me to BF to be aware of how difficult it is and if I do run into the problems I eventually ran in to, to not feel bad if I had to switch to FF. When I met my HV I was expecting to be judged for having to FF and she was amazing and realistic. That sympathetic understanding of my circumstances from the health care profession was so surprising but goodness did it help me to come to terms with FF.

 

[indy and lara]

The arguement about what is easier is completely pointless. We know BF is harder. But dont FF deserve to be treated with the respect BF mothers are treated in general and have access to simple information about their choice of feeding method? Not promotion....INFORMATION!!!!!

Why should FF be treated like a dirty little secret? As a mum who desperately wanted to BF and couldnt, it makes me feel even worse than I already do to have to face what could be interpreted as judgement from the Health Service that failed me in BF support.

Jeez, walk a mile in my shoes or others who went through BF hell before you say I shouldnt be allowed advice and support in feeding my child.

Honestly, outwith the medical community there is often very little respect for BFers. People comment that it is pointless to try, not worth the bother, stare when people feed, comment, snigger and so on. It is certainly not regarded as a good thing by huge parts of the community. This is not all one sided.

Im fully aware of that, if you read my first post on this thread I tried to BF and was excited about it. Did I get shouted at by my parents for even trying? Yes I damn well did and I damn well shouted them down because I was going to try no matter what anyone said. However apart from them I never got any negatvity for wanting to BF.

It doesnt matter if its not all one sided. This isnt about tit for tat (excuse the pun). Its not about how the general community perceive BF or FF, its about the information the medical community give mothers about feeding and saying FF mothers should only receive info (and the very basic info at that) if they ask for it is discriminatory and judgemental. Its treating FF mothers as a second class because they cant BF or choose not too. And that is not FAIR.

Ive been deemed a high risk for PND since I was 20 weeks pregnant &(thankfully Ive not developed it which is astonishing considering what Ive been through) and on chats about feeding I was encouraged to BF but fortunately along the way, I met a few sensible CMWs who, on understanding my history, told me although they encourage me to BF to be aware of how difficult it is and if I do run into the problems I eventually ran in to, to not feel bad if I had to switch to FF. When I met my HV I was expecting to be judged for having to FF and she was amazing and realistic. That sympathetic understanding of my circumstances from the health care profession was so surprising but goodness did it help me to come to terms with FF.

I am well aware that it is not tit for tat and have read the whole thread. I also said a few pages back that it was not about who it was harder for. I am not having a go, I have asked over and over again what information people want but am yet to really see an answer to that question really. Lots of information is available from our health board if you ask. Same with BF info, it is there if you ask.

 

[MrsPOP]

The arguement about what is easier is completely pointless. We know BF is harder. But dont FF deserve to be treated with the respect BF mothers are treated in general and have access to simple information about their choice of feeding method? Not promotion....INFORMATION!!!!!

Why should FF be treated like a dirty little secret? As a mum who desperately wanted to BF and couldnt, it makes me feel even worse than I already do to have to face what could be interpreted as judgement from the Health Service that failed me in BF support.

Jeez, walk a mile in my shoes or others who went through BF hell before you say I shouldnt be allowed advice and support in feeding my child.

Honestly, outwith the medical community there is often very little respect for BFers. People comment that it is pointless to try, not worth the bother, stare when people feed, comment, snigger and so on. It is certainly not regarded as a good thing by huge parts of the community. This is not all one sided.

Im fully aware of that, if you read my first post on this thread I tried to BF and was excited about it. Did I get shouted at by my parents for even trying? Yes I damn well did and I damn well shouted them down because I was going to try no matter what anyone said. However apart from them I never got any negatvity for wanting to BF.

It doesnt matter if its not all one sided. This isnt about tit for tat (excuse the pun). Its not about how the general community perceive BF or FF, its about the information the medical community give mothers about feeding and saying FF mothers should only receive info (and the very basic info at that) if they ask for it is discriminatory and judgemental. Its treating FF mothers as a second class because they cant BF or choose not too. And that is not FAIR.

Ive been deemed a high risk for PND since I was 20 weeks pregnant &(thankfully Ive not developed it which is astonishing considering what Ive been through) and on chats about feeding I was encouraged to BF but fortunately along the way, I met a few sensible CMWs who, on understanding my history, told me although they encourage me to BF to be aware of how difficult it is and if I do run into the problems I eventually ran in to, to not feel bad if I had to switch to FF. When I met my HV I was expecting to be judged for having to FF and she was amazing and realistic. That sympathetic understanding of my circumstances from the health care profession was so surprising but goodness did it help me to come to terms with FF.

