Risking a gender debate...

[Rainbow82]

Gender absolutely exists. We couldn't have babies without a male/female genitals. Our chromosomes support that. Honestly, not too sure if I buy into people's perceived genders but it's not my battle to fight. I will say, though, that I take issue with the LGBT movement labeling straight, regular folk like myself. No, I am not "cis-gendered" as I don't "label" myself that way. I'm female, that's it. You can think, feel, and call yourselves anything you want though. That's YOUR label. I don't have to agree with it. er.

Im not sure if it's just me but I actually find this a little offensive. So far this has been a friendly debate with nothing needed about how you label yourself however, I'm not sure cis-gendered could be considered a label, more of a description of someone whose sex matches their gender. It's funny though how you are happy to label yourself as one of those straight, regular folk. A few corrections for you though, it is entirely possibly to conceive without male/female genitalia and many babies are born each year through IVF with ICSI. What is needed are male and female sex cells, sperm and eggs. There are also disorders where people's chromosomes do not match their genitalia, assigning sex is not always as simple as you assume.

 

[SpringerS]

A few corrections for you though, it is entirely possibly to conceive without male/female genitalia and many babies are born each year through IVF with ICSI. What is needed are male and female sex cells, sperm and eggs.

Totally off topic but super interesting, imo. We may not necessarily even need male and female sex cells in the future. For over a decade scientists have been able to produce small mammals with 2 mothers and no father. And over 5 years ago they were able to produce a mouse with 2 fathers and no mother. It's a long way off being available for humans, but it's almost certainly in our future.

 

[adrie]

I know I have decent reading comprehension. You are right, I identify as female and straight. As most people identify in some way or the other; I'm not some rarity. I don't, however, identify as cis-gendered, which is offensive to me.

Yes, in relation to humans, male sperm and female eggs are required to conceive human babies, which, as we know, come from males and female humans. Not sure how spitting hairs is proving me wrong?

We are talking about gender and sex in general, not the exception. Some women are born with extra parts, some none at all. Are they still female? Yes, as they have the female chromosomes. But they cannot conceive children.

 

[jessmke]

The difference with the uniform of course being that everyone is required to wear the same thing as per the terms of the school. Not the same thing.

Isn't it okay to challenge what's "socially acceptable" if it's arbitrary, outdated, or needlessly limiting? Some people would argue that nursing in public is not socially acceptable and TBH, even as an advocate for nursing in public, I think there's more grounds to argue that one than not wanting a boy to wear a dress.

But boys are required to wear trousers, so it is the same thing. A boy couldnt just rock up to school in a school skirt because he wanted to and his Mum said it was ok. That's not how life works im afraid, whether we agree with it or not, and I can't see it changing any time soon. .

Actually it depends on where you live. In my area anyone is allowed to wear any part of the school uniform. Girls can wear pants/shirt and boys could wear skirt/dress if they wanted to. Schools are not allowed to dictate which items of the uniform can be worn by which gender.

 

[LoraLoo]

The difference with the uniform of course being that everyone is required to wear the same thing as per the terms of the school. Not the same thing.

Isn't it okay to challenge what's "socially acceptable" if it's arbitrary, outdated, or needlessly limiting? Some people would argue that nursing in public is not socially acceptable and TBH, even as an advocate for nursing in public, I think there's more grounds to argue that one than not wanting a boy to wear a dress.

But boys are required to wear trousers, so it is the same thing. A boy couldnt just rock up to school in a school skirt because he wanted to and his Mum said it was ok. That's not how life works im afraid, whether we agree with it or not, and I can't see it changing any time soon. .

Actually it depends on where you live. In my area anyone is allowed to wear any part of the school uniform. Girls can wear pants/shirt and boys could wear skirt/dress if they wanted to. Schools are not allowed to dictate which items of the uniform can be worn by which gender.

Here they are, and do.

