Risking a gender debate...

[staralfur]

I don't think it's fair to say that parents who would allow it are using their kids as guinea pigs. I think there's a valuable lesson in telling your child to do what makes them happy despite others not understanding it. For some people that lesson might come later in life but it's something I have been trying to teach my daughter since the day she could make her own choices.

Ultimately I can respect anyone who is trying to keep their kids from being teased for something but I kind of think it's an unavoidable part of growing up and if I can teach my daughter that it's THEIR problem and not hers as early as possible then I'm all over that, and of course the same would go for a son.

 

[LoraLoo]

As I said in one of my earlier posts, im fine with others doing that, im just not prepared to put my own child through that.

 

[sheebee]

I don't think it's fair to say that parents who would allow it are using their kids as guinea pigs. I think there's a valuable lesson in telling your child to do what makes them happy despite others not understanding it. For some people that lesson might come later in life but it's something I have been trying to teach my daughter since the day she could make her own choices.

Ultimately I can respect anyone who is trying to keep their kids from being teased for something but I kind of think it's an unavoidable part of growing up and if I can teach my daughter that it's THEIR problem and not hers as early as possible then I'm all over that, and of course the same would go for a son.

Exactly this. I'm actually not trying to change the way others think, I'm trying to empower my boys to be who they are, and that it really doesn't matter what others think.

 

[sheebee]

I am not sure such Teflon-like self confidence is even necessarily a good thing. f

I find this an interesting perspective, how could confidence (not arrogance) ever be a bad thing?

 

[LoraLoo]

I don't think it's fair to say that parents who would allow it are using their kids as guinea pigs. I think there's a valuable lesson in telling your child to do what makes them happy despite others not understanding it. For some people that lesson might come later in life but it's something I have been trying to teach my daughter since the day she could make her own choices.

Ultimately I can respect anyone who is trying to keep their kids from being teased for something but I kind of think it's an unavoidable part of growing up and if I can teach my daughter that it's THEIR problem and not hers as early as possible then I'm all over that, and of course the same would go for a son.

Exactly this. I'm actually not trying to change the way others think, I'm trying to empower my boys to be who they are, and that it really doesn't matter what others think.

Do you think at 4 they grasp that? My 4 year old wouldn't. Beast that he is, if someone pointed and laughed at him, He'd probably cry.
How many of us would feel OK being made fun of in public? I'm pretty hardy but I'd not be ok with it, it's not a nice feeling, and I'm an adult. You only have to look at threads on here (is this ok to wear?) etc to see that as humans, we generally DO care what people think of us. We shouldn't, some will say they don't, but I think most of us do.

 

[AngelUK]

I have grown up with a Teflon man for a father. Nothing ever made a dent, he is Mr Great no matter what you say to him or how wrong he was. And yes I suppose it is a form of arrogance.

 

[morri]

Theres been cases where they fought for the right of gender inclusive uniform, so boys can wear skirts and girls can wear panrts
I wouldnt have worn a skirt if i went to a school in England lol.

 

[lau86]

Would someone really make fun of them? I can see other kids doing it maybe, but adults?! If I saw a boy in a dress I would just think it was a phase and ignore, same as if they're dressed as batman or something. Other kids making fun I wouldn't be so bothered about as that's kinda what kids do...

 

[Rags]

My Ds is 6 and when he was 4 he took a liking to his cousins Oopsie Daisy costume and loved to wear it, it made not a blind bit of difference to him that it had been his girl cousins before his and I'm not aware of anyone commenting on it when we were out and about but if they had I'd have encouraged him to ignore them. When out the other day with his disabled aunt he noticed a boy from his school staring at her, his reaction was to throw his arms around her, give her a huge kiss then run off to play - at which point the other boy lost interest and moved on. I think what I'm trying to say is that children will only take on other peoples reaction negatively if they see or hear the adults around them responding/commenting to things that might be different/outside their particular norm.
At a party half an hour ago Ds asked me (completely out of the blue) how people knew if they were a boy or a girl, my answer, their body will have a penis or a vagina and as they grow up this will either be 'right' with their brain or not. Most of the time the brain and the body match and sometimes it wont. He doesn't question the 'Dame' in panto or 'Aunt Tumble' on Cbeebies, he knows that they're men in dresses and it's never occurred to him that this isn't perfectly normal - the way I want him to react to everyone's lifestyle choices and the way I hope society will learn to react to his whatever they happen to be.

