Risking a gender debate...

[SpringerS]

It's pretty simple, but very disturbing, why so many people think it's ok for a girl to like 'boy' things but not for a boy to like 'girl' things. And that's because on a subconscious level we think the girl is 'aiming up' by wanting to be like boys while the 'girly' boy is aiming down. I used to fall into that trap myself when I was younger. I was a tomboy and I thought that made me better than other girls who liked 'stupid girly' things. I didn't realise what a disservice I was doing my own gender. It's like the opening lyrics to the Madonna song, What it Feel Like for a Girl.

Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading

 

[morri]

Gender doesnt have to be taught. Children will figure their gender out themselves. They can be told that some people are bigots about it...

 

[.Mrs.B.]

It's interesting, lots of people have said they wouldn't allow it so that they don't get comments/reaction from other people.

Whilst I understand that in some respect, I feel it's is not our job to protect our children from the outside world, but to feel empowered to live as themselves within in it, to be able to find a way to deal with negative responses without changing who they are, and to build their confidence so the can be who they choose to be, without being afraid of being judged.

I would absolutely allow either of my sons to wear a dress in public, I couldn't comment on it at all, and if they felt uncomfortable with it I would discuss those feelings with them.

It really is a hard one, this thread reminds me somewhat of Ruby Bridges (the first black child in her area to attend a white school some 60 years ago). Of course she shoud've been accepted. But she wasn't and her parents made the tough decision to send her in and lead the way forward knowing the backlash she would recieve. I couldn't be that mum, it must have been such a hard decision for her but someone had to do it.
I'm not saying that having a boy wear a dress in public is as big a deal as this was, but the principle is the same. As much as we should teach children not to be ashamed of what they want it is a very hard decision when we know what the consequence might be.
I hope that in 60 years time society will have moved forwards and all clothing is accepted for everyone. I think there are many famous people now leading the way forward for gender equality and we definately will make progress.

 

[AngelUK]

I completely agree Mrs. B!
I have yet to meet anyone who was not in some way at some point or another hurt by what other ppl have said to them and how they were judged by others. I don't think we as parents could ever make our children so confident and self assured that they could just brush off the unkindness of others. I am not sure such Teflon-like self confidence is even necessarily a good thing.
So I do still think that if I can make life that little bit easier for my small child I will and for as long as I can.

 

[Teri7489]

I've read the same thing, and I actually find it cute. He looks adorable in his dress and matching T-shirt with his mum. I also seen one about a little boy having his toe nails painted like his mummy. Again, I think its cute. I want my kids to grow up comfortable in their own skin, be accepting of others choices and aware of differences. I don't want them living in fear of being mocked. If my son wants to dress in girls outfits, paint his nails or play with dolls then that's fine, same as my daughter plays with diggers, trains and cars. I'm all for asking people advice on parenting, for tips and hints, but I'm resistant to people offering advice that I don't ask for. Not I'm a rude way just usually nod smile then come on here to rant lol x

 

[catty]

I personally wouldn't let my son wear a dress out of the house. He dresses up as Elsa inside, we wear 'makeup' but no that's for inside. Why? I don't want him wearing a big flouncy dress outside there is no need. He has clothes that are weather and play appropriate and a big Elsa dress isn't either in my opinion.

Same with my daughter! At our friends dress up party my daughter went as Elsa and my son went as nothing as he didn't want to, had he wanted to he could have been Elsa too, to a dress up party.

I also dress my daughter in 'girls' clothing. Not fancy, frilly etc but yes girly and if she wanted to wear my son's boyish clothes out the house I probably wouldn't let her, she has her own clothes. She has had dinosaur dress and cars etc but they are her clothes.

If I seen a little boy at the bus stop with a dress on id think cute! But then I might think it's a bit cold for that etc

https://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q564/catherinerobertson89/Mobile%20Uploads/FB_IMG_1464268709053_zpsfes4tjxr.jpg

 

[LoraLoo]

^^^ gorgeous! He has a proper cheeky little face!

 

[staralfur]

I think not allowing a child out in a dress because it's not appropriate for the weather/activities that you'll be doing is entirely different than not allowing a child out in a dress because he's a boy.

I get not wanting your children to be teased, but at the same time, I would never tell my daughter not to do something that made her happy because she might get teased for it. I wouldn't put my hypothetical son in a dress just to prove a point or make a statement but if he was really insistent on wanting to, then I wouldn't want to tell him "no" because ultimately there's no good reason for it. I've always asked myself if there's a good reason I'm telling my daughter not to do something before I do it and if I can't think of one then I let her go ahead and do it. I'd apply the same thing to a son, and in the case of wearing a dress I honestly don't think "some people might think it's weird" is a good reason. What would that be teaching him? That you should stop doing innocent things that make you happy because other people won't like it? I think there's a good lesson in "do what makes you happy, unapologetically, and don't let others kill your spirit."

