Sleep Sense Support Group!

[PieMistress]

Cattia - Our situations do sound similar! OH is prepared to do all of the night 'not feeding Kyle' settling (phew). The other night he woke up at 11pm for a feed and I knew, after a big feed at 7pm that it really shouldn't be hunger. I didn't go in and after he babbled to himself for about half an hour he fell asleep until 2.30am (I fed him then). Last night though he woke up at half past midnight and was crying and I just didn't know if he was hungry or not so fed him. I knew he'd be up again before the day started and he was awake at 4am and babbled to himself until after 5am. I am going to discuss with the HV about going cold turkey on all the night feeds and see what she says? I'll still worry about doing it though even if she says go ahead and from what i've read they shouldn't need a night feed after 6 months but that doesn't make cutting them out any easier though!

Polaris - I read with interest that cutting back Thomas's morning nap to 1hr helped him sleep longer in the morning? Can I ask where you read about that or was it something that you just tried and have had success with?

TG - Hi! Sorry to hear about your finger!!! Yummy for praline flakes though

HG - It's even stupidly hot in NE Scotland! Not as back as when we were in Dumfries but not far off! I always have a dilemma over what to put Kyle to bed in when it's this hot and I know it's gets cooler about 4am (so now i'm wondering if this is why he keeps waking up at this time?)

Hive - Is that the last of his jabs for a while now? I want to change Kyle's bedtime routine to incorporate a story after his feed but can imagine that might cause carnage for a few nights. Will hold off till I get his night time feeds sorted I think ?

Kyle is still having 3 naps a day. I can't imagine when he will be ready to drop his cat nap - any ideas what age this is roughly at?

I must admit I never thought I would get to 6 months and he still wouldn't have slept through the night - crazy eh! Ignorance is bliss when you're pregnant isn't it!

sleepy dust to all! xx

 

[Cattia]

PM- I would have been HORRIFIED if someone had told me that I would go 6 months without an unbroken night's sleep! I really thought that most babies slept through from about 2 months - how little did I know! Actually though, although the night feeds are not ideal, you do kind of get used to it. I spoke to my HV about dropping night feeds, and she was all for it. She definitley thought Abigail was feeding to settle herself rather than out of hunger, and I think she's right. The other night she had a formula feed before bed as I was working late and hadn't left any EBM, then a BF 'dreamfeed' when I got in at about 9pm, and she still woke the same time as usual, about 1am. I am sure she can't be hungry, especially as in the past she has gone through to 4am (only once or twice though).

Polaris - good for you that you;ve cracked the early wakings. Abigail also wakes at about 5am but then goes to sleep again, which is OK when I can sleep until 7.30 when she wakes, but now I am having to get up at 6am for work, 5am wakings are not working for us. Her morning nap is never longer than an hour though, none of her naps are. In fact I was sure that by this stage we would have at least one longer nap, but we don't, except on the odd day and for no apparent reason. Babies eh!

Anyway, I have a little case of that Sunday night feeling so I just ate a crunchie ice cream. Highly recommend them ladies.

 

[Foogirl]

Anyway, I have a little case of that Sunday night feeling so I just ate a crunchie ice cream. Highly recommend them ladies.

Mmmmm, I love the popping candy in the chocolate on the outside. Nummy Nummy

 

[hivechild]

Ronan was much better today (and like I guessed, he woke up around 4 last night for his feed!) but he seems to be going through a bit of a spurt and feeding a lot more. Either that or he's catching up on the last week or 2 of barely eating through the day. He went to grandma's this afternoon so hubby and I could go out for a couple hours to a friend's and I gave him a good solid feed before leaving but less than 2 hours later my MIL called me to say he had been inconsolable and was getting worse so I had to go back. He often goes 3-4 hours and even then doesn't show a lot of interest so I was surprised that he was actually hungry and fed like he hadn't been fed in ages!

We upped his ranitidine dosage after his pedi appointment as well, so I'm not sure if the increased feeding is because he's less uncomfortable? Chalk up another little mystery my monkey has tossed at me!

