Sleep Sense Support Group!

[polaris]

Good morning everyone!

Thomas had a lie-in until 7 a.m. this morning!! I think the blackout curtain is working! He did have a quick night feed at about 4.30 but straight back to sleep until 7! I couldn't believe it when I looked at the clock, it's a LONG time since he slept that late!

Hivechild It does sound like he could possibly be coming down with something, the poor thing. But then again sometimes they just have random nights like that. I remember having one of them with Thomas about a month ago and I said it to one of my elderly neighbours that I was worried that he was coming down with something and she said 'don't worry too much, sometimes they just do that and we can never work out why' and it turned out she was right as the next night he was back to normal and no bug ever materialized. Hope that's the case for Ronan too!

PM - glad you are feeling a bit better about things. I actually felt so relieved when I decided to go back to feeding Thomas at nights, so I knew that I had made the right decision for me.

Cutie4ever - yay for good sleep and long naps! That is so interesting because the exact same thing happened to Thomas exactly when he turned six months - it was almost as if by magic! I do think that longer naps may have a big developmental component for some babies. LOL at nodding and smiling at your paediatrician and just carrying on with what you have decided.

Littledemonme - how are things going?

TennisGal - hope all is good with DD?

Has Jacs been around here recently - was just wondering how she is getting on.

 

[history_girls]

Evening all Ladies,

I'm getting irritating. LO is still sleeping through and getting up early. Although at 5am I wasn't getting up so popped her in bed with me as OH had left for work and we had the most gorgeous snuggle until a late 6.45!!! made rush for work though... I am very grateful for my nights.

Hive - Phoebe had that screaming fit a few weeks back and next day broke out with the most massive cold. Hope he hasn't but at least if he does you sort of know what was wrong. I just wish they could tell us what is wrong..... Hope he settles well for you tonight.

PM - When Phoebe gave up her night feed at 6 months she did it once and we then decided to only feed her if it took over an hour to re-settle her. I've only fed her once since then and that was when she was poorly. She is FF so probably lasts longer between feeds. It wasn't plain sailing and many a night Oh and I would have a row at about 2am normally as I wanted to give in and snuggle her back to sleep and OH was on a sleepsense mission with her being in her cot. I can't do screaming that well at 2am. I think we sort of went through 3 weeks of us settling her by snuggles after she gave up her night feed and now I know she isn't hungry when she wakes in the night but is ravenous at 6.30am!! Hope that gives you something to think about but he will get himself there. Phoebe is a different sleeping baby this last week to 4 weeks ago, they develop for the better so quickly. Hang in there.

Polaris - lovely lie in. Good old Thomas giving you a treat!

 

[littledemonme]

Oh dear girls - I need your moral support. Nights are still same-ish - Lyra is sleeping from 7-11, 11.30 - 2.30, then 3-4, 4.15-5.00, 5.15 -6.00, but I can live with this - she's 12 weeks tomorrow.
BUT naps have now turned into a nightmare. Yesterday Lyra screamed - and I mean breath holding, turning purple, lung busting, distraught screaming for the full 1hour 10 mins, then after another hour put her back down only to go through it again, I bundled her in her pushchair and she finally went to sleep after I'd walked for miles 40 minutes! So I walked a few more miles to make sure she got about an hour.
Today has been the same - I had to take my mum to the station so our morning attempt was slightly short of 1hour 10 and I have only just managed to get her down at 2pm (started trying at 7.30am). I honestly can't bear how distressed she gets, we aren't picking up and comforting as this accelerates the hysteria, the gentle touch doesn't calm her and now neither does the repetitive phrase, to get through the last bout of crying I just read from a book to keep me calm more than anything and she nodded off because she was exhausted bless her.
Why is it getting worse? Should I expect this? I'm at the point where I would rather she slept on me than put her through this distress.
Heeelllpppp please!
Sorry for the rant, very tired and over emotional.

 

[polaris]

Oh dear girls - I need your moral support. Nights are still same-ish - Lyra is sleeping from 7-11, 11.30 - 2.30, then 3-4, 4.15-5.00, 5.15 -6.00, but I can live with this - she's 12 weeks tomorrow.
BUT naps have now turned into a nightmare. Yesterday Lyra screamed - and I mean breath holding, turning purple, lung busting, distraught screaming for the full 1hour 10 mins, then after another hour put her back down only to go through it again, I bundled her in her pushchair and she finally went to sleep after I'd walked for miles 40 minutes! So I walked a few more miles to make sure she got about an hour.
Today has been the same - I had to take my mum to the station so our morning attempt was slightly short of 1hour 10 and I have only just managed to get her down at 2pm (started trying at 7.30am). I honestly can't bear how distressed she gets, we aren't picking up and comforting as this accelerates the hysteria, the gentle touch doesn't calm her and now neither does the repetitive phrase, to get through the last bout of crying I just read from a book to keep me calm more than anything and she nodded off because she was exhausted bless her.
Why is it getting worse? Should I expect this? I'm at the point where I would rather she slept on me than put her through this distress.
Heeelllpppp please!
Sorry for the rant, very tired and over emotional.

