Sleep Sense Support Group!

[polaris]

Hi everyone.

We had a pretty good night last night, slept straight through until 4.30, when I heard him whimpering a bit. Went into him and he was up on his hands and knees crawling up the cot! As soon as I went in he started properly crying and I fed him but he then went back to sleep until 6.15 which I was pretty happy with. As long as it's after 6 I can cope with it, before 6 I am not a happy bunny!

PM - I think dropping the first night feed initially sounds like a good plan as I think that is the one that babies tend to drop first naturally. How exciting starting weaning! Don't worry that he's not eating much at the moment, as you say it is more about giving him the chance to get used to food. I think it's fine to do a mixture of purees and finger foods, it's whatever suits your family situation really isn't it, once they are getting healthy food that's the main thing in my opinion. Breastfeeding about an hour before solids sounds fine. That's what I was doing at first but I found that it doesn't put him off his solids even if I feed him closer to mealtimes, so in the morning I will give him a breastfeed and then breakfast 15 minutes later just because it's more convenient and he still eats LOADS. Thomas loves his food though, I don't think anything would put him off. His other breastfeeds are further away from mealtimes now especially now that he seems to be dropping his mid morning feed.

Re: awake time - I just checked back on my records and at six months Thomas was doing roughly two hours in the morning before his first nap, about two and a half hours before his second nap, then back to two hours before third nap and two hours before bed. At eight months he usually does roughly two to three hours in the morning before his first nap, three hours before his second nap, then two hours before his third nap and two hours before bedtime.

 

[polaris]

Oh and a question - Does anyone know how you can tell when babies are ready to drop their third nap? I know that by nine months nearly all babies will have dropped this nap so it can't be too far away for Thomas. Last night we had a bit of crying at bedtime which is very unusual and I was wondering if it was because he wasn't really tired yet. I'm also wondering if dropping the third nap would help him to sleep longer in the morning. But at the moment he still seems to really need it, he settles really easily for the third nap and is in much better form afterwards.

 

[littledemonme]

Hello! I saw a reply from bumpontherun about sleepsense in a babyclub thread and after a whole hearted recommendation I bought the programme thingy so I am after any advice I can lay my hands on before starting. So wanted to tell you a bit about us in case you have any advice:
DD, Lyra, is 10 weeks old and will not sleep at all in the day hence my desperation as she is constantly tired and grumpy, either crying or feeding for most of the day, she won't even sleep in the sling anymore. Lyra was forceps delivery, she was battered and bruised and had an infection and jaundice, she then kept dropping weight so we got into a pattern of feeding absolutely on demand whether it was constant or not. She now has a habit of only falling asleep when feeding, can actually feed while sleeping and just refuses to sleep in the day but will cat nap on me for 15 mins max.
At night after bath, expressed bottle and bed she will sleep from 7.30 till about 11.30-12. But then she's up evry hour till 5am - then she's absolutely up and no getting back down.
She sleeps in an amby hammock at the moment as she hated her moses basket and we thought that it might help with her neck/back problems (caused by delivery, seeing chiropractor and craneal osteopath). Seems like we need to get her into a cot though to do sleepsense so fingers crossed that will arrive today. She's also been swaddled and won't sleep without being tightly wrapped, but know I shouldn't be doing this much longer (and she's escaping and waking now) so figured we'd tackle everything in one as I'm dreading the crying and put her in a grobag when we start... Also, my mum lives 600 miles away but is coming to stay this week so I thought I'd get her to help if she can.
SO..main questions are - on the border of 3 months - should we be picking up, consoling and then putting down? Not sure how this will work as when little one cries the only thing that will console her is nursing
How long did it take you?
Anything help you cope?
Any advice at all grately appreciated!
Thank you!

 

[polaris]

Hi littledemonme and welcome!

Sounds like you are having a stressful and exhausting time of things, hopefully sleepsense can make a difference to your LO's sleeping, she will be so much better form during the day too when she is sleeping properly. I have to say that although Thomas's sleeping is not perfect, it is about a million times better than it was before I started the programme.

I would play it by ear a bit with the pick-up put-down, if it is making her more distressed then just try consoling her in the cot/hammock instead. A few of the ladies on here have started sleepsense with babies of your LO's age so they should have some helpful advice. I don't see that you would NECESSARILY have to move LO to a cot to start sleepsense, I haven't used a hammock but wouldn't she be able to self-settle in a hammock too? I'm not sure what age you can use a hammock until though so I guess if you are going to have to transition at some stage then maybe you might as well just get it all over with in one go as you say.