PieMistress - This was his second set (first lot was at 2 months) and I believe his next lot is at 6 months. I dread them more the older he gets. I'm just glad that I can at least nurse him straight afterward which calms him (and me) immediately.

As for adding storytime into your routine, in the very beginning I would just talk to Ronan using the same tones I tell stories in, making up nonsense stories or going over what we did that day or what we had to look forward to the next day while I was burping him and then for a little bit beyond that as I was walking him over to put him down in his cot. The transition from doing that to actually reading from a short book went far smoother than I expected and we've gradually gotten into reading longer stories, so maybe it's worth trying something like that?

 

[polaris]

PieMistress - I can't remember where I read that about the morning nap, it was on the internet somewhere. It was basically saying that if baby is waking up very early e.g. 5 a.m. but then going down for an extended nap of two ro three hours after a couple of hours, then shortening the morning nap MIGHT help to extend nighttime sleep. The theory is that the long morning nap should actually be joined onto the nighttime sleep. You have to try and keep the baby up a little bit longer before putting them down for their morning nap and then limit the nap duration.

Anyway it didn't work for us this morning, Thomas was awake at 5 and didn't go back to sleep. I really really hate 5 a.m. wake ups. I think he might be a bit constipated though as he had a poo shortly before 6 and it was quite hard. Also he didn't really nap properly yesterday as we were out visiting so he just catnapped in the car-seat on the way there and back, so that could have interfered with his sleep too.

I have a bit of a dilemma about feeds too. Thomas is currently on four milk feeds a day and also a night feed. But I really struggle to get him to feed properly during the day except for at his bedtime feed. I have been reluctant to let him drop a daytime feed because obviously I would prefer if he dropped the nightfeed. But now I'm wondering whether he might actually feed better during the day if I dropped him to three feeds a day? What do you all think? I do still feed him on demand if he looks for a feed but he generally doesn't, so I have been offering a feed once it gets to 4 hours. Do you think it would hurt to try dropping him to three feeds a day, if he wants a feed sooner I would still feed him. The only thing I would worry about is that it might interfere with his lunchtime nap if I dropped his mid-morning feed (which I think is the one he would like to drop as he really doesn't take very much at this feed).

 

[PieMistress]

Lat night Kyle went to sleep with a little fuss (less than usual) maybe because he was in bed for just after 7pm rather than 7.15pm. Who knows! He then went through until 3.30am (!) he hasn't done this for weeks and weeks! He didn't even wake up crying but babbled to himself for half an hour so I left him but he then started crying on and off so we left him a little longer but unfortunately ballsed up because I then worried he was hungry so fed him when in hindsight I should have gone straight in but, I wanted to give him the chance to settle himself.

This is such a MINEFIELD!!!

Polaris - At 8 months I think you could go cold turkey on the night feeds but it would probably require your OH to go in and soothe him? I think he would then up his daytime milk intake? At the moment though we are finding that Kyle is settling better if OH goes in and gently talks to him, checks he is okay then leaves the room (so more the 'leave & check' method). If OH stays in the room and gently ssssshhhh etc then Kyle now seems to get more and more worked up. So we seem to have totally changed the soothing method in Sleep Sense from 'Stay in Room' to 'Leave and Check'. No idea if this is okay though.

I would keep him on 4 daytime milk feeds and see if how he goes without a night feed?

It's all so very difficult isn't it. I question myself every day if i'm doing the right thing! I can't believe some people have a second baby so quickly after the first! My brain is still seriously sleep deprived! xx

 

[cutie4evr01]