You poor thing that sounds so unbelievably stressful. The poor pet must be so overtired too as it sounds like she's hardly sleeping during the day.

What sort of length of time is she awake for before you put her down for a nap? What are her tired signs? I found with naps that timing was everything, too early or too late and we had a battle on our hands. Is she able to self-settle now at bedtime?

I found that naps were so much more difficult than night times so if it is getting too much then I would be inclined to focus on bedtimes and night wakings and just do whatever works for the time being for naps to make sure she gets decent sleep during the day so she's not overtired by bedtime.

 

[Cattia]

Hi all,

Sorry I have not been on for a while, now I am back at work I am busy busy busy!!
Hive - I loved your pictures of you and Ronan swimming. Gorgeous! I hope you have recovered from your awful night and that Ronan has not come down with anything. Poor Abigail had a terrible cold the other week, but luckily it didn't last too long.

HG - amazing to hear you are having such good nights. It must make school a lot easier.

PM - we too are going through the whole night feed dilema and I am currently trying to reduce to one night feed but like you, worried about giving mixed messages.

Polaris - great that Thomas has been sleeping through! It must be nice that he has done it even though he doesn't always do it, at least you know he can.

Littledemonme, we went through this exact thing with Abigail. IN the end, I had a 20 minute rule (can't remember now whether it was SS or whether I just made it up!) If she would not settle after 20 minutes, I would get her up again, and then try again about half an hour later. For the last nap of the day I would just take her out in the pram if she didn't settle, but she seems to have dropped this catnap most days now. I also made sure that she had at least one good nap a day, so if I had to take her out to get that then I would. I would certainly start with the early morning nap as that seems to be the one that they settle most easily for.

Well, things have been mixed for us. As you know, since I have been back at work, I decided to just feed Abigail as soon as she woke up so that we could get a bit more sleep.However she has been waking up three times every night, so for the past couple of times, I have been trying to get down to one feed, and we have managed it for the past two nights. When she wakes at about midnight, I leave her for ten minutes, and if she is still moaning I go in and put her on her side (I don't really like doing this but DH discovered it and it seems to work, plus she rolls over onto her wide herslef now anyway). I give her her blankie and stroke her tummy and so far she has settled back down. The next time she wakes up is about 1-2am and for that waking I have been able to leave her and she has settled within ten minutes. The last waking seems to be happening at about 4am and I have been feeding her then as I worry that she is hungry, but also from a selfish point of view, I have to get up at 6, so I want to get the last couple of hours sleep in! I am worried though that this is giving her mixed messages. I think we are going to keep going with it for the next week, then when I finish school, I might try to re-settle for that feed too.

 

[history_girls]

just a quickie before bed

littledemonme - this sounds just like our nap attempts in the early days. I think i spent one whole day getting her to nap and when OH came home i collapsed! I think i then gave it a break for a few days and let her snuggle to sleep or go out in the pram. Then I tried again. I think it is 3 days for a baby to get a new routine idea into their heads so it is probably still early days. I always did a wordsearch when she was crying to stop be blubbing my heart out. I think with my LO she eventually got it. but also I always put her down now at the first sign of sleepiness as any overtiredness ruined any self settle attempt.

Hope that made sense?

 

[hivechild]

Just a quickie here too as I'm beat! The last 2 nights have been pretty rough with Ronan waking around 1:30 and then 3-4 hours later and then wanting to be up for the day far too early after that so something is definitely out of sorts with him. He had a bit of a runny nose this morning but seemed to be ok (if a bit tired and crabby) the rest of the day.

Naps have been going ok. I don't know if anyone else's LO's do this, but there are times when at the end of a sleep cycle, he starts screaming and crying. If I 'interfere' or get him up, he wakes fully but is obviously still tired. I have never been able to figure out why as he doesn't seem to have wind or gas or anything like that, and if I just leave him to it, as hard as it is, after 5 minutes he sinks back into the next sleep cycle and usually stays asleep for another 1 1/2-2 hours, occasionally more.

