Schools and Catchment Areas UK

[Lightworker]

Hi all.

I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the current school system. For those that don't know, children generally can only attend schools that are within a certain radius from their homes (catchment area).

Do you think this system is fair? For example, I have met a few parents who live in low-income areas and they are restricted to the choices within that catchment area, which generally means they will be going to "poorer quality schools" even though their children may be high-achievers. I say this only because I schools will generally have higher success rates if they are located in more affluent areas.

Do you think that people should have to move just to go to good schools? Do you think the system should be opened up so that anyone can attend any school subject to certain conditions.

I have to admit I don't know what the current government policies or inclinations are regarding this whole catchment area, and maybe I am mistaken in my belief, but was wondering what you think?

 

[vaniilla]

the problem with that is that you would get a similar type problem if you didn't have catchment areas, the point of catchment areas is so that local families don't have to travel far to get their kids to school, yes affluent areas tend to have better schools but there are a lot of reasons behind that also some people argue that kids that are bright will do well in any surrounding and that parents should be getting involved to make sure their kids do well.

 

[Mum2b_Claire]

Well, my area has both 'extremes' - we have ridiculously big houses practically on doorstep of council housing areas. Our local primary school is rated satisfactory but another one 2 miles away (in an affluent village) is outstanding. I would rather send Ruby to the local school as she will in time be able to walk to school, to friends houses etc and also if all the more conscious parents send their children elsewhere, then things are less likely to get better, perpetuating the cycle.
Just my current feelings. My friend thinks I am mad for considering this school but I doubt we would get Ruby into the outstanding school anyway as it is a very small school and prioritises churchgoers, which we aren't, and I refuse to start going just for this purpose.

Anyone CAN go to any school, in theory, it's just that they are less likely to be accepted if they live far away and/or don't meet any other criteria such as religion. Ruby's childminder's daughter's primary is 7 miles away.

 

[Lightworker]

the problem with that is that you would get a similar type problem if you didn't have catchment areas, the point of catchment areas is so that local families don't have to travel far to get their kids to school, yes affluent areas tend to have better schools but there are a lot of reasons behind that also some people argue that kids that are bright will do well in any surrounding and that parents should be getting involved to make sure their kids do well.

I see what you mean, but re the bold bit, if you have children from a less-affluent community, say riddled with things like substance abuse, workless households etc, even if you have one or two high achievers, it won't matter because the teacher will have to have scaled back her expectations in line with the majority's capabilities. I know some do this, eg with literacy and numeracy, in a school where children enter with lower-than-average literacy and numeracy skills, amendments will be made to the curriculum, and as a result high achievers will suffer.

Ofcourse parents are expected to supplement this by helping with homework etc, but in some cases, it becomes the parent being the teacher because the child's abilities are not being utilized.

 

[Lightworker]

Also wanted to add the issue of marginalization as well. If you are restricted to accessing schools within your immediate community, does it not perpetuate the problem. Poorer families will continue to stay in poorer schools, and then do poorly, compared to the national average, poorer chances of good university places etc?

 

[Lightworker]

Well, my area has both 'extremes' - we have ridiculously big houses practically on doorstep of council housing areas. Our local primary school is rated satisfactory but another one 2 miles away (in an affluent village) is outstanding. I would rather send Ruby to the local school as she will in time be able to walk to school, to friends houses etc and also if all the more conscious parents send their children elsewhere, then things are less likely to get better, perpetuating the cycle.
Just my current feelings. My friend thinks I am mad for considering this school but I doubt we would get Ruby into the outstanding school anyway as it is a very small school and prioritises churchgoers, which we aren't, and I refuse to start going just for this purpose.

Anyone CAN go to any school, in theory, it's just that they are less likely to be accepted if they live far away and/or don't meet any other criteria such as religion. Ruby's childminder's daughter's primary is 7 miles away.

Man I so relate to what you're saying, but I have decided to go the other way. I am hoping to remove DD1 next fall to a CofE school. Luckily I am CofE, so I don't feel too hypocritical, although my attendance at Church leaves alot to be desired.

But, I do feel like I am betraying her local school because whilst the nursery bit is great, the primary is, well just picture a primary with parents with alot of problems. I don't know, I think about it alot and battle myself about which decision is best.

 

[Mum2b_Claire]

I still don't really know what we will do. We may well put the oustanding school down as our first choice but we won't move heaven and earth to get her/them there (so to speak.) I wish the local school was the oustanding one as I really do want the girls to go there instead of further afield, so it's a real balancing act of priorities!

I guess our local primary is not THAT bad, a lot of things are good about it, behaviour standards etc but then the OFSTED report reckons that the lessons are bit boring and uninspiring. Hopefully it will improve before I have to make the choice. If it was really bad I would definitely travel elsewhere but satisfactory is what it is, I guess...it has got the potential to improve as things aren't that dire.

 

[Blah11]

No. We live on a newish scheme (90s) so our catchment school isnt even the closest school to us and its in a horrid rough estate our closest school is a really good school so I will be applying there. If we dont get in there i'll apply for any others close to us. i refuse to send her to our catchment school its that bad.

