Sleep Sense Support Group!

[Cattia]

Ladies, I need some encouragement

Last night I decided to seriously try to re-settle Abigail without feeding her. I know my attempts to do this have always been half hearted really, and as I am going back to work next week and she is 6 months and on three good meals a day, I am pretty sure she doesn't need to be feeding two or three times a night.

She woke at 1am and I managed to re-settle her by just stroking her back (not quite SS though is it) but I didn't do it until she was asleep, I just waited until she was calm which took about 10 minutes, then I left her and she went back to sleep. She stirred another couple of times and gave a few little cries but nothing much, so I didn't go in and she re-settled. The really hard one was the 4am wake up though. She was crying a lot and I was not sure whether she was hungry, but I knew I had to try. I just stroked her back and put my hand next to her face and she snuggled into it. When I tried to leave the room a couple of times she really screamed so I stayed there for about 35 minutes with her. I felt during this time that she was getting calmer and calmer and not more worked up which made me think she couldn't be starving, so I persevered. IN the end she was awake but quiet and happy so I left her and she went back to sleep. I feel bad though - what if she really was hungry? Would she have not re-settled? I even rang the HV to ask her baout it this morning as I felt so bad and she said I am doing the right thing.

The other problem is that as I am going back to work next week I feel sad that if I stop feeding her in the night then I will hardly see her on the days when I am working. I know this is not a good reason to keep feeding her, and I know I will cope better with work if she sleeps better, but it still upsets me to think of not seeing her all night, and I had not realised at all until last night that this was the case. Guess it is not just her who has a dependency on those night feeds!

Also my period seems to have returned so I am feeling mega-hormonal which makes it all the worse

Am I doing the right thing, do you think? Please be honest, I can take it!

 

[polaris]

I think if she was really hungry then she wouldn't have resettled. I have never managed to resettle Thomas without feeding when he wakes at 4 or 5 so well done! I tried giving him water and he drank it down happily but then still wanted a feed (pulling at my top and generally hungry behaviour) so I am continuing with this feed for the moment but trying to resettle him if he wakes much earlier than this. I think I could probably be more persistent with trying to get him to drop the 4/5 a.m. feed but I'm hoping he will just drop it himself with a bit more time.

I know what you mean about missing the night feeds especially once you are back in work and away from her all day. What time will you have to leave in the morning and what time will you get home? It is so hard but as you say that's not a good reason to keep feeding her if she doesn't need it.

 

[Cattia]

Thanks Polaris You see one of the things that worried me was that I didn't take her out of the cot, I just settled her where she was so I couldn't tell if she was lurching for the boob or not, although I suspect that she would have done anyway as that's what she always does at night. It's just so hard

I will be starting work at 8.30 and it's about a 45minute drive so I will have to leave at half seven. As Abigail is usually awake at 6 I think I will do her morning feed and then get her up with me so I get to see her in the morning, although it won't be quality time as I'll be rushing around getting ready for work. IN the afternoons I finish teaching at 4, but we often have meetings etc after work. I guess I will be away by 5 most days, so home by 6 which gives me an hour with her to do her bedtime routine. I know it's better than nothing, but when I have been used to spending 24/7 with her it's just going to be sooo hard

Thanks for the encouragement, I think I am going to try and do the same tonight, if she really doesn't need that feed then in theory she should stop waking up if I give her a few nights of re-settling.

 

[cutie4evr01]

I agree that you are definitely doing the right thing! I really don't think she would have settled, especially without you even having to pick her up, if she had really been starving. I know it will be difficult to only see her for an hour morning and night, but it will be better for both of you to get a continuous night of sleep. Also you will find a way to make the most of that time together. I have started waking up at 5am on work days to get myself ready, so that by the time C wakes up between 6 and 6:30, I just feed her and we play a bit before we have to leave at 7:30. If you weren't waking 2 times in the night for feeds, this may be an option for you too. Please don't despair, I'm sure she will let you know if she really needs to feed (by inconsolable crying, or not settling, etc.) It is hard, but I think it is right.

 

[Cattia]

Thank you Cutie, that's really cheered me up actually because it has made me realise that if I can get this night waking cracked, then I will actually be able to get up at half five becasue I won't be any more tired than I will be getting up at half six but having had two or three night wakings, iykwim, so in that case I would be able to play with her in the morning still once I am ready I am also going to do everything I can the night before, like pack my bags, get my lunch ready, iron my clothes and put them out etc. I am tempted to do everything for Abigail too like put her clothes out, deforst her food etc etc, but I think I do need to leave some of those things to DH on the days he is looking after her. Although heaven knows what she'll be wearing when I get home

 

[becstar]

Ah Cattia she'll be fine - sometimes I come home and she's wearing a t-shirt and tights and no skirt or trousers and has been out like it and everything - but who cares, he's doing his best and she's not naked...