 

[miraclemomma]

I've been thinking a lot about it. I also don't know if I would buy my daughter clothes from a boys department. Just wouldn't. I also generally don't take the boys out in fancy dress costumes unless we're going to a fancy dress party, and that's down to practicality. As other oriole have said its fine in the house.
I have also been thinking about why we want to blur the lines on gender? Why can't we be happy that boys are boys and girls are girls! Girls things are awesome and boys things are awesome, but we are almost a different species. Physically, emotionally, our hormones make us react differently to things, and our brains are wired differently. Why not raise my boys to be proud to be men? In the same way that we raise our daughters proud to be women? This isn't saying people who are comfortable with their boys in dresses aren't raising them to be proud men for the record! It's just a thought! Xx

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

I've been thinking a lot about it. I also don't know if I would buy my daughter clothes from a boys department. Just wouldn't. I also generally don't take the boys out in fancy dress costumes unless we're going to a fancy dress party, and that's down to practicality. As other oriole have said its fine in the house.
I have also been thinking about why we want to blur the lines on gender? Why can't we be happy that boys are boys and girls are girls! Girls things are awesome and boys things are awesome, but we are almost a different species. Physically, emotionally, our hormones make us react differently to things, and our brains are wired differently. Why not raise my boys to be proud to be men? In the same way that we raise our daughters proud to be women? This isn't saying people who are comfortable with their boys in dresses aren't raising them to be proud men for the record! It's just a thought! Xx

I agree. Women are cyclic ad we are awesome. Males are super awesome too, but Genders ARE different. Equal rights, yes...but we are different mind and body.

 

[AngelofTroy]

I think it's hard to compare as we all have different opinions on how our children dress regardless of the gender issue. For example, I have some friends who always pick their child's outfit the night before, or match it to siblings, and other friends who's kids choose every part of their outfit themselves. If you are used to having a lot of say then a dress might feel more of a leap, so might odd socks or a batmat outfit!

It depends a lot on the child's interest in what they wear too. My son couldn't have cared less what he wore 6 months ago, and I usually chose his clothes every day and they were relatively matching and sensible... Fast forward to now at 3.5 and he is very insistent on his own style, he wears waistcoats and bow ties most days, likes girl's leggings and will never allow his socks to match.. He puts a lot of thought into his outfits, often declaring that he needs his dinosaur waistcoat today because the colours go with the cuffs on his trousers or such like! If he wanted to wear a dress to the shops now then we're pretty used to some glances at his attire and I know he is confident in his decisions, so no problem.

https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g304/Melon1687/IMG_20160324_094642_zps8e9hnllp.jpg

 

[SpringerS]

I've been thinking a lot about it. I also don't know if I would buy my daughter clothes from a boys department. Just wouldn't. I also generally don't take the boys out in fancy dress costumes unless we're going to a fancy dress party, and that's down to practicality. As other oriole have said its fine in the house.
I have also been thinking about why we want to blur the lines on gender? Why can't we be happy that boys are boys and girls are girls! Girls things are awesome and boys things are awesome, but we are almost a different species. Physically, emotionally, our hormones make us react differently to things, and our brains are wired differently. Why not raise my boys to be proud to be men? In the same way that we raise our daughters proud to be women? This isn't saying people who are comfortable with their boys in dresses aren't raising them to be proud men for the record! It's just a thought! Xx

Because while there are differences between males and females most of the gender divide we experience is a social construct. If you don't tell a child that some toys/clothes/cartoons/etc are for boys and some are for girls, they won't create those divides for themselves. My son's favourite things are cars, superheroes and Star Wars. But he also loves playing kitchen, dolls, My Little Pony, etc. Nobody has ever told him that his penis means that he can't love many of the things he loves and as those gender distinctions are completely false he's obviously not aware of them. Nobody wants to pretend boys and girls are the same but it is ridiculous and quite damaging to enforce gender stereotypes that are entirely socially constructed because we limit our children's exploration of who they are and what they love for no logical reason.

 

[malia]

I think it's hard to compare as we all have different opinions on how our children dress regardless of the gender issue. For example, I have some friends who always pick their child's outfit the night before, or match it to siblings, and other friends who's kids choose every part of their outfit themselves. If you are used to having a lot of say then a dress might feel more of a leap, so might odd socks or a batmat outfit!