The crying will break your heart but might not last as long as you are expecting - I actually found that Thomas cried for LESS time settling in the cot than he was crying while being rocked to sleep. Bedtimes are the easiest to work on to start off with. It is fine to work on bedtimes first and tackle naps and night-wakings at a later stage, once she has got the hang of falling asleep without nursing at bedtimes. Alternatively if you are very brave you could try tackling naps at the same time. Naps are hard though and generally associated with a lot more crying than bedtimes in my experience. It sounds like your LO is in a good routine with bedtime as she has her long stretch of sleep after she goes down at 7.30, so I would personally start working on self-settling at bedtime first.

Good luck with it, please let us know how you are getting on, this is a great thread and everyone is really supportive.

PS - I love your LO's name!!

 

[Poppy7]

Hi everyone,

Just dipping in quickly to say hi and that Elliott is still doing so well. Generally wakes once a night now....sometimes if he woke early (say 1am) he sometimes wakes again at 5am ish...however after a quick feed he goes back down again until 7am ish!! Dummy is still a distant memory and sleep continues to go very well.

POLARIS.....Elliott has started dropping a nap too!! He is going longer between naps and sleeping for quite long at a time hence some days, one nap is enough. For example he will wake at say 7am....1st nap is at 9.30am for say 1.5 hours. He will then stay awake until 2.30 - 3pm and then sleep for another 2 hours.....this then keeps him awake until bedtime. He also cried when I put him down for a nap the other day as he simply wasn't tired. That's how I realised he is managing to stay awake for longer now. I think it is common at this age as my friend's little girl is doing the same. Some days Elliott has slept for 2 - 3 hours for his 1st nap after he has not long woken up!! His afternoon nap tends to be the longest though.

He is changing every day. Is Thomas crawling properly yet? Elliott hasn't got up on to his knees yet but is managing to get around well by rolling!

I hope everyone else is okay. Bye for now.xxxx

 

[polaris]

Hi Poppy, great to see you popping in and good to hear that Elliot is doing so well with his sleeping. Thomas is sort of crawling but his technique is still a bit unusual, he gets up on his hands and knees and moves his legs properly but he moves both arms at the same time. But he's definitely mobile now and can move pretty quickly when he sees something that he's not normally allowed to have, LOL. He still doesn't really roll though!

 

[PieMistress]

ARGHGHGHGHGHGH - Ok, not SS related but I have broken pretty much a whole tooth off - mwahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh <sob sob sob>

It looks absolutely terrible and there is just one edge left of it. Thankfully managed to get an emergency appt tomorrow morning with the dentist (the receptionist kindly said I can take Kyle in with me but that would just add to the trauma so OH is going to come and meet me and take him).

Unfortunately he's a private, not NHS dentist, so my freebie dental treatment won't apply! Think it will need a crown

Off to play some Guitar Hero on the Wii before bed to take my mind off it - am gutted!!!

 

[history_girls]

Evening all

Well great night again last night but got up at 5.15 and no stopping her. So we had a family cuddle dog and all in bed until 6am. Or as Phoebe saw it climb all over us! So I'm off to bed in a bit for an early night once the football is finished (Brother in law is portugese and promised to run around the street in his pants if they win so go Portugal)

Hi Littledemonme
You poor thing! We saw a cranial osteopath as LO was so scrutched up inside for 9 months that she hated lying down. After 3 sessions she was such a better baby. We didn't sleepsense until just shy of 5 months but wished I'd done it earlier. The crying is tough but we only had two days of it for night time sleeping before the big improvement. We have had nights of crying since but the first few ones are tough. Great your mum is coming down - you will need the support. Does she sleep in her pram at all? To try and get some more sleep during the day will help with nightime.

Polaris - Phoebe is nine months on the 18th and when with me has 3 naps a day and on a good day 2 with the childminder. So work that one out!!!! I think she still needs 3 but her first nap is getting shorter and shorter.

PM - our two hour awake is turning into 3 at the moment and on some days she will do 4! Depends on her night.

Poppy - nice to see he is still doing great!

 

[hivechild]

Welcome littledemonme!

Well I'll try and write more later when I'm not on my phone but I think operation nap time bootcamp may be just a little too successful! Ronan has been asleep now for 3 hrs & 20 mins!

He was only doing about a half hour all day yesterday and this morning. He stirred but hadn't woken fully at 45 min and I put my hand lightly on his back for about 10 secs and he settled back, and then the same thing again when he cried out in his sleep at around an hour and a half and since then he's settled himself when he's stirred a couple times.

Of course I've been stuck in the nursery watching over the whole time and now I actually want him to wake up so he can go to bed on time!

 

[polaris]

Hi everyone.