 

[history_girls]

Evening all

Some fab nights here for us so really chuffed - much better than this time last week! She even resettled for Granny last night when we were out playing in a concert so very proud.

Cattia - I'm with the others, I don't think she would have gone back if hungry. Phoebe wouldn't. Phoebe also now does a lip sucking thing when she wants milk now which is quite helpful! As for work I get LO up with me at 6am for a 7.50 leave. If she sleeps in I leave her. I find we have a lovely time in the morning. I get her anywhere from 5 to 5.30 on a week night and we have an hour until bed time - she can't do bed after 6.45 with the early start. Mornings are def the best time to spend together. Big Big As for your sleep - It is amazing how much you can keep going on limited sleep. I get up at 6 and go to bed about 10ish and sometimes will be up in the night for an hour - it is fine and I love my sleep! i do however sometimes abandon SS on a school night in return for a quicker return to sleep. It hasn't really harmed her self settling in the long run.

Cutie - Hiya - great sleeping!

Thanks for all the posts on night noise! I think I will keep to quietness just on the safe side but need a bath tonight as so tired - she will just have to cope!

right a soak awaits!

Will catch up tomorrow properly as its friday

 

[polaris]

I think we might have a new problem.

Thomas went to bed this evening as usual - he went off to sleep within about 5 minutes of chatting to himself. But at 7.30ish he woke up screaming. I went straight up to him and he had rolled onto his tummy and was up on his hands and knees at the top end of the cot and seemed very upset. So I turned him back over and calmed him down but it took him about half an hour to go back to sleep. I hope this isn't going to be a regular occurrence! He doesn't really roll during the day (has done a few times but not on any sort of regular basis) so I don't really feel confident that he would be able to roll back and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be able to sleep on his tummy. Has anyone else had this happen and how long did it go on for?

 

[cutie4evr01]

Unfortunately Christina has been doing this for a week or two now. And she rolls a lot during the day, that's her method of mobility to get around the living room, so I know she knows how to roll back. But for some reason in her crib she rolls onto her tummy and scoots to the end of the crib and then screams for us. Maybe she thinks she doesn't have room to turn back? Anyway, we've been just flipping her back and usually she will settle to sleep, and so far she only does it one time when we first put her down, but unfortunately now she has started doing it when she wakes up in the night. So everytime I go in for a night feed she is on her tummy. How will I ever know if she really needs a feed or is just stuck on her stomach? Anyway, I know this probably wasn't much help as I don't know when it will end, but wanted you to know you're not alone!

 

[Foogirl]

Quick poll - how much noise do you people make once LO is in bed?

Abby has always been used to noise - 6 weeks in NNICU helps a lot!

During the day we carry on as normal pretty much, cleaning, hoovering etc. At night we tend to have a quiet period until we know she is asleep then carry on with what we have to do.

It's not so much about the level of noise with us it is the timing and type of noise. We know that if she is trying to sleep, too much noise is a distraction for her and she is a nosy wee thing! Other than that we avoid anything which is kind of "percussive" (eg dropping a teaspoon on the kitchen laminate may well wake her or using the waste disposal or we've to be careful emptying the dishwasher)

Mr Foo can cut the grass outside her bedroom window, but he can't use the scarafier as it wakes her up Trial and error is the best way to find out.

 

[cutie4evr01]

Polaris, I spoke too soon. Tonight I put her down and she flipped onto her stomach 3 times before eventually going to sleep! SHe didn't even cry out loudly like she normally does, just continued her usually whiney noises she makes before going to sleep. I know it's ok for her to sleep on her tummy since she put herself there, but when her whining goes muffled and I know she's on her tummy with her face in the mattress, I get nervous and go flip her back. I'm hoping she will stop soon, or else figure out that she can flip herself back if she wants (since she does all the time in the day). Most days lately she's fallen asleep on her side, so it must be more comfortable for her than her back.

 

[hivechild]

Hi girls,

Just a quickie before I try and get myself off to bed. I hope everyone's doing ok. I've been reading and following the thread but never seem to find the time to actually post.