It depends a lot on the child's interest in what they wear too. My son couldn't have cared less what he wore 6 months ago, and I usually chose his clothes every day and they were relatively matching and sensible... Fast forward to now at 3.5 and he is very insistent on his own style, he wears waistcoats and bow ties most days, likes girl's leggings and will never allow his socks to match.. He puts a lot of thought into his outfits, often declaring that he needs his dinosaur waistcoat today because the colours go with the cuffs on his trousers or such like! If he wanted to wear a dress to the shops now then we're pretty used to some glances at his attire and I know he is confident in his decisions, so no problem.

https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g304/Melon1687/IMG_20160324_094642_zps8e9hnllp.jpg

He is adorable!! So handsome. I love that he is so confident and has such a distinct style already.

I've been thinking a lot about it. I also don't know if I would buy my daughter clothes from a boys department. Just wouldn't. I also generally don't take the boys out in fancy dress costumes unless we're going to a fancy dress party, and that's down to practicality. As other oriole have said its fine in the house.
I have also been thinking about why we want to blur the lines on gender? Why can't we be happy that boys are boys and girls are girls! Girls things are awesome and boys things are awesome, but we are almost a different species. Physically, emotionally, our hormones make us react differently to things, and our brains are wired differently. Why not raise my boys to be proud to be men? In the same way that we raise our daughters proud to be women? This isn't saying people who are comfortable with their boys in dresses aren't raising them to be proud men for the record! It's just a thought! Xx

Because while there are differences between males and females most of the gender divide we experience is a social construct. If you don't tell a child that some toys/clothes/cartoons/etc are for boys and some are for girls, they won't create those divides for themselves. My son's favourite things are cars, superheroes and Star Wars. But he also loves playing kitchen, dolls, My Little Pony, etc. Nobody has ever told him that his penis means that he can't love many of the things he loves and as those gender distinctions are completely false he's obviously not aware of them. Nobody wants to pretend boys and girls are the same but it is ridiculous and quite damaging to enforce gender stereotypes that are entirely socially constructed because we limit our children's exploration of who they are and what they love for no logical reason.

You wrote exactly what I was about to.
Furthermore, what does it mean to teach boys to be men and teach girls to be women? Does it mean teaching the boys that if they must love football etc, and girls that they must love girly clothes and dolls, otherwise they are somehow different or inadequate?
It also seems pretty regressive. Women have been trying to escape the gender stereotypes which paint us as weaker than men, designed for the kitchen, etc for generations. Many men have struggled with not living up to the macho stereotypes expected of them. Why perpetuate any kind of divide or different expectations between the two genders if we want equality and our children to be free from such pressures?
As pp said, why limit children in what they are able to enjoy/experience.

 

[staralfur]

I've been thinking a lot about it. I also don't know if I would buy my daughter clothes from a boys department. Just wouldn't. I also generally don't take the boys out in fancy dress costumes unless we're going to a fancy dress party, and that's down to practicality. As other oriole have said its fine in the house.
I have also been thinking about why we want to blur the lines on gender? Why can't we be happy that boys are boys and girls are girls! Girls things are awesome and boys things are awesome, but we are almost a different species. Physically, emotionally, our hormones make us react differently to things, and our brains are wired differently. Why not raise my boys to be proud to be men? In the same way that we raise our daughters proud to be women? This isn't saying people who are comfortable with their boys in dresses aren't raising them to be proud men for the record! It's just a thought! Xx

Because while there are differences between males and females most of the gender divide we experience is a social construct. If you don't tell a child that some toys/clothes/cartoons/etc are for boys and some are for girls, they won't create those divides for themselves. My son's favourite things are cars, superheroes and Star Wars. But he also loves playing kitchen, dolls, My Little Pony, etc. Nobody has ever told him that his penis means that he can't love many of the things he loves and as those gender distinctions are completely false he's obviously not aware of them. Nobody wants to pretend boys and girls are the same but it is ridiculous and quite damaging to enforce gender stereotypes that are entirely socially constructed because we limit our children's exploration of who they are and what they love for no logical reason.