 

[LoraLoo]

Yes, that's what happened, a grown woman was really rude about it. I'm struggling to find the article on it.
Likewise, I read a post on here the other day where a stranger mocked a boy in a supermarket for picking a 'girls' toy.

 

[LoraLoo]

Found it

"To the lady at the bus stop who felt the need to interrupt my conversation with my son.
I am NOT sorry you didn't like how he was dressed nor am I sorry that you didn't like our discussion topic of who our favorite Disney Princess is (Snow White obviously).
Zackary is my 3 year old son and he can be who he wants to be. Today he was a Disney princess and YES I did send him to school like that. Why??? Beacuse that's what he wanted to wear, because he wanted to show his teachers and friends his Elsa dress, because he wanted to sing 'let it go' for show and tell, because he doesn't understand the gender stereotypes YOU think he should conform to, but most importantly because he is awesome!!
He plays with cars and dolls, princesses and pirates. He rides his scooter or pushes his pram. He wears zombie face painting or lip stick and if he choose to wear a dress he can!!
So next time you see us, dressed as a princess or cowboy, keep you disapproving stares to yourself and unless you want to tell him how great he looks keep your poisonous words to yourself too.
Your the one that should be embarrassed to leave the house not us!! 💕💙

 

[Rags]

Found it

"To the lady at the bus stop who felt the need to interrupt my conversation with my son.
I am NOT sorry you didn't like how he was dressed nor am I sorry that you didn't like our discussion topic of who our favorite Disney Princess is (Snow White obviously).
Zackary is my 3 year old son and he can be who he wants to be. Today he was a Disney princess and YES I did send him to school like that. Why??? Beacuse that's what he wanted to wear, because he wanted to show his teachers and friends his Elsa dress, because he wanted to sing 'let it go' for show and tell, because he doesn't understand the gender stereotypes YOU think he should conform to, but most importantly because he is awesome!!
He plays with cars and dolls, princesses and pirates. He rides his scooter or pushes his pram. He wears zombie face painting or lip stick and if he choose to wear a dress he can!!
So next time you see us, dressed as a princess or cowboy, keep you disapproving stares to yourself and unless you want to tell him how great he looks keep your poisonous words to yourself too.
Your the one that should be embarrassed to leave the house not us!! 💕💙

A very good article and very true. Children are only busy being children, exploring, trying, learning and experimenting at the end of which they will just be themselves, it's us adults who have to realise this and get over our hang ups.

 

[sheebee]

I don't think it's fair to say that parents who would allow it are using their kids as guinea pigs. I think there's a valuable lesson in telling your child to do what makes them happy despite others not understanding it. For some people that lesson might come later in life but it's something I have been trying to teach my daughter since the day she could make her own choices.

Ultimately I can respect anyone who is trying to keep their kids from being teased for something but I kind of think it's an unavoidable part of growing up and if I can teach my daughter that it's THEIR problem and not hers as early as possible then I'm all over that, and of course the same would go for a son.

Exactly this. I'm actually not trying to change the way others think, I'm trying to empower my boys to be who they are, and that it really doesn't matter what others think.

Do you think at 4 they grasp that? My 4 year old wouldn't. Beast that he is, if someone pointed and laughed at him, He'd probably cry.
How many of us would feel OK being made fun of in public? I'm pretty hardy but I'd not be ok with it, it's not a nice feeling, and I'm an adult. You only have to look at threads on here (is this ok to wear?) etc to see that as humans, we generally DO care what people think of us. We shouldn't, some will say they don't, but I think most of us do.

You're right, they probably won't grasp it, but does that mean we shouldn't model it for them so that when they can grasp it they are already familiar with the concept?

I totally see where you are coming from, I guess I see the only way to change what's accepted it to start doing things differently.

 

[sheebee]

I have grown up with a Teflon man for a father. Nothing ever made a dent, he is Mr Great no matter what you say to him or how wrong he was. And yes I suppose it is a form of arrogance.

But I'm not talking about arrogance, I mean a real sense on confidence, a confidence in one's self, a finely tuned inner voice that you can trust. A gentle confidence, that allow you to be kind and thoughtful, that frees you of having to conform to unhealthy social norms. There nothing arrogant in that confidence.

 

[AngelUK]

I have grown up with a Teflon man for a father. Nothing ever made a dent, he is Mr Great no matter what you say to him or how wrong he was. And yes I suppose it is a form of arrogance.

But I'm not talking about arrogance, I mean a real sense on confidence, a confidence in one's self, a finely tuned inner voice that you can trust. A gentle confidence, that allow you to be kind and thoughtful, that frees you of having to conform to unhealthy social norms. There nothing arrogant in that confidence.