 

[shellie]

I sent my son to a school outside our catchment area. Its in a poor area but is known as a really good school as it always gets outstanding in its ofsted reports. It's a catholic school, and the reason we got him in was because we have him christened catholic but a lot of people who lived in the catchment area and applied didn't have their children christened catholic so he was accepted. xxx

 

[AirForceWife7]

I don't think it's fair, tbh. Where I live in the US, it's the same way, but I know that if you wish to send your child to a school in a different area than where you live you have to pay extra I don't think it should be that way.

 

[indy and lara]

the problem with that is that you would get a similar type problem if you didn't have catchment areas, the point of catchment areas is so that local families don't have to travel far to get their kids to school, yes affluent areas tend to have better schools but there are a lot of reasons behind that also some people argue that kids that are bright will do well in any surrounding and that parents should be getting involved to make sure their kids do well.

I see what you mean, but re the bold bit, if you have children from a less-affluent community, say riddled with things like substance abuse, workless households etc, even if you have one or two high achievers, it won't matter because the teacher will have to have scaled back her expectations in line with the majority's capabilities. I know some do this, eg with literacy and numeracy, in a school where children enter with lower-than-average literacy and numeracy skills, amendments will be made to the curriculum, and as a result high achievers will suffer.

Not true. I hate when it is assumed that in deprived areas we as teachers have low expectations. I have always worked in challenging areas and in these schools we have never had lesser standards or expectations of the children. Also, teachers today have a lot of experience of working with a wide range of abilities and we all know how to teach to several levels at the same time. Schools in affluent areas have problems too and do not come with a whole community of parents who are ready and willing to support the school.

 

[xolily]

we don't really have this issue cos all the schools in the town rate pretty much the same in ofsted reports. the two secondary schools that were always getting bad reports have been closed down and an academy has replaced them (not that i'll have to worry about that for a while). i'll be sending Laila & Romane to the same school my younger brother/sister went to, some of the parents aren't the most desirable of people but the teachers are lovely, the school is bright and vibrant and my siblings both did quite well there! x

 

[Blah11]

My main issue isn't that the teachers won't care. I just don't want her making friends with children who swear, spit and disrupt the class constantly. yes, i'm being very general but really, the area is realllllllllly rough and unfortunately, most children just echo how their parents are

 

[Tegans Mama]

Our closest school is a "rough" one, and thankfully for us it's also completely inaccessible to a wheelchair user like Tegan so she won't be going there I read all of the local schools ofsted reports before I chose her school (we are in a position to choose more freely since she has a statement of special educational needs) but deep down I knew the one I wanted anyway. She's going to the school I went to (I'm only 23, don't be shocked ) which is all on one level, and has less than a hundred pupils even though it covers preschool children to year 6. She has her statement in place now and starts preschool soon 15 hours a week, 12.5 of those hours she has a TA too since she's unsafe to be left unattended.

However if things were different, I would probably not send her to the local school because of the reputation it has. According to its Ofsted report, the children actually DON'T have a teacher sometimes because people take the job and then quit straight away and the children in this area are all, like Blah said, children who swear and spit and basically have no manners and whose parents don't seem to care. I know that's a sweeping statement but if you saw the way some of them look...

 

[Lightworker]

the problem with that is that you would get a similar type problem if you didn't have catchment areas, the point of catchment areas is so that local families don't have to travel far to get their kids to school, yes affluent areas tend to have better schools but there are a lot of reasons behind that also some people argue that kids that are bright will do well in any surrounding and that parents should be getting involved to make sure their kids do well.

I see what you mean, but re the bold bit, if you have children from a less-affluent community, say riddled with things like substance abuse, workless households etc, even if you have one or two high achievers, it won't matter because the teacher will have to have scaled back her expectations in line with the majority's capabilities. I know some do this, eg with literacy and numeracy, in a school where children enter with lower-than-average literacy and numeracy skills, amendments will be made to the curriculum, and as a result high achievers will suffer.

Not true. I hate when it is assumed that in deprived areas we as teachers have low expectations. I have always worked in challenging areas and in these schools we have never had lesser standards or expectations of the children. Also, teachers today have a lot of experience of working with a wide range of abilities and we all know how to teach to several levels at the same time. Schools in affluent areas have problems too and do not come with a whole community of parents who are ready and willing to support the school.

Sorry didn't mean to generlize, only speaking from my own personal experience. My DD1s teacher said that they have had to adjust their expectations in line with the capabilities of the children, and this means that they are below the national average in terms of what the children should be achieving. That comment was in line with my own experience, although I appreciate that it may not be the case across the board. x

 

[Lightworker]

My main issue isn't that the teachers won't care. I just don't want her making friends with children who swear, spit and disrupt the class constantly. yes, i'm being very general but really, the area is realllllllllly rough and unfortunately, most children just echo how their parents are

Thats it precisely. The teachers are fantastic, but it doesn't appear to matter how great they are if they are dealing with parents who don't care, who don't do supplementary work with their children, who speak to their children like they aren't human, who are too busy drinking to get their children to attend and be presentable..arrghh the list goes on. x

 

[smelly07]

I think their has to be some sort of system in place and personally i think its only fair that your local school should be offered to the local children first of all.