Yes, absolutely.

My girl loves tons of girly stuff. It comes naturally to her. But so does liking sports, dinosaurs, and The Hulk. I'm not trying to "blur" the lines of gender. I just think there are lines arbitrarily placed that, when they interfere with what an individual child is interested in, don't need to be adhered to. I'm not going to sit here and tell my daughter she can't wear her Thomas shirt anymore because we got in the boy's section. That's not a "line" I think is important or relevant or should even be there in the first place.

Plus you're right, miraclemomma, girls and boys are different right down to their biological state so why do people think that a variance from a socially implemented gender stereotype makes any difference at all?

I am raising my daughter to be proud that she's a girl and will one day be proud to be a woman, and part of that is having the confidence and ability to make her own choices and follow her own happiness, whether that means she wants to be a ballet dancer or a hockey player. Because women have been fighting to erase those limiting gender stereotypes for a long time and I have no interest in telling my daughter that she can or can't do something because she's a girl.

 

[Larkspur]

I have also been thinking about why we want to blur the lines on gender? Why can't we be happy that boys are boys and girls are girls! Girls things are awesome and boys things are awesome, but we are almost a different species. Physically, emotionally, our hormones make us react differently to things, and our brains are wired differently. Why not raise my boys to be proud to be men? In the same way that we raise our daughters proud to be women? This isn't saying people who are comfortable with their boys in dresses aren't raising them to be proud men for the record! It's just a thought! Xx

But we are all wired individually as people, not based on our chromosones or hormones. We're nothing like a different species.

Men's brains are not 'wired differently' to women's. There is a category of thought that there are 'masculine brains' (more logical/risk-taking) or 'feminine brains' (more emotional/nurturing) but the more we learn about the brain, the more it's apparent that this is a spectrum, and that anyone can have a brain that tends towards one end or the other, ie you can have men who have very 'feminine' brains, and women who have very 'masculine brains'.

I happen to have a brain that is much more traditionally masculine, although I am cis-gendered (a descriptor that I'm struggling to understand why anyone would find offensive, any more than, say, Caucasian... in fact, because it literally has just one interpretation, it's even less problematic than Caucasian, or even 'straight'). Does that mean I'm less of a woman, or somehow not proud of being a woman?

 

[miraclemomma]

No. Not at all. I grew up without my mom. She died when j was young. I was raised by my dad and he had a lot of support from his rugby team which in turn means I basically had 15 dads! For that reason I feel I have a better ability to talk to men than women. I also am very proud to be a woman! I love rugby and motorbikes. I also love makeup, shoes and shopping. But I'm not alone in thinking that men and women are wired differently. Obviously we are all wired differently as human beings, hence why we all have different opinions on this topic, and as such there isn't a right and wrong answer. But men are from Mars women are from Venus?! A recent theory I read about the human brain suggested that women are more likely to connect all aspects of their lives together while men separate things in to categories. I'm sure there are plenty of examples where this doesn't follow. But there are just as many examples where it does?! Please don't take personal offence.

 

[Zephram]

Talking about men's and women's brains being wired differently is not really relevant as that isn't really how it works. Gender is not the same thing as biological sex. Gender is a continuum and people do not fall into a black and white category where you are either a man or a woman. You can identify anywhere on the spectrum from a biological male who identifies as a man to a biological male who identifies as a woman and everything in between. And vice versa for biological females. The key point here is that given that gender is a social construct and not necessarily related to your biological sex, you can identify as a different gender to the one that traditionally 'matches' with your biological sex. You are not born with a gender, gender is constructed by society. Boys and girls are taught they should behave in a certain way because that's how society dictates people behave, not because they are born knowing boys wear pants and girls wear dresses. There is absolutely no genetic basis for that and it makes no scientific sense.

 

[Larkspur]

But men are from Mars women are from Venus?! A recent theory I read about the human brain suggested that women are more likely to connect all aspects of their lives together while men separate things in to categories. I'm sure there are plenty of examples where this doesn't follow. But there are just as many examples where it does?! Please don't take personal offence.