PieMistress - Owww, you poor thing, hope your dentist appointment goes well, I am not a huge fan of getting anything done with my teeth and how depressing having to pay for it privately as well.

Historygirls - 5.15 wake-ups are no fun! Thomas does the same if I try to bring him into bed with us, he thinks it is fantastic fun and climbs all over us and pulls my hair and sticks his fingers up my nose or into my eyes. Not very relaxing!

Hivechild - that is a mega-long nap! It's fantastic that he is adjusting so well to the new nap routine though!!

 

[hivechild]

Hello! I saw a reply from bumpontherun about sleepsense in a babyclub thread and after a whole hearted recommendation I bought the programme thingy so I am after any advice I can lay my hands on before starting. So wanted to tell you a bit about us in case you have any advice:
DD, Lyra, is 10 weeks old and will not sleep at all in the day hence my desperation as she is constantly tired and grumpy, either crying or feeding for most of the day, she won't even sleep in the sling anymore. Lyra was forceps delivery, she was battered and bruised and had an infection and jaundice, she then kept dropping weight so we got into a pattern of feeding absolutely on demand whether it was constant or not. She now has a habit of only falling asleep when feeding, can actually feed while sleeping and just refuses to sleep in the day but will cat nap on me for 15 mins max.
At night after bath, expressed bottle and bed she will sleep from 7.30 till about 11.30-12. But then she's up evry hour till 5am - then she's absolutely up and no getting back down.
She sleeps in an amby hammock at the moment as she hated her moses basket and we thought that it might help with her neck/back problems (caused by delivery, seeing chiropractor and craneal osteopath). Seems like we need to get her into a cot though to do sleepsense so fingers crossed that will arrive today. She's also been swaddled and won't sleep without being tightly wrapped, but know I shouldn't be doing this much longer (and she's escaping and waking now) so figured we'd tackle everything in one as I'm dreading the crying and put her in a grobag when we start... Also, my mum lives 600 miles away but is coming to stay this week so I thought I'd get her to help if she can.
SO..main questions are - on the border of 3 months - should we be picking up, consoling and then putting down? Not sure how this will work as when little one cries the only thing that will console her is nursing
How long did it take you?
Anything help you cope?
Any advice at all grately appreciated!
Thank you!

I started with Ronan at 7 weeks and honestly, I felt much like you did as he would not settle on his own. I was surviving on 3-4 hours sleep a day on a good day and only getting sleep in 30-40 minute increments if I was lucky!

I thought I would have a much harder time of it, and in the beginning, it is hard and you do have to be strong because it takes a lot to not 'interfere.' There's also a fair bit of trial and error to figure out what works and what doesn't.

Anyway, I'm going to just ramble from hereon out so kudos to you if you can keep up and make it through!

- I'm sure the hammock would be fine, but I would personally transition to the cot if it's something you plan to do within the next few months anyway. I think for Ronan a big part of being able to self settle was having the freedom to move until he was comfortable. Again, you know your baby girl best so I guess play it by ear. If you really want to keep her in the hammock, no doubt you'll make it work. My only other concern would be the 'sleep prop' of the natural swaying motion of the hammock.

- We did pick up/put down with Ronan. I would probably try that method first and if it doesn't work, try some of the other ones out. I liked the pu/pd because it meant I didn't have to let him cry and could be there as soon as his grizzling and moaning escalated.

- Because of the nursing association, you may find that having your mum do the pick up/calm/put down will be easier for all of you while you remain out of Lyra's range. I know that seems horrible, but my hubby and I found that Ronan settled so much better when he couldn't see me/smell my milk, and the only times he really needed me was when he was overtired and absolutely inconsolable. Like everything else, you know your baby girl best, and if she is having a really hard time of it, of course you should be there for her.

- On the overtired thing...this is HUGE. To this day, I will still have Ronan nap late in the afternoon/early evening to ensure my best chances of him not getting overtired, because if that happens everything becomes 20 times harder. 7:30 would have been too early for Ronan to go down for the night at that age, but it may work for you.

He was going down at around 9:30 usually, so I would try and get him to nap until around 8-8:30 and then immediately begin his bedtime routine when he woke up because at any given time, he could only really stay awake for about an hour on average.

- The first night, it took us about an hour to an hour and a half to settle him to sleep and there was a whole lot of picking up and putting down. I was ready to give up, but then like a light switch, he just passed out and slept for a whole 6+ hours! He woke up, had a feed and then went back into his cot and without so much as a whimper, he fell right back to sleep again.