He did this when he was sleeping on me so I pretty well figured out that there was little to nothing that I could do about it other than let him go at it for the 5 minutes, or to wake him up. I'm not sure why but it took me until a few days ago to realize that he still does it now that he's sleeping on his own in his cot. I guess I've been feeling guilty about not cuddling with him so much with his naps so as soon as he was waking and whinging (or crying) I was rushing in to get him up but then I stopped for a minute the other day and recognized what was going on so I just stood there, so desperately wanting to be able to comfort him until it was over. I know it's better for him to get more sleep but I feel awful leaving him to scream like that because I'm not cuddling him anymore when it happens and I don't feel like resting my hand on his back is enough.

Anyway, to those of you having good to okayish nights, yay (and I'm a wee bit envious right now)!

littledemonme, how is Lyra settling at night? I'm hardly a good advocate for sleepsense with naps as Ronan had the hardest time settling during the day on his own at that age even though he learned to settle really well at night. Whether I should have stuck with it or not, who knows, but I didn't! Up until very recently I have been happy to let him nap on me, or in his pram on walks etc. I waited until I felt like he was more ready for it and when it was becoming uncomfortable for both of us for him to nap well on me. As it is, even though he settles just fine at night on his back, I am putting him down on his tummy for naps during the day.

When I first started with all of this, I would try to get him to self settle for his first nap of the day and if he did I would try for the next but if he didn't after the first I didn't even bother for the rest of the day, and as long as I could get him to nap and nap well through the day even if it was on me, I was ok with that because it helped him sleep better at night and having a decent night's sleep made anything during the day that much easier to cope with.

I hope you can find something that works for both of you!

 

[PieMistress]

Hi Peeps,

Hope you are all well. Things are NOT going well with us, they are slipping rapidly down a horribly steep slope into numerous night wakenings, unable to settle and generally very upset I think we might have broken his trust by not feeding him and doing 'leave and check' and now, it's all up the spout

The first night after we decided to go back to all night feeds he slept through until 4am! However the past 2 nights he has woken up at 11.30pm (cried briefly back to sleep), 00:30 (cried then stopped for ages, cried then stopped, this went on for over an hour - didn't know what to do as no sooner as he started crying then he seemed to stop again), 04:00 (feed). 05:00 (cried briefly then stopped), 06:00 (up for the day). Timings are approximate. I was reading the BW Solves Your Problems book and according to that it sounds like a classic case of mistrust ?? Problem is now that I haven't a scooby what to do!! When we woke up at midnight crying I knew he wasn't hungry (had 5 good BF and 7oz of formula before bed) but just didn't know what was wrong. When I went in to settle him and touched him he went MENTAL! He definitely doesn't like that anymore and just prefers gentle words. I just don't know how to settle him properly without feeding him? I am toying with PU/PD but I think that will confuse him even more??

ARGHGHGHGH, OH and I have had 3hours sleep the past 2 nights and we are so jaded

I did wonder if it was because he was now actually managing to swallow some food (and i'm offering 3 meals a day) so it could be the solids that are waking him up (or am I looking for any excuse?!). I'm torn between leaving him 10 mins now to see if he settles himself, or going in as soon as I hear him to let him know we are there for him and trying to settle him without a feed (any tips?)

Hive - these LO certainly keep us on our toes don't they! The lack of sleep is really now starting to affect me and I'm starting to dread night-times Kyle sometimes cries at the end of a sleep cycle during his naps - I just cross my fingers and hope that he goes back to sleep! It can be 50/50 whether or not he does if he wakens!

Cattia - it sounds like you are doing well in managing to reduce the night feeds! I just wish there was an obvious step by step way to do these things so that I can be consistent rather than not really knowing if/what i'm doing is the right thing - do I feed? do I let him cry? do I try to settle him? do I pick him up? etc etc etc. I think i'm in the middle of a down on the rollercoaster sleep wise and am hoping for some improvement soon!

LittleDemonMe - the crying and screaming is just heartbreaking isnt it I'm totally with you on being overtired and overemotional! It's just so difficult isn't it. Naps were terribly hard for us at the start and I remember being in tears all the time. I think at 12 weeks Kyle was only able to stay awake for 90 mins before needing another nap (so would aim to be putting him down in his cot by 90 minutes so would start his wind down about 15 mins before this)

History - did you decide then that there would be crying for an hour (did you 'leave and check'? and if she was still upset after that length of time you would feed her? When you settle her with snuggles did you actually take her out of the cot and cuddle her until she calmed down?

Polaris - I'm so chuffed that Thomas is sleeping through! You are giving me HOPE!!!!

We are going away this weekend and there is so much stuff to pack for one night so after swimming that's what i'll be doing today. It's in a caravan so hoping there aren't noisy neighbours!

Sorry if i've missed anyone xxx

 

[polaris]

Hi everyone.