Ronan has been moodier than a hormonal teenage girl during the days recently (and feeding like a hormonal teenage girl worried about her weight...3-5 minutes at a time and then refusing/showing no interest for another 3 hours or more when generally he'll feed for a good 20 minutes every 2 1/2-3 hrs), so I'm beat!

He is frequently waking from naps screaming and when he's not screaming he'll be crying, but it's like a switch going from fast asleep to awake which is a more than a little disconcerting. He's going down ok at night, although he had a bit of a whinge tonight for the first time in a long while, and his wake up for a night feed is all over the place. One night he's up before midnight, the next he sleeps until 4:30, the next he's up at 1...

He is certainly keeping me on my toes these days.

Fingers crossed for a good night's sleep for everyone else! I'm personally anticipating an early waking tonight since he fed so poorly all day.

 

[polaris]

Hi girls,

Just a quickie before I try and get myself off to bed. I hope everyone's doing ok. I've been reading and following the thread but never seem to find the time to actually post.

Ronan has been moodier than a hormonal teenage girl during the days recently (and feeding like a hormonal teenage girl worried about her weight...3-5 minutes at a time and then refusing/showing no interest for another 3 hours or more when generally he'll feed for a good 20 minutes every 2 1/2-3 hrs), so I'm beat!

He is frequently waking from naps screaming and when he's not screaming he'll be crying, but it's like a switch going from fast asleep to awake which is a more than a little disconcerting. He's going down ok at night, although he had a bit of a whinge tonight for the first time in a long while, and his wake up for a night feed is all over the place. One night he's up before midnight, the next he sleeps until 4:30, the next he's up at 1...

He is certainly keeping me on my toes these days.

Fingers crossed for a good night's sleep for everyone else! I'm personally anticipating an early waking tonight since he fed so poorly all day.

Oh dear he sounds a bit unsettled. Just regarding the feeding though - it could possibly just be that he is getting more efficient at feeding now - that happened with Thomas at about four months and he went from taking a good half an hour for a feed to being done in less than ten minutes. Now he only ever feeds for 5 minutes during the day and about 10 minutes for bedtime and night feeds. I believe teething can put them off feeding too though - could he be teething?

 

[polaris]

Polaris, I spoke too soon. Tonight I put her down and she flipped onto her stomach 3 times before eventually going to sleep! SHe didn't even cry out loudly like she normally does, just continued her usually whiney noises she makes before going to sleep. I know it's ok for her to sleep on her tummy since she put herself there, but when her whining goes muffled and I know she's on her tummy with her face in the mattress, I get nervous and go flip her back. I'm hoping she will stop soon, or else figure out that she can flip herself back if she wants (since she does all the time in the day). Most days lately she's fallen asleep on her side, so it must be more comfortable for her than her back.

It is really frustrating isn't it. We had a bit of that last night too, he seemed to settle as normal at bedtime but then woke up screaming twenty minutes later (OH was doing the grass and I think that woke him, whoops) but when I went up to check on him he was on his hands and knees right up at the top end of the cot. I turned him over but it took him a good half an hour to settle back to sleep. Then he woke up at 3.30, when I went into him he was on his tummy, I probably should have resettled him without feeding but I fed him hoping that he wouldn't wake at 5. But he woke at 5.30 anyway and didn't really go back to sleep. That's not enough sleep for a baby!

On a more positive note, he has figured out how to go forwards! After weeks of backwards crawling, he has finally worked out how to (very slowly) move himself forwards across the floor to get a toy (or more likely the remote control or a mobile phone, LOL, much more motivating!).

 

[Cattia]

Wow Polaris, it sounds as though Thomas is coming on in leaps and bounds! Shame he's decided to practice his new skills at night though I hope he is more settled tonight.

Hive - it sounds as though Ronan is doing some growing too! Abigail's feeds also got shorter so I think this is quite normal, although it was hard at first because I never knew whether she was actually feeding more efficiently or just snacking.