But I was not talking of that kind of self confidence. You said that my perspective was interesting and how could self confidence ever be a bad thing and I tried to explain what I meant. Not well I guess. Sorry.

 

[adrie]

Gender absolutely exists. We couldn't have babies without a male/female genitals. Our chromosomes support that. Honestly, not too sure if I buy into people's perceived genders but it's not my battle to fight. I will say, though, that I take issue with the LGBT movement labeling straight, regular folk like myself. No, I am not "cis-gendered" as I don't "label" myself that way. I'm female, that's it. You can think, feel, and call yourselves anything you want though. That's YOUR label. I don't have to agree with it.

To be honest, other people can think and be whatever they want to and call themselves whatever they want, but no, I would not dress my very young son in a dress or buy him very girly clothes. If we had a son and he grew up that way and continued to want to dress femininely, even perhaps transition, that would be his choice. I would support his right to make that choice. His father would not support that, however.

Having said all of that, I wouldn't say we overly dress our daughter girly. Her father probably is more likely to dress her more girly than me actually. I would put her into "boys" clothes as many of them are neutral in my opinion. Some girls stuff is so over the top girly, some of it even gaudy to me. I'm mostly casual with our daughter. She has a good mix of toys and interests; from both girly dolls and things to construction gear, cars, etc. Whatever she likes is what we will buy her.

 

[staralfur]

Gender absolutely exists. We couldn't have babies without a male/female genitals. Our chromosomes support that. Honestly, not too sure if I buy into people's perceived genders but it's not my battle to fight. I will say, though, that I take issue with the LGBT movement labeling straight, regular folk like myself. No, I am not "cis-gendered" as I don't "label" myself that way. I'm female, that's it. You can think, feel, and call yourselves anything you want though. That's YOUR label. I don't have to agree with it.

To be honest, other people can think and be whatever they want to and call themselves whatever they want, but no, I would not dress my very young son in a dress or buy him very girly clothes. If we had a son and he grew up that way and continued to want to dress femininely, even perhaps transition, that would be his choice. I would support his right to make that choice. His father would not support that, however.

Having said all of that, I wouldn't say we overly dress our daughter girly. Her father probably is more likely to dress her more girly than me actually. I would put her into "boys" clothes as many of them are neutral in my opinion. Some girls stuff is so over the top girly, some of it even gaudy to me. I'm mostly casual with our daughter. She has a good mix of toys and interests; from both girly dolls and things to construction gear, cars, etc. Whatever she likes is what we will buy her.

Who's saying gender doesn't exist? All I've been arguing is that there are arbitrary gender stereotypes that are pointlessly limiting and attached to unnecessary judgment. And they are absolutely, 100% arbitrary, as they haven't even been consistent in the past. What exactly is the point of saying boys shouldn't wear dresses? Are we all of a sudden going to be confused? Are we not able to tell if a girl is a girl if she's wearing pants?

I'll also note that gender and sex are two different things and gender is a social and cultural construct while sex is biological. Your chromosomes and genitalia confirm (most of the time) your sex, but NOT necessarily your gender.

 

[adrie]

I can understand where you're coming from because as I think you've already pointed out, the double standard is very clear in our society. A girl wearing clothes targeted towards boys is something most people don't bat an eye at. My lo's favourite shirt is a dark green one with dinosaurs on it and if I don't pair it with pink pants people assume she's a boy, but once I correct them they apologize and feel silly for assuming. Whereas if it were a boy wearing a princess shirt I imagine people would somehow feel more justified in their gender assumption.

Which leads to an interesting question: why is it okay for girls to dress like boys but not okay for boys to dress like girls? Why can we say "sure, sweetie, it's okay present yourself as more masculine" but deny boys the ability to present themselves as more feminine without judgment? It seems to imply that masculine = fine no matter what, but feminine = only okay sometimes. The implication is that it's more acceptable to show "boy" traits than "girl" traits and that's not okay with me. Girly things are awesome. Boys should like lots of girl things! To say that they can only dress a certain way or do girly things in private attaches an element of shame to it, I think.

All of that said, I know some people are just real sticklers for gender stereotypes in general and while I disagree with that, I think it's less of an issue if they're consistent. But if you would have no problem sending your daughter out in a Batman costume but wouldn't let your son go out in a dress, I think you need to consider what subtle messages you're sending your children.