PM - I don't know if it's connected but Thomas went through a totally rubbish phase with his sleep starting from about six and a half months - not settling well at bedtime, lots of random night wakings (not for a feed). It lasted about four weeks I think. At the time I put it down to his vaccinations, then the hot weather starting, then a cough, then teething. But it seems that a good few people on here have found that their LOs go through something similar at about six and a half/seven months. So possibly it is a developmental thing? I don't know about breaking his trust - that doesn't really ring true to me. I think at this age they start to put things and realize that their behaviour influences your behaviour and they also start to realize that you are not a part of them and sometimes you are there and sometimes you are not. I don't think you should worry that his trust is broken, he's such a happy little boy and I'm sure he knows he's loved.

Cattia Great to see you popping in. Bet you can't wait for the summer holidays - not long now! Sounds like you are doing well on reducing the night feeds - I have found that last feed is definitely the hardest to drop.

Hivechild - Thomas does that sometimes during his naps and at night time too. I have learned to ALWAYS leave him for at least a couple of minutes as sometimes I have gone into him because he was crying and he was not even awake.

Well, the last four nights Thomas has gone back to having a night feed, so not sleeping through anymore. But the good news is that wake up times for the past four mornings have been 6.30, 7, 6, and 7 again this morning! Which is a HUGE improvement on 5.30! I actually prefer a quick night feed and a lie in until 6.30 or 7, to 'sleeping through' but waking up at 5.30!

 

[PieMistress]

Thanks Polaris,

When Thomas had that period of night wakenings did you go in and use Sleep Sense to get him back to sleep (ie. staying in the room and using your key words)?

We were doing so well on one night feed for weeks and weeks then he got a bad cough and cold last month and it's been downhill ever since!

 

[polaris]

Thanks Polaris,

When Thomas had that period of night wakenings did you go in and use Sleep Sense to get him back to sleep (ie. staying in the room and using your key words)?

We were doing so well on one night feed for weeks and weeks then he got a bad cough and cold last month and it's been downhill ever since!

I found that staying in the room with him made him worse so what I was doing was more similar to the leave and check method. So I would go into him and check if there was anything wrong, then I would normally give him a little cuddle if he was upset, then put him back in the cot and tell him 'sleepy time' and leave the room. He might cry for a few minutes then but it was normally going back to sleep crying and he would generally go back to sleep within about ten minutes. But if he wasn't settling or was getting worked up again I would go back in and repeat and if he wasn't settling at all then I would feed him. But there was only three or four nights that he ended up having two night feeds, mostly I was able to keep him to the one.

 

[hivechild]

Ugh. Another horrid night here. He woke at just after 10 pm (wtf? He's never done that!) full on crying and squealing and would not settle so I fed him again and he had a good solid feed. Then he woke again around 4 after only 5 hours sleep and again wouldn't settle until after a big feed. He went down just after 5 until 8. I feel wrecked and a little bit lost as to what's going on. I'm actually worried that he's starting too want feeding more at night because he has not been feeding well during the day despite my efforts to get him to eat.

We're going to have a nice boring day at home today with naps in his cot and nothing but the dog to distract him from his feeding. Let's hope that helps get him back on track!

PM, sorry things aren't going so well for you either atm. I think our LO's need a good talking to!

Polaris, I'm glad Thomas is sleeping in now with that one feed. I prefer that myself too when the monkey is hasn't been replaced by this temperamental changeling I don't know!

 

[megewansmum]

Hi Littledemonme

Sorry for the delay in responding there was a problem and I haven't been able to log on for days.

Firstly I'm so very sorry to hear that you are having such a rough time. I hadn't heard of Sleepsense until after I had been trying Baby Whisperer techniques without success for almost 3 months. I started trying to get little one on a feeding and sleeping routine at around the same age your little one is now. It is absolutely soul destroying seeing your baby going through learning to sleep and I often felt how unfair it was when other mums used to drag there little ones everywhere with them and they just slept whenever, wherever.

The answer to your question is my daughter didn't start on a four hour routine until around 5.5 months when I started Sleepsense. It was feed on demand until 3 months then I struggled to even get her to every 3 hours. As she was so tiny the pediatrician had told me to feed her whenever she woke which inadvertently created the nurse to sleep situation that took so long to break and the reason that she never learned to put herself to sleep. The instant I heard a noise I would whisk her out of her crib and feed her. At worst she ended up waking every 45 minutes to 1 hour all night long and that is when I decided that enough was enough.

I had to hire Pam Nease to get the personal support. Her cost is $395 but that is for help for life too. She is based in BC Canada but helps clients round the world via the internet. We started with an almost 2 hour Skype chat and then regular chats to give updates and receive advice.