Hi everyone! Well we had 3 good nights in a row of solid sleep from 6:15-2:00ish, so I thought she had found a new pattern. But then last night she woke at 10pm, and we decided to see if she would settle without feeding. I was a little anxious about this because it had been 4 hours since her last feed, but since she had slept so much longer the nights before, I thought she probably didn't need feeding. My DH went in to shush her two times, but with just a little whining she was back asleep by 10:20. She again woke at 11:30, and we decided to try again, and this time she never even got to a crying/shouting stage, just a little talking and whimpering, so we never even went in and she was quiet again by 11:40. Then she woke at 2:45 and cried out, so I fed her then, and she woke again at 5:15 but this time my DH went in to shush her again and she slept from 5:40-6:40 and then got up for the day. So we had 4 wakings, but she managed to settle without feeding for 3 of them! Although I am exhausted this morning, I am so proud of her and us! Previously she does wake in the night sometimes and talk a little or sneeze or shuffle around, and put herself back to sleep, but usually anytime she called out (cry or whine or whimper), I would run and feed her. So we're going to see if we can hold her at one night feed for now, and then deal with getting rid of that one sometime later.

PM, we do 'leave and check' also - she gets much more wound up if we stay in there. Usually we just check in and shush a little until she's quiet, and then leave. Sometimes she fusses and we come and check again, and sometimes she doesn't fuss at all and just babbles to herself until she's asleep. My husband is eager to have a second baby any time now! He mentions it at least once a day. I think I wouldn't mind either, as I'd love for them to be close in age and get through all the diapers/sleepless nights/etc. in one go! But we will have to wait a little longer as I haven't gotten my periods/ovulation back yet!

Polaris, that is tricky about the feeds. Maybe PM is right about trying to drop the night feed and he may take more in the day. Alternatively, I think at 8 months it's ok if they are only on 3 day feeds as long as they are having solid feeds also. You could try one option or the other for a few days and if it's not working out, try the other.

 

[polaris]

Well Thomas seems to be making the decision for me in relation to the feeds. I offered him his feed at 11.30 and he took literally one suck and then pushed me away. He's gone down for his nap now, I just hope he doesn't wake up early because he's hungry! I was talking to a friend who formula feeds though and she was saying her LO is only having three bottles a day and he is younger than Thomas so I'm hoping that it will be OK.

PM - I know I could go cold turkey on the night feeds, he doesn't actually need feeding at night, I do know this. But at 5 a.m. I will normally do anything to try and get him to go back to sleep for a bit! Mind you I fed him at 5 this morning and he still didn't go back to sleep. Maybe if I stopped feeding him he would stop waking at 5. I have always said that I will give him until 9 months to see if he drops the night feed by himself. So I will give him until the end of July, then go cold turkey. I will still have another two months August and September before I'm back in work so hopefully I should be able to encourage him to drop the feed by then.

Cutie4ever - well done on resettling without feeding! It is much harder than just feeding them but hopefully the night wakings will go down dramatically now.

Oh by the way, we do the Leave and Check method now too. Thomas isn't able to go to sleep with someone in the room because it is too distracting for him.

 

[PieMistress]

Polaris - I'm the same! I fed Kyle this morning at 5am (after he had babbled/mantra cried on and off since 4am) in the hope that we would get some more sleep. More for OH having to go to work than me as he was sat there with his head in his hands. I feel bad for him as he does so much to help me! Kyle's room is right next to ours and even without the monitor we can hear every little peep (both being light sleepers doesn't help).

I also know deep down that he usually has a long morning nap because he hasn't slept well during the night, today I woke him up after 90 mins - not sure if that was wise but i'm having to experiment at the moment!

I've been doing a lot of reading today (mainly on BW forum) about how common 4/5am wakenings are but there is such a lot of conflicting info around. One other theory is that the late afternoon cat nap can cause early wakenings (Kyle is not ready to give this up yet, I need to extend his awake times gradually to get there but have read they should drop this by 6 months??). Another suggestion was wake to sleep but i've never heard anybody have a success story with this? Another was to do anything you can to get them back to sleep ie/ rocking them etc but we haven't all put in such hard work to go back to using a prop (feeding doesn't count in this instance!) ;-P

I'm back to work in August and have given Kyle until the end of July (when he's just over 7 months) to drop the night feeds by himself. OH thinks we should do it sooner but given that he's not really on solids yet either (doesn't seem interested in food yet) I know i'd constantly worry about him crying and being really hungry or thirsty (this was my worry last night with it being so warm). I also need to start thinking about dropping breast feeds at some point. He will take a bottle from OH but admittedly i've never tried to give him a bottle !