I wouldn't say anything is "right or wrong" but what I would say is that boys clothes are just more neutral, IMO. The really girly stuff is REALLY girly: sparkles, ruffles, bright, busy prints and colours; whereas there is not as much variance with boys clothes and attire, shoes, etc. Boys stuff is just more casual and wearable overall.

 

[malia]

Gender absolutely exists. We couldn't have babies without a male/female genitals. Our chromosomes support that. Honestly, not too sure if I buy into people's perceived genders but it's not my battle to fight. I will say, though, that I take issue with the LGBT movement labeling straight, regular folk like myself. No, I am not "cis-gendered" as I don't "label" myself that way. I'm female, that's it. You can think, feel, and call yourselves anything you want though. That's YOUR label. I don't have to agree with it.

To be honest, other people can think and be whatever they want to and call themselves whatever they want, but no, I would not dress my very young son in a dress or buy him very girly clothes. If we had a son and he grew up that way and continued to want to dress femininely, even perhaps transition, that would be his choice. I would support his right to make that choice. His father would not support that, however.

Having said all of that, I wouldn't say we overly dress our daughter girly. Her father probably is more likely to dress her more girly than me actually. I would put her into "boys" clothes as many of them are neutral in my opinion. Some girls stuff is so over the top girly, some of it even gaudy to me. I'm mostly casual with our daughter. She has a good mix of toys and interests; from both girly dolls and things to construction gear, cars, etc. Whatever she likes is what we will buy her.

I'm not in any way arguing with you or contesting your opinion, but gender is not the same as sex. Your sex is female/male and determined in the womb, but gender is not the same thing.

The definition of gender is male or female roles especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behaviour.

Gender is a social construct, not a biological one.

 

[adrie]

Gender absolutely exists. We couldn't have babies without a male/female genitals. Our chromosomes support that. Honestly, not too sure if I buy into people's perceived genders but it's not my battle to fight. I will say, though, that I take issue with the LGBT movement labeling straight, regular folk like myself. No, I am not "cis-gendered" as I don't "label" myself that way. I'm female, that's it. You can think, feel, and call yourselves anything you want though. That's YOUR label. I don't have to agree with it.

To be honest, other people can think and be whatever they want to and call themselves whatever they want, but no, I would not dress my very young son in a dress or buy him very girly clothes. If we had a son and he grew up that way and continued to want to dress femininely, even perhaps transition, that would be his choice. I would support his right to make that choice. His father would not support that, however.

Having said all of that, I wouldn't say we overly dress our daughter girly. Her father probably is more likely to dress her more girly than me actually. I would put her into "boys" clothes as many of them are neutral in my opinion. Some girls stuff is so over the top girly, some of it even gaudy to me. I'm mostly casual with our daughter. She has a good mix of toys and interests; from both girly dolls and things to construction gear, cars, etc. Whatever she likes is what we will buy her.

Who's saying gender doesn't exist? All I've been arguing is that there are arbitrary gender stereotypes that are pointlessly limiting and attached to unnecessary judgment. And they are absolutely, 100% arbitrary, as they haven't even been consistent in the past. What exactly is the point of saying boys shouldn't wear dresses? Are we all of a sudden going to be confused? Are we not able to tell if a girl is a girl if she's wearing pants?

I'll also note that gender and sex are two different things and gender is a social and cultural construct while sex is biological. Your chromosomes and genitalia confirm (most of the time) your sex, but NOT necessarily your gender.

This topic in general, not necessarily this thread has given me that perception. The difference between sex and gender identity. I agree that it exists in our culture but perhaps not in reality. That is my opinion and I can have it as I wish, as you can have yours. I'm not some hateful shaming person. If I saw a young boy in a dress, I would just think it was different, honestly. I remember a guy came to our high school for halloween wearing a dress and makeup. We were teenagers and honestly I thought it was cool because I don't think a lot of guys would have the guts to do that at that age. My spouse has a cousin with two young boys, and the younger boy loves Dora, wears her clothes, has Dora shoes and painted toes. I don't look ill onto it; no one thought or said anything. (He was 2-3 at the time). There is an unknowing innocence with a toddler/preschooler dressing in that way and I think most people would just assume the boy liked Dora or Anna/Elsa, etc. Because they are very literal at that age, very face value.

Other people can put their kids in whatever they want, I honestly don't have an opinion--I'm neutral. But in regard to my own child, I would not...I don't think-- I guess this is mostly hypothetical as I don't have a son, but house wear is fine, playing with lip gloss is fine, etc. I'm of the opinion that you can't "change" who someone is and I would never shame my child. If he wants to grow up and wear princess dresses, so be it.