Yes, he might get teased. Most kids do. Would you tell your child to not do something that would get them teased in any other circumstance? If not, why is this one the exception?

 

[catty]

Staralfur I agree that if he was upset everyday really really wanting to wear one and not wanting to wear jeans etc I would maybe reconsider. It's a hard one as I get about 80% of his clothes from relatives for bday and Xmas so obviously would need to be them to buy as I wouldn't be willing to go out and buy a whole new wardrobe. It is a tough one. I think maybe at just less than 3 hes not old enough to get full choice of his clothes anyway but maybe if he was a bit older and still really wanting it.
I let him choose girlier options of clothes ie. He wants peppa but not George so sometimes have to go to the girls section for that

 

[LoraLoo]

I think it's teaching them what's socially acceptable.
When they start school they'll have a uniform/dress code- same as when they start work.
It's not just a case of letting them do as they please.
When we eat at home im not too fussed if they eat food with their fingers, when we go out, I expect them to use a knife and fork, because in our country and culture, digging your hands in just because it's what you fancy doing isn't acceptable. In other countries, yes, in ours no- it's all part of our traditions.

 

[staralfur]

The difference with the uniform of course being that everyone is required to wear the same thing as per the terms of the school. Not the same thing.

Isn't it okay to challenge what's "socially acceptable" if it's arbitrary, outdated, or needlessly limiting? Some people would argue that nursing in public is not socially acceptable and TBH, even as an advocate for nursing in public, I think there's more grounds to argue that one than not wanting a boy to wear a dress.

 

[AngelUK]

I agree that social norms should be challenged but I don't see that this has to be done by a little boy. Stuff like that should be left to grown ups who know what they are in for.

And comments about BF is not going to fall back on the child (unless it is a toddler preschooler or school child of course) but on the mum so that is ok IMO. Anyway BF and dressing is not the same to me

 

[LoraLoo]

The difference with the uniform of course being that everyone is required to wear the same thing as per the terms of the school. Not the same thing.

Isn't it okay to challenge what's "socially acceptable" if it's arbitrary, outdated, or needlessly limiting? Some people would argue that nursing in public is not socially acceptable and TBH, even as an advocate for nursing in public, I think there's more grounds to argue that one than not wanting a boy to wear a dress.

But boys are required to wear trousers, so it is the same thing. A boy couldnt just rock up to school in a school skirt because he wanted to and his Mum said it was ok. That's not how life works im afraid, whether we agree with it or not, and I can't see it changing any time soon.

I think it is absolutely ok to challenge what is socially acceptable or not, just not at the expense of your child. In the case we are discussing, I think it was more about the Mum trying to make a point tbh.
And people have challenged what's socially acceptable to wear in the past- im pretty sure until around the 1940s, women couldn't wear trousers. In certain jobs today, women are still required to wear skirts/high heels only.
It wouldn't bother me to see a boy in a dress, but for me, I wouldn't be happy my boy being poked fun of.
Attitudes don't just change over night, you're talking about the older generation who are very conservative in their traditions.

 

[staralfur]

So who is going to challenge the socials norm of little boys not being able to wear dresses other than a little boy? If they're young enough to not grasp the fact that wearing a dress out is not "normal" then surely a parent will be around and will be there to intervene should someone take it upon themselves to say something stupid about a boy wearing a dress.

 

[staralfur]

The difference with the uniform of course being that everyone is required to wear the same thing as per the terms of the school. Not the same thing.

Isn't it okay to challenge what's "socially acceptable" if it's arbitrary, outdated, or needlessly limiting? Some people would argue that nursing in public is not socially acceptable and TBH, even as an advocate for nursing in public, I think there's more grounds to argue that one than not wanting a boy to wear a dress.

But boys are required to wear trousers, so it is the same thing. A boy couldnt just rock up to school in a school skirt because he wanted to and his Mum said it was ok. That's not how life works im afraid, whether we agree with it or not, and I can't see it changing any time soon.

I think it is absolutely ok to challenge what is socially acceptable or not, just not at the expense of your child. In the case we are discussing, I think it was more about the Mum trying to make a point tbh.
And people have challenged what's socially acceptable to wear in the past- im pretty sure until around the 1940s, women couldn't wear trousers. In certain jobs today, women are still required to wear skirts/high heels only.
It wouldn't bother me to see a boy in a dress, but for me, I wouldn't be happy my boy being poked fun of.
Attitudes don't just change over night, you're talking about the older generation who are very conservative in their traditions.

The uniform is an easy one to explain, though.

"Mom, why can't I wear a dress to school?"
"Because your school's dress code prohibits it."

Versus

"Mom, why can't I wear a dress to the store?"
"Because other people will think it's weird."

I'm not saying kids should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want to, but if there's no good reason beyond an arbitrary gender stereotype then I don't see why they shouldn't be able to wear what they want.

 

[LoraLoo]

Men would be a good start if they felt strongly enough about it. We can be advocates for children without humiliating them? You can fight for a persons right, that person doesn't have to fight it themselves by putting themselves out there to be ridiculed. And yes I know that's not the childs fault or problem, but that's how it is.