Well last night was another long one for us. I am still working at the settling without sleeping as I feel now I have started I have to continue, but I am afraid that I have gone and made this decision slap bang in the middle of a growth spurt She is SOOO grizzly in the day which is not like her at all, I also think she is teething like mad and has a bit of a cold which I have too

Last night she woke at 1am and OH settled her in about 10 minutes. She then woke at 2am and was just doing that crying in her sleep thing so I left her and she stopped after 6 minutes. Same happened at 2.30 so I left her again and she settled until 4am.She then woke up and I went and stayed with her. She seemed to be getting calmer not more worked up, and after about 10 minutes I managed to settle her. She then woke up again at 5am and I settled her again, but at 5.20 she was awake again! By this point one of my boobs was killing me and I'd had enough so I fed her and she slept until 7am. I had to instruct DH to get her up and take her downstairs so I could have another hour of sleep, I am just SHATTERED! I am hoping we are doing the right thing, I am working on the assumption that if she was hungry she would not re-settle in ten minutes but this waking every hour is killing me and she is such a grump in the day too

I am going to give it over the weekend and hope for some improvement. I am back at work on Monday. I can't tell you how horrible I feel about it

I hope everyone has a good night X

 

[history_girls]

We are continuing to have good sleeps this week - so grateful. Thanks for all your feedback on noise. I think we will stay quiet. Foo girl i think you are right it is the type of noise. She did survive a rather tipsy Grandpa visiting this evening who was shouting down the hall way he had brought my washing in!

Cattia It does sound like she is slowly getting herself to resettle without a feed - but you must be exhausted, compunded by you having to go to work. Do you think she senses you are tense and anxious about work? I think last week when I was so stressed about her screaming it did make it worse. Nothing much to do about that though - returning to work is hard and they will pick up on it. I'm sending you huge amounts of sleepy dust

Polaris - Phoebe is 8 months today and hates attempting to crawl

Cutie - Phoebe hates being on her front so much she never rolls over in her cot! She does squish herself into corners but not so she wakes herself up much.

right washing up to do...

 

[polaris]

Cattia - You must be totally shattered. There is a big growth spurt at six months so it could be. It is so hard to know what is the best thing to do with these LOs isn't it? I think you are right to continue though now that you have put in so much effort already. She doesn't need the feeds but it might just take her a couple of days to get used to taking in more milk during the day to compensate. I can't do the 5 a.m. wake ups without feeding, at that hour of the morning I am just so anxious that he goes back to sleep that I will do anything. And I know that if it gets too close to 6 then he is very unlikely to go back to sleep. I really feel for you being back in work on Monday, at least it is not long till the holidays though. I actually feel sick to my stomach just thinking about being back in work.

Historygirls - happy 8 months to Phoebe! Thomas totally hated crawling until he worked out how to move in a forwards direction (even if very slowly). He just used to get so frustrated that whatever he was trying to get to was moving in the wrong direction, LOL.

Well so far so good tonight - we had a lovely day today. Thomas had his 7 month developmental check this morning with the public health nurse, she is lovely so I always enjoy meeting her and she always comments on how well Thomas is doing and how healthy he looks and that he is a great advertisement for breastfeeding - I'm sure she has something nice to say to all the mums because that is the type of person she is but it always makes me feel good. Then we went to the park in the afternoon with a couple of other mums and babies, it was an absolutely beautiful day here so we sat under a tree and chilled out, it was really nice. Thomas settled perfectly at bedtime tonight and not a peep out of him so far so I'm hoping for a good night.

 

[hivechild]

Polaris - I'm hoping he's just getting more efficient at feeding and I think it might be a combination of that, as well as just being easily distracted. If he hears his daddy's voice, he's bent over backward and almost rolling out of my lap trying to find him...if he catches sight of the dog out of the corner of his eye, again he forgets all about feeding...Ah well, I keep offering when I think it's been long enough or if he seems hungry. He'll take what he needs, right!?

As for teething, I think he might be but it's so hard to tell. I have no idea what to look for. He drools, he sucks/chews on his fists/chomps my finger, but other than that I'm clueless. I do check his gums with my finger but I can't feel anything and it's hard to see much of anything. I probably won't even realize he has a tooth until he chews on my boob one day!

Here's hoping that tonight goes better for Thomas and he waits until morning to get in a little more practice with his crawling. He must be awfully happy with himself having figured out how to go forward.

Cattia - I hope that she starts to settle/sleep longer for you. I think you're right that she wouldn't settle so easily and quickly if she really was hungry.

Ronan went through about 2-3 nights of waking, having a bit of a whinge and then settling back to sleep when it finally seemed to click for him on how to self-settle back to sleep which is why I usually feel pretty confident that he really is hungry when he does wake properly. I still occasionally hear him stir and wake, either chat to himself or have a wee bit of a whinge before dropping back off to sleep.

Fingers crossed that the next few nights get easier for all of you!