From that point forward, on most nights he only wakes once through the night, sometimes twice. His bedtime gradually crept forward and now he is usually down sometime between 7-8pm. I keep it flexible, again depending on when he wakes from his last nap. His night feed is on average any time between 2-5ish, and then he goes back to bed until sometime between 7-8am, occasionally later and sometimes even a little earlier, but my rule is that morning doesn't start before 7! We'll see how long that lasts for.

It probably took a couple weeks for it to really click on the whole settling himself to sleep but after the first week it got much easier. The key again is to not let Lyra get overtired before bedtime. It took awhile longer for him to figure out how to settle himself back to sleep through the night when he woke and wasn't hungry but he did that all on his own one night (it's somewhere a ways back in this thread if you can wade through it all).

Anyway, I think I've rambled long enough and hopefully I've covered at least a couple of things for you. If you have any other specific questions or concerns, ask away.

Good luck and stay strong! It really is worth it and all of you will be much happier for it in the end.

 

[hivechild]

Hivechild - that is a mega-long nap! It's fantastic that he is adjusting so well to the new nap routine though!!

Funnily, as soon as I hit submit on that post, he stirred and woke up!

I'm really happy that he's doing so well so far. I'm remaining hopeful. I've had to struggle not to give into the temptation to 'just let him take this one nap with me' throughout the day. My hubby worked from home today and kept checking in with that concerned look on his face and asking 'is he ok?' 'are you sure he's ok like that?'

Tomorrow is going to be a bit of a challenge since we're going to a local farm to go strawberry picking in the morning, and then grandma is meant to be coming by so we can go out for a bit of shopping, so I hope it doesn't throw him off too badly since we're just starting to see progress!

 

[hivechild]

PM - Ouch! You poor thing. Hopefully getting it fixed won't cost too much!

HG - I'm not looking forward to the day when Ronan decides that despite mummy's declaring the day doesn't start until after 7, that he's going to enforce a new rule that has him up with the birds. Of course, early morning family cuddles aren't so bad.

Poppy - Glad to hear that everything is going so well on your end and Elliot is doing great. He'll be crawling before you know it no doubt!

 

[TennisGal]

Ladies!

Sounds like all your LOs are doing fabulously well

P - DD dropped her third nap around about the same age as Thomas is now (I think) She now tends to have an hour in the morning, and up to two hours in the afternoon. She's currently not napping in her cot (but I think it's just too hot)

PM - OWWWWWWWWW. You poor thing.

HC - hope Ronan is a-ok after his jabs. Such a horrid experience, isn't it?

Littledemonme - welcome!!

poppy - so glad to hear things are going well!

Cattia - is Abigail better?

HG - a Spain victory! I'm addicted to the sport at the moment

Hi to everyone...am still trying to catch up!

Well, DD is NOT sleeping well at the moment...I presume it's the heat. We've put her routine back an hour, so she's in bed for around 7:45 instead of 7-ish...but she howls Her little face is red, her hair goes manic and she's sitting in the corner of her cot holding her arms up...so, I have to say, we've been pretty bendy with the SS rules. Last night was a bit better, but she woke for a feed at 3am, then started to climb on DH, sit up, clap her hands and generally aim to have a rave. She ended up sleeping with us.

Her feeding is also pretty erratic, she hardly BFd at all yesterday and day before - but has been happily tucking into solids. I guess it's her way of cutting down...

Anyway, we're popping into town to get her some new toys later - I bought her some v.cute summer rompers yesterday, and she's currently eating them (straight out of washing machine!)

It's a GREAT day for tennis, so am having a little word with the lady to see if she could time her nap for a good match :laugh:

She's just worked out how to open cupboards and crawl - so lots of babyproofing awaits.

Big hugs to all - and it's definitely ice cream rather than choccie weather

 

[polaris]

Hi everyone.

Well we are still having the difficulty of early wake-ups - 5.20 a.m. this morning - way too early - but on a more positive note he slept right the way through from 7 p.m. until 5.20, yay!!! He didn't really seem hungry so I tried to resettle him without feeding but he wasn't going back to sleep and then started properly crying so I got him up for the day at five to six. He didn't look for a feed until 6.45 though so that means he went a full 12 hours without a feed!

So I have been doing lots of reading about early wake-ups and it turns out that they are the most difficult sleep problem to solve. Not what I wanted to hear. There is lots of different advice but everyone seems to conclude by saying that some babies are just early risers and you might just have to learn to live with it. I would love to stretch him even an extra half an hour or so to 6 a.m. though, there is something all wrong to me about getting up before 6.