Cutie - Well done on the re-settling without feeding. It's really brave! My OH is quite happy with just the one, i'm on the fence about it at the moment but given that i'll be 38this year I couldn't dilly dally about it!

Better grab some lunch whilst he's sleeping! He's gone to bed with butternut squash encrusted on his face - he hates having his face wiped so have left the hardened stuff until his bath tonight

 

[PieMistress]

PS - How many BF a day were your babies on when they were 6 months? Kyle is having anything between 5 and 7?

 

[polaris]

PM - Thomas hates having his face washed too. It is nearly impossible to clean it properly, he just wriggles away and then starts SCREAMING.

At six months, Thomas was on five feeds during the day plus one night feed. He dropped a feed shortly after starting solids so he went to approximately four hourly feeds plus one night feed.

 

[cutie4evr01]

Christina won't be 6 months until next week, but we aren't planning to start solids until then, so I imagine she won't lose any feeds between now and then. She usually has 4-5 in the day and 1-2 in the night, so 5-7 overall. But we are going to try to hold her to only 1 at night from now on, so hopefully she'll be at only 5-6 in 24 hours.

Did you all notice a lot of extra feeding with the 6 month growth spurt, or will solids maybe take care of that?

 

[polaris]

Christina won't be 6 months until next week, but we aren't planning to start solids until then, so I imagine she won't lose any feeds between now and then. She usually has 4-5 in the day and 1-2 in the night, so 5-7 overall. But we are going to try to hold her to only 1 at night from now on, so hopefully she'll be at only 5-6 in 24 hours.

Did you all notice a lot of extra feeding with the 6 month growth spurt, or will solids maybe take care of that?

I think he went to two night feeds instead of one for a couple of nights. But I didn't really notice the 6 month growth spurt as much as earlier ones.

 

[hivechild]

Ok, so I'm torn and need some help/opinions!

I decided this morning we would start nap time bootcamp, and just my luck he decided it was time for an explosive diaper blowout when I tried settling him so by the time that got cleaned up we were entering dangerously close to overtired territory. I put him back down and he immediately started in on the pre-breakdown whinge. It started to escalate so without thinking about it really I turned him onto his belly, pat his back for less than a minute until he calmed down and almost as soon as he was calm he fell right asleep!

The thing is, until now almost all of his naps have been on me on his belly. I'm obviously concerned about him sleeping on his belly and hubby doesn't like it, but Ronan has really good head and neck control, and it's only for napping since he settles well at night on his back or more often on his side.

So my dilemma is, do I put him down for naps on his belly, maybe start doing them on his belly until he is more into the whole routine and used to not sleeping on me then try putting him down on his back, or do I suck it up from the get go and keep putting him down on his back?

 

[polaris]

I think I would put him down on his belly personally. At four months he is getting past the highest risk category for SIDS and as you say it is only for naps.

 

[hivechild]

Thanks. I think I'm going to keep doing that. I just tried once more for his second nap on his back and he had a major meltdown crying for almost 5 minutes while I was cuddling and trying to calm him. As soon as he stopped I put him down on his tummy and he went straight to sleep again.

 

[polaris]

Thanks. I think I'm going to keep doing that. I just tried once more for his second nap on his back and he had a major meltdown crying for almost 5 minutes while I was cuddling and trying to calm him. As soon as he stopped I put him down on his tummy and he went straight to sleep again.

I actually wish Thomas was able to sleep on his tummy so I didn't have to go in and roll him back onto his back when he rolls over in the cot at night!

That's great that he is settling so well for naps on his tummy - Yay!!!

 

[history_girls]

My my you lot have been busy on here today! So much to catch up on but grabbed a and read up! It is still stupidly hot here today and school was unbearable. Luckily I only had one lesson and then spent the next 5 hours tidying my office. Tomorrow will be hell in the heat.