HG - Glad things are still going well with Phoebe. I laughed imagining her grandpa shouting down the hall. It sounds like something my dad would do too.

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Oh, I forgot to mention on the noise thing...during the day it's pretty much business as usual. He used to sleep through anything (including the smoke alarm going off) but not so much anymore. The dog barking usually wakes him up which is annoying because he never used to bark indoors and only started after Ronan was born when he hears someone come to the door.

At night, we are downstairs while he's upstairs and I have an air purifier on in his room for a bit of white noise, but we have the TV on, play with the dog (bouncing balls/running up and down the hallway), talk, etc. and it doesn't seem to disturb him. We have squeaky floorboards upstairs that are impossible to miss to get to our bedroom but so far he seems to sleep through, as well as if we shower/bath after he's gone to bed and when we talk in bed (our walls are thin and we keep the doors open on our room and his).

I know that at some point their sleep changes and they're more easily woken so I guess we'll see how things change when it comes to that. No doubt there will be more creeping about and acrobatics trying to skip over squeaky floorboards!

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I've also got a question for everyone. Where in your routine is the last feed of the night? Right now, we are doing bath, PJs, nurse, story, bed. I am thinking that in the next few weeks sometime when he's settled a bit with his grumpiness that I may try and do nurse, bath, PJs, story & bed, just to separate the nursing to sleep association that little step further. Right now, he's awake going to bed because of story time, but he definitely gets drowsy while nursing and would happily drift off there if I let him (and sometimes does before I rouse him).

I'm worried that if I do the bath after nursing him though that he'll be too awake to settle easily, but at the same time I'm not sure that reading a story for a few minutes is creating enough separation to break that association for him either, especially since for night feedings I do nurse and then put him straight back into his cot...Thoughts?

 

[cutie4evr01]

HC, we do bath, story, nurse, sleepsack (all in light), then hold upright in dark for a couple minutes while burping, then bed, but Christina doesn't fall asleep on the boob anymore. It does calm her down, but she usually is still wide awake afterwards and often smiling and touching all over my face trying to play while I'm trying to burp her. I do think if you do the bath after nursing, it will wake him up more, but if you think he has a nursing/sleep association, it's probably for the best. I can't remember, does he have any reflux? You might be careful doing feed then bath immediately, especially if he likes to splash and play in the bath - we have tried that before and C is usually sick everywhere. I think if he's definitely awake when you put him in the crib, he probably doesn't have any nursing association problems. Anyway, it wouldn't hurt to try it a night or two and see how it goes.

I have a question for everyone too - how long before your LO was consistently going to bed at night without a fuss? I feel like we have been doing this for a few weeks now (I admit some nights we were not consistent, but we have been consistent for at least the past 6 nights), and aside from one night a couple days ago, C still screams for at least 10 minutes before going to sleep, sometimes more. I don't know if I was hoping for a miracle cure or what, but don't they eventually go to bed every night without a fuss? I'm sure she's tired as she's rubbing her eyes and yawning. I'm wondering if maybe we're a bit too late and she's overtired? But I'm not sure how much earlier we can get - already we do her bath at 5:30 and she's in her crib by 6, usually asleep by 6:15. Also, how long before they start going down for naps consistently without a fuss? Thanks!

 

[hivechild]

He's definitely still awake when I put him in his cot to go to bed. The story wakes him up and he's engaged in it (although tonight he was super tired and crabby so we only got half way through it!) and he usually takes another 5-10 minutes to wind down from there but he doesn't generally fuss, just rolls around and blows raspberries etc. Lately he's been practicing his squealing. It's a bit harder to keep him awake when he's up for feeds during the night though, as even when burping him his eyes keep closing he's that sleepy.

As for your question... I can't help you on the nap front, but Ronan took longer than I had hoped for him to go down without a fuss at night, and you guessed it, it was because I was leaving the whole thing too late before starting the routine and getting him to sleep. He was a lot younger than your LO but I finally decided one night after a couple weeks to start the whole thing pretty much as soon as he woke up from his last nap and had had a quick feed and that night he went down SO much easier.

Of course, now he can go a bit longer so I generally have 2 hours give or take to get him to sleep from when he last woke up. I know it sounds silly but there are days when he wakes from a nap too early for him to last until 7ish at night which is about as early as I want to have him in bed to fall asleep, so I am getting him to have a quick cat nap on my shoulder for even 20-30 minutes around 5-6pm so he'll go to bed between 7-8pm.