 

[LoraLoo]

The difference with the uniform of course being that everyone is required to wear the same thing as per the terms of the school. Not the same thing.

Isn't it okay to challenge what's "socially acceptable" if it's arbitrary, outdated, or needlessly limiting? Some people would argue that nursing in public is not socially acceptable and TBH, even as an advocate for nursing in public, I think there's more grounds to argue that one than not wanting a boy to wear a dress.

But boys are required to wear trousers, so it is the same thing. A boy couldnt just rock up to school in a school skirt because he wanted to and his Mum said it was ok. That's not how life works im afraid, whether we agree with it or not, and I can't see it changing any time soon.

I think it is absolutely ok to challenge what is socially acceptable or not, just not at the expense of your child. In the case we are discussing, I think it was more about the Mum trying to make a point tbh.
And people have challenged what's socially acceptable to wear in the past- im pretty sure until around the 1940s, women couldn't wear trousers. In certain jobs today, women are still required to wear skirts/high heels only.
It wouldn't bother me to see a boy in a dress, but for me, I wouldn't be happy my boy being poked fun of.
Attitudes don't just change over night, you're talking about the older generation who are very conservative in their traditions.

The uniform is an easy one to explain, though.

"Mom, why can't I wear a dress to school?"
"Because your school's dress code prohibits it."

Versus

"Mom, why can't I wear a dress to the store?"
"Because other people will think it's weird."

But why does school prohibit it? It's the same argument, because it's not socially acceptable, it's nothing to do with practicality as girls and boys follow the same curriculum and perform the same tasks and activities

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

The difference with the uniform of course being that everyone is required to wear the same thing as per the terms of the school. Not the same thing.

Isn't it okay to challenge what's "socially acceptable" if it's arbitrary, outdated, or needlessly limiting? Some people would argue that nursing in public is not socially acceptable and TBH, even as an advocate for nursing in public, I think there's more grounds to argue that one than not wanting a boy to wear a dress.

But boys are required to wear trousers, so it is the same thing. A boy couldnt just rock up to school in a school skirt because he wanted to and his Mum said it was ok. That's not how life works im afraid, whether we agree with it or not, and I can't see it changing any time soon.

I think it is absolutely ok to challenge what is socially acceptable or not, just not at the expense of your child. In the case we are discussing, I think it was more about the Mum trying to make a point tbh.
And people have challenged what's socially acceptable to wear in the past- im pretty sure until around the 1940s, women couldn't wear trousers. In certain jobs today, women are still required to wear skirts/high heels only.
It wouldn't bother me to see a boy in a dress, but for me, I wouldn't be happy my boy being poked fun of.
Attitudes don't just change over night, you're talking about the older generation who are very conservative in their traditions.

Agree!

 

[staralfur]

The difference with the uniform of course being that everyone is required to wear the same thing as per the terms of the school. Not the same thing.

Isn't it okay to challenge what's "socially acceptable" if it's arbitrary, outdated, or needlessly limiting? Some people would argue that nursing in public is not socially acceptable and TBH, even as an advocate for nursing in public, I think there's more grounds to argue that one than not wanting a boy to wear a dress.

But boys are required to wear trousers, so it is the same thing. A boy couldnt just rock up to school in a school skirt because he wanted to and his Mum said it was ok. That's not how life works im afraid, whether we agree with it or not, and I can't see it changing any time soon.

I think it is absolutely ok to challenge what is socially acceptable or not, just not at the expense of your child. In the case we are discussing, I think it was more about the Mum trying to make a point tbh.
And people have challenged what's socially acceptable to wear in the past- im pretty sure until around the 1940s, women couldn't wear trousers. In certain jobs today, women are still required to wear skirts/high heels only.
It wouldn't bother me to see a boy in a dress, but for me, I wouldn't be happy my boy being poked fun of.
Attitudes don't just change over night, you're talking about the older generation who are very conservative in their traditions.

The uniform is an easy one to explain, though.

"Mom, why can't I wear a dress to school?"
"Because your school's dress code prohibits it."

Versus

"Mom, why can't I wear a dress to the store?"
"Because other people will think it's weird."

But why does school prohibit it? It's the same argument, because it's not socially acceptable, it's nothing to do with practicality as girls and boys follow the same curriculum and perform the same tasks and activities

I agree, and I don't care much for the idea of school uniforms in the first place, but ultimately what the school enforces is out of your control unless you want to challenge it or homeschool.

What isn't out of your control and much easier than picking a fight with the school system is letting them wear what they'd like outside of school.

 

[LoraLoo]

I think most of us are in agreement that It should be socially acceptable, I just feel most of us wouldn't want to use our kids as guinee pigs to try and change people's opinions. Perhaps that makes me selfish, but if there's a situation where I can prevent my child being mocked then I will prevent it as much as possible.