LO didn't wake up until 2am where I must admit to popping a dummy in and off she went. She woke up at 5am where upon OH gave her a snuggle and she went back until 7.30!!! a nightnare when we have to be out of the house by 7.50. She went down tonight quite well and only a few mumbles down the monitor.

Hive - thanks for your bit on story time. I've been wanting to add a story in might try it at the weekend Glad Ronan is a bit better. i would pop him on his front - My OH and brother never slept on their backs as babies and as Polaris says past the worst for sids.

PM - in the heat I made her a cotton sleeping bag out of an old sheet and that seems to be helping. Tonight she is in a vest to help.

Cattia - glad school is ok. Best to save the tough stuff until the holidays, do what you can until then. Four weeks today will be the holidays!!!!!

Right better go do some washing up! OH is claiming his illness (a cold) is life threatening

 

[Cattia]

Hi all :wave:

Interesting that so many of us are having the same sort of issues with these night feeds. I'm thinking we'll have to try going cold turkey on them over the holidays, becasue as I sai before I really can't see how Abigail can honestly be hungry.

Polaris, I am in a similar situation to you with feeds. Abigail is really losing interest in the mid morning feed, but I don't know whether I should drop it or not. I am not sure that she really takes much, as I can easily go through to the afternoon before pumping at work which makes me think I'm not needing to produce a lot in the morning. I think I am going to go for cutting out the night feeds before the daytime ones though.

PM - Abigail has four daytime feeds but at least two at night

HG - I know what you mean about school - waaaaay too hot to get anything much out of the kids. Our staff office is honestly like an oven.

Well poor Abigail still has a horrible cold and about an hour ago she woke crying, and had been sick in her cot Not much but enough that I had to change the sheet and mattress cover, amazingly she seemed to calm down after I did that and has gone back down, touch wood. I have changed my days this week so I am not working tomorrow, so at least I get to give her some TLC. She actually slept better than normal last night despte being totally full of cold, maybe it was the calpol!

 

[PieMistress]

Morning All,

How was last night for everyone?

We have decided to do things in stages and get Kyle down to one night feed for a while and then get rid of the last one. So, it's the first night feed that we decided to drop first as this then makes the early morning wake ups a bit easier to deal with (hopefully). He woke up just after midnight, babbled then started crying. He cried for just under half an hour with OH going in every short while to reassure him and then leave the room. He fell asleep until 3.30am when as soon as I heard him I pretty much went in and fed him. I really don't want him to get mixed messages about when he is going to get fed and when he isn't? It's not very fair on him. He then slept till 7am though.

Started introducing a second meal today - breakfast. He really eats very little but it gets him used to food being offered to him and he can take as little or as much as he wants. I was keen to do BLW but we are now veering more towards TW (basically because i'm back to work soon and am not 100% convinced that the nursery will do it properly as they haven't heard of it) but with finger foods straight away as he's over 6 months. He won't let me spoon feed him anyway and he prefers to pick up the bowl and put his face in it, put the spoon in his mouth himself or just lick the tray! He loves gumming down on chunks of mango, parnsip and courgette so far. Not sure how i'm going to get out and about now i've to try and organise 2 meals into the day as well!

Kyle has a BF, then approx an hour later I offer him food? What do others do?

Cattia - hope Abigail's cold is better? Kyle had a bad cough and cold a couple of weeks ago and it totally threw him off kilter (went back up to 2 night feeds then never dropped the second one).

Cutie - Kyle is just over 6 months and i've been wondering about the growth spurt. I have noticed he is BF for longer at feeds rather than his usual sub 10 minutes but I don't notice it as much as at the 4-month growth spurt?

Better try and get some brekkie myself whilst he's napping!

PS - How long are your LOs usually awake in the morning (and rest of the day) before you put them down for a nap? Kyle can only stay awake for 2hrs first thing but have managed to push him to 2.25hrs before his lunchtime nap and same again before his cat nap.

xx