Anyway my newest plan for combating early wake-ups is as follows:

1. I got a new curtain rail for Thomas's room so that the curtains will be flush to the wall and light won't get in the top - I'm sure the morning light is disturbing his sleep and preventing him from getting back to sleep if he does wake up. Hopefully OH will put the new rail up for me tomorrow.
2. I think I am going to go cold turkey on the 5 a.m. feeds (eek!!). It is only 50:50 at the moment whether he will go back to sleep after a feed once it is after 5 a.m. and I hope that if I just stop feeding him at that time then he might sleep a little bit longer in the morning.
3. I am going to go back to offering four breast-feeds during the day to make up for the night-feed that he will no longer be having.
4. If he does get up very early, I am going to do my best to keep him up until 9 a.m. for his morning nap to stop him from using his morning nap to compensate for early waking - and to try to keep the rest of the day on schedule.
5. If none of this works, I might look at dropping the third nap, that would probably mean giving him an earlier bedtime for a bit as he probably wouldn't be able to make it through to 7 p.m.


How does this plan sound to everyone? I'm feeling very apprehensive about dropping the night feeds but I will still be offering four feeds a day which is all that he is taking at the moment. I'm sure that he doesn't need the night feed but so so hard in the middle of the night!

 

[TennisGal]

Good news on the sleeping through

That plan sounds good - and I'd be really interested to know how it goes, as I am a fellow Mummy of night-feedee!

I'm trying dropping the afternoon feed, as DD is so uninterested in it...and hoping that means she has a much better feed before bed.

Quite confusing to know what best to do!

I'd say, also, that I noticed DD slept a bit longer when she moved onto two naps.

Lots of luck, and let us know how it goes - certainly sounds like it should see some positive results!

 

[history_girls]

PM - I am so scared of the dentist I haven't been for a year. I shake and go all unneccessary! I hope it went ok today and you are not to traumatised. I think I said during labour I prefered that to the dentist. I still would prefer to give birth!

We had a fab night total silence until 5am when OH had to get up, so I popped her in with me and shut my eyes and she went out til 6.40!!! Which was lovely. Went to bed like an angel but I'm hearing shufferling on the monitor.....

Hive - what a nap! It freaks me out when Phoebe does this!

 

[littledemonme]

Hivechild, Polaris and all - thank you so much! The cot only arrived today so we're starting tomorrow. I'm worried about the nap thing, it's so hot she won't even sleep on me and is desperately overtired. I can't wait to get started though.
Thank you again!

 

[polaris]

Thomas only had two naps again today - I didn't really plan it but it just worked out that way, so I think he might be transitioning to two naps naturally. First nap from 8.45 until 10.15 (woke him at 10.15, he would have slept for longer if I let him), second nap 1.30 until 3.20. So no time left in the day for a third nap. He was in fantastic form all evening and not tired or cranky at all. I put him to bed a quarter of an hour early as I don't think he can manage much more than three and a half hours and he settled perfectly and haven't heard a thing from him since.

So my plan is that I will not feed him until at least 6.30 tomorrow morning. Wish me luck!! He has had four good breastfeeds today and loads of food too. His feeding actually went a lot better than normal today and I think it was because he didn't have the night feed. So he was actually hungry for his morning feed for a change and the whole day just went more smoothly. I really hope I can stick to my plan but it's not easy in the middle of the night.

 

[PieMistress]

Evening All,

Well, not a good day really (okay, not all of it was bad - my boy was a total joy all day and I had a lovely afternoon with my friend and her daughter) but it started with a £50 dental bill (on the flip side my dentist is quite dishy so was bearable) but then some eejt drove into the back of our camper van Kyle got a fright and started crying but was then okay. Now I have the whole insurance palava to sort out - it's just a big hassle but I am thankful that we are both okay and it was only a prang rather than a full on accident.

Polaris - What you have written about early morning wake ups is exactly what I have been reading. We have started with no night feeds before 2am. So if Kyle wakes up for a feed before then OH will go and settle him (with or without protest from Kyle!). If he wakes up after this then I will dash in and feed him. We will then start to move this but at the moment will do the one night feed for a couple more weeks. 6am is the earliest I'm willing to start the day! I'm slowly extending Kyle's awake time inbetween naps. First thing he can still only really go 2hrs but inbetween his AM & PM naps have managed to push it to 2.5hrs.

Littledemonme - Good Luck! There is a fantastic support network here x

History - I would also prefer to be in labour than go to the dentist!! It wasn't too bad today though as I always have the injection beforehand - such a wuss!

Tennis - did you see the tennis? I totally missed it inbetween my slightly traumatised day!

Think I need some retail therapy tomorrow! Kyle's back pack carrier arrived today, so chuffed - can't wait to take him out in it this weekend!

xx