I am well aware that it is not tit for tat and have read the whole thread. I also said a few pages back that it was not about who it was harder for. I am not having a go, I have asked over and over again what information people want but am yet to really see an answer to that question really. Lots of information is available from our health board if you ask. Same with BF info, it is there if you ask.

We're not talking about that. We're talking about information given to FF mums by HVs and MWs being restricted to only being given when asked and also the information is very basic (ie: not being able to recommend a certain type for a refluxy baby etc).

Not everyone has access to the internet to look at health boards and forums. Not everyone is able to purchase pregnancy and baby books. Not everyone is able to access antenatal classes (for example, I couldnt make the NHS ones and couldnt make the NCT ones, some people cant afford the NCT ones).

The basic point of this thread is mothers who FF only can access advice re: FF when they ASK. And also HVs and MWs are restricted in the info they can give. Im aware not all trusts are the same and some do give info leaflets to pregnant women etc without asking. I never got any info on FF but had plenty of BF leaflets given to me. But in general, the restriction of information is there

And that restriction is discriminatory and prejudiced against those who FF.

People have answered what info FF mums need quite clearly actually as you would see from previous posts.

Info on making up bottles correctly and storing bottles are vitally important as if done incorrectly it can be harmful to babies. Yes it is on the back of the tin but imagine a mum whose own mother FF her. Back then, her mum could make up the entire days bottles. The new mum may ask her mum about bottle making and think making 12-14 hours worth of bottles is ok and choose to ignore the tin because she trusts her mother's advice...when it isnt ok at all!

Like I said, we're not asking for promotions, for workshops, peer support workers or anything like that. But to be able to access the basic information regarding FF from the HCPs that guide us through pregnancy and early childhood surely is an unreasonable ask? To restrict information is not only potentially dangerous to those who may not comprehend the new guidance for FF but also unfair and prejudiced against those who FF. I think its the principle of the matter.

 

[Blah11]

People have already pointed out reasons WHY the NHS can't recommend (ie PROMOTE) a certain brand
It does come down to the certain NHS trust clearly because Im under the same as indy and I too received info on both BF and FF. When MWs and HVs come round for home visits, why do people not ask then?

 

[special_kala]

I know someone who was told by ahv on a home visit that they wernt allowed to give them info on formula or making up bottles.

 

[Blah11]

well, thats just plain ridiculous. i just dont agree with loads of info on formula feeding when someone is pregnant. once the baby is born and is already being bottle fed, its nonsensical not to give info on how to make up bottles or w/e.

 

[leighbaby]

It seems to me that people want to know only certain things - only how to make it up safely...not about what happens if it isn't made up safely - i.e the REASONs why it needs to be made in a certain way...let alone the potential problems that are uncontrolable.

((Loving the 'blame' culture going on too...it has to be the NHSs fault...no-one elses ))

 

[LoraLoo]

Aren't all mothers-to-be, given the NHS 'The Pregnancy Book' at their booking in? We get one here anyway. Page 115-119 is all about formula feeding, how to make bottles safely, how to store them, ingredients, risks, and so on

 

[MrsPOP]

I actually dont blame the NHS entirely (I work for it)...I blame the government.

Recommending a type of formula in certain circumstances is not promoting it. I prescribe medications. So if I prescribe a certain laxative such as senna rather than lactulose...its not because Im promoting senna, its because I think it works better than lactulose. The OP mentioned a circumstance where a HV said a certain milk (think it was aptamil comfort) would better for a baby struggling on another milk but couldnt tell the mum. If she told the mum, its not out of promotion but in the child's best interest!!!!!!!

 

[MrsPOP]

Aren't all mothers-to-be, given the NHS 'The Pregnancy Book' at their booking in? We get one here anyway. Page 115-119 is all about formula feeding, how to make bottles safely, how to store them, ingredients, risks, and so on

That'd be great if they hand them out! I got mine after my baby was born because they didnt have any in at booking and my MW kept forgetting tp give me one when I kept asking. Same as Bounty packs, I never got my pregnancy ones!