Luckily our local school has got outstanding ofstead reports 3 years running its amazing school and we are very lucky to be in the catchment for it, however children have got in to the school from other areas. i know they take a certain % of children from other areas but the only risk of this is they may get into infants school but not the juniors as you have to re apply for junior schools.

The problem i do have is that their are two areas in our town that are seen as 'the bad parts of town' where no one wants to buy property, the property is very cheap compared to other parts of town because no one wants to buy them. Over the years the council have started to place the same sort of families in these areas bringing it down. someone i know who worked for the council said they lump the same sort of people together which is wrong if they spread everybody equally over town then their wouldnt be these under privileged areas as such and the local schools for these areas wouldnt be full of kids like BLAH has decribed.
One thing the two schools in that area of town failed on big time with ofstead was childrens attendence which is something that teachers cant control..that is down to the parents.

(not saying ALL families in those areas are like it but the majority are...........i have family in those areas who are definitely not like it and my nephews went to one of the unsatisfactory schools as it was there catchment school...........i remember picking them up from school alot standing out in the playground with the other parents ....winos, ones with only two teeth..............ones with the whole 'wha ya lookin at' attitudes....parents smoking drugs outside the school playground......saw a parent get attacked by another parent with a hammer............AND I AM NOT LYING..... i remember being pregnant with my eldest at the time and swore she wouldnt go to that school lol)

 

[Lightworker]

Yeah I agree, in terms of social housing, they should mix people abit more and and encourage social integration. The way it works now is that the people that are marginalized by society get even more marginalized.

And the way the school system is structured serves to divide people even more. How are children who come from such neighbourhoods expected to dream big dreams and see the possibility of them if all they come into contact with is the same people?

 

[deafgal]

In the us, at least in my state and county , they rezone school districts in every few years or so. They do this to make these school more diversed. So some areas with higher income will be going to school with those with lower income. It help fund the school as well. some send their kids to private schools but they still have to pay taxes that fund the school.

There were several people of different race were forced to travel distancesto a different school even though they live nearby a school. The county did this to promote diversity, but what parent want to drive distance if their child missed the bus? I still feel every high cost homes, there should be at least two low cost, easy to maintained homes in the neighborhood

 

[indy and lara]

Yeah I agree, in terms of social housing, they should mix people abit more and and encourage social integration. The way it works now is that the people that are marginalized by society get even more marginalized.

And the way the school system is structured serves to divide people even more. How are children who come from such neighbourhoods expected to dream big dreams and see the possibility of them if all they come into contact with is the same people?

I think people hugely underestimate what happens in schools and the role schools play in showing kids that the big world is theirs for the taking. Lightworker I am quoting you simply because you have brought it up. I have seen this written so many times.

Firstly, in my class, I expect every child to succeed. I never start my year with a new class and aim low or lower my expectations. I know the problems many of the children face outside of school- I go to the case conferences, I have read the reports. I get that. I cannot change what they experience at home but I can give them the tools to find another path for themselves. Of course I make allowances for certain behaviours but when they come into my room I expect them to work hard and aim high. I do not accept spitting, swearing, violence and intimidation. I treat the parents with respect and I expect( and largely receive) the same back. They know this and they also know that I believe in them. Sometimes all we need in life is for someone to believe in us and expect great things of us.

I cannot take kids out of their home environments but I can bring the wider world to them in the classroom. We run a career's event for P6/7 age (10-12 years old) where we get speakers in who sit and talk to the kids about their jobs and also how they achieved what they have achieved. We get in a wide range of people- engineers, doctors, tradesmen. Anyone we can really. We have made links with local businesses so our kids get out there and we do visits and people show them what the world of work is like. A few years back I charmed my husbands boss into sending a young guy into my class for 6 sessions to help deliver a project about bridge building. He brought with him a young Muslim woman who was working with him. The kids had no idea what an engineer did before this but it helped open another horizon. These are just a some of the things we do to widen their world. We are teaching now in the UK 3rd and sometimes 4th generations of families who have never worked. It is hard to break this cycle but schools are trying so hard to play their part.

I share with the kids the part of my background they can relate to. Unlike many of them I came from a very supportive and loving family. But like them I lived in a very working class area, where there was unemployment and drinking (I am too old for there to have been a drugs problem when I was growing up!!Glue sniffing was the main problem not heroin in those days!!!) When I got to high school I had to work very hard to prove I was bright and able, not rough, thick and ill-mannered. I tell them that hard work got me 2 degrees and they can do it too.

I know this has turned into an essay but I find it so frustrating when schools and kids are written off. Good manners sadly are forgotten by children of all social backgrounds when they leave their parents at the school gates. I have seen 'nice and respectable' children who, in a playground, swear and curse like a navvy when their parents are out of earshot.