But here's the nub of it right here. Perhaps there is a tendency for women to approach certain things one way and men to approach them another, but it's nowhere near a hard-and-fast rule.

Brain-scans show there's a tendency for left-handers to use both sides of their brains more equally than right-handers, but you can't say "left-handers are wired differently to right-handers".

All sorts of things affect how we use our brains – patterning that's laid down during our early years, genetics, disposition, handedness, hormones, mental health, intelligence. Gender may be one aspect for sure, but to suggest that it means men and women are "wired differently" is just as arbitrary as saying "Only children and children with siblings are just wired differently" or even "black people and white people are just wired differently". It's nowhere near as straight-forward as that.

 

[Button#]

Talking about men's and women's brains being wired differently is not really relevant as that isn't really how it works. Gender is not the same thing as biological sex. Gender is a continuum and people do not fall into a black and white category where you are either a man or a woman. You can identify anywhere on the spectrum from a biological male who identifies as a man to a biological male who identifies as a woman and everything in between. And vice versa for biological females. The key point here is that given that gender is a social construct and not necessarily related to your biological sex, you can identify as a different gender to the one that traditionally 'matches' with your biological sex. You are not born with a gender, gender is constructed by society. Boys and girls are taught they should behave in a certain way because that's how society dictates people behave, not because they are born knowing boys wear pants and girls wear dresses. There is absolutely no genetic basis for that and it makes no scientific sense.

A good example of gender being a social construct is that a long time ago pink was considered the colour for boys and blue the colour for girls. A lot of people assume that girls are drawn to anything pink but I imagine they thought the opposite back then and really it's all down to parents perceptions. Also they used to dress little boys in dresses while they were teeny.

 

[AngelUK]

Yes that is very true but I doubt that back then children were given much of a choice in what they wore. And I do know a lot of tom boyish mums who to their secret dismay have little girls who go for anything pink like moths to the flame.

 

[Rainbow82]

All the studies that have been done showing how our brains are wired are incredibly interesting but as far as I'm aware they are all done on adults who have been through puberty and have different hormones etc that may also have affected that. When it comes to children of 3/4 years old they look the same, if they are wearing clothes the only way to really tell gender is by the hair style and that is down to the parents at that age. At that age gender is something that society really decided based on sex but the definition of what makes someone male and female is different in different cultures and has been altering slightly for ages, for example it wasn't that long ago that it would have been unthinkable for women to wear trousers. I think everyone should bring up their children to be proud strong girls or boys but it is possible to be a proud strong boy who sometimes wants to wear a sparkly dress. And why wouldn't they? Sparkly frilly clothes may not always be practical but they are a lot of fun on occasion 😉

 

[morri]

Gender absolutely exists. We couldn't have babies without a male/female genitals. Our chromosomes support that. Honestly, not too sure if I buy into people's perceived genders but it's not my battle to fight. I will say, though, that I take issue with the LGBT movement labeling straight, regular folk like myself. No, I am not "cis-gendered" as I don't "label" myself that way. I'm female, that's it. You can think, feel, and call yourselves anything you want though. That's YOUR label. I don't have to agree with it.

To be honest, other people can think and be whatever they want to and call themselves whatever they want, but no, I would not dress my very young son in a dress or buy him very girly clothes. If we had a son and he grew up that way and continued to want to dress femininely, even perhaps transition, that would be his choice. I would support his right to make that choice. His father would not support that, however.

Having said all of that, I wouldn't say we overly dress our daughter girly. Her father probably is more likely to dress her more girly than me actually. I would put her into "boys" clothes as many of them are neutral in my opinion. Some girls stuff is so over the top girly, some of it even gaudy to me. I'm mostly casual with our daughter. She has a good mix of toys and interests; from both girly dolls and things to construction gear, cars, etc. Whatever she likes is what we will buy her.

you are confusing sex with gender.

Not so fast -- sex differences in the brain are overblown

genderstereotypes in math develop as early as in 2nd gradel

https://phys.org/news/2011-12-parents-gender-nonconforming-transgender-children.html