It is so great that this site has this support group as I think nothing is more difficult than going through sleep issues and especially naps. I still hate naps and long for the day that my daughter no longer needs them. They are so limiting and I have stopped going to baby group as when she transitioned from 3 naps to 2 it fell at just the wrong time for her. Like Polaris I have set times for my daughter which I think we both find much easier. She has no sleepy cues at all and just gets fussy. Although I'm looking forward to only having her nap once a day I'm actually dreading the transition. There is nothing worse than messing with napping!

Please don't lose hope. It may take some time but it will definitely improve.

 

[history_girls]

PM - So sorry it is crap at the mo When we went through the worst stage we had to walk her around the block at midnight to stop the 5 hour screamathon. Luckily that was two nights. We made the decision that if we couldn't get her to settle via SS after 20 minutes in the middle of the night then we would get her out of her cot, into the nursing chair for a snuggle. We would either put her down asleep or very dosy. We had to do this as she gave up her night feed one week before i started back to work and i couldn't cope with sleepless nights. Up to midnight we would do SS unless she was hysterical.

I can't say why she then started to go through. If I really think I would put it down to her getting older and developing. 6-7months was a bugger a night but 8-9 is going great

Now she likes us to check and leave. She hates pu/pd but likes her monitor playing music to her. Does he have a nunu (a comforter?) Phoebe won't go to sleep without hers now. So much so i paid 15 quid on ebay for a spare (only cost 3 quid new!!!)

Hive to you to. Aren't you having a massive heat wave too at the mo?

 

[hivechild]

We are but we have central ac in the house so I don't think the heat could really be having that much of an effect on him unless we're out and about. Either way, luckily it seems like the heat is breaking. Looks like we have a rainy weekend ahead of us too.

 

[Cattia]

OK, I need some advice ladies. We have managed for the last two nights to not feed Abigail until 4.30am. Well, last night I re-settled her at about hlaf past midnight, but then when she woke up at 3am she would not re-settled. DH and I both tried, and we'd get her to settle for a few minutes then she would start crying again. I was determined not to feed her before 4am because otherwise I felt like the work of the past two nights would have been for nothing. So, I gave her a bottle of water, and she drank a fair bit. I then left her wide awake and she settled back to sleep, until 5.30am when I fed her, after that she slept until 8.30!

What I want to know, is is it bad to be giving her water? Is it really just the same as feeding her? It didn't put her back to sleep, but could she just as easily rely on the bottle of water as on the BF? It still means that she did not self settle until after the water, so I am not sure whether we did the right thing or not. What it has confirmed to me is that she CAN go through to 5am without a feed, so that does give me more confidence in dropping the night feeds. Hope everyone is having a good night so far!
x

 

[polaris]

Good morning everyone!

Thomas slept until 7 again this morning, yay!! (with a night feed though at about 4.30). He has cut right back on his daytime naps so I do think maybe he was actually napping too much in the day so he had got enough sleep by 5.30. He was napping about three hours and forty five minutes or four hours a day, whereas now he has cut that right back to only about two and a half hours a day.

Cattia - everything I have read says that it is much better to give water than to feed as they are much less likely to keep waking for water than if they are getting a feed. So I think you are doing the right thing. Well done on resettling her, that is great that she is able to go through without a feed!

 

[Arcanegirl]

Hey guys havent been here for a while
Its hard to keep up with alot of threads as well as keeping on top of mod duties, but i hope you dont mind that im back for some advice.

Sleepsense has been going realy well for us, and still is. Alex settles brilliantly but recently there seems to be a change in the little routine we had to get him down, or rather were trying the routine and Alex rather than just cudding in and acepting hes going to sleep is now resisting and fighting. He throws his blanket, struggles when you hold him to get a sleeping bag on, doesnt want cuddled and struggles more. Its far from relaxing so it ends up were just putting him straight down.

Hes still falling asleep though! but its 50/50 if he goes with no fuss or not.

Im not sure what to do?

 

[polaris]

Hey guys havent been here for a while
Its hard to keep up with alot of threads as well as keeping on top of mod duties, but i hope you dont mind that im back for some advice.

Sleepsense has been going realy well for us, and still is. Alex settles brilliantly but recently there seems to be a change in the little routine we had to get him down, or rather were trying the routine and Alex rather than just cudding in and acepting hes going to sleep is now resisting and fighting. He throws his blanket, struggles when you hold him to get a sleeping bag on, doesnt want cuddled and struggles more. Its far from relaxing so it ends up were just putting him straight down.

Hes still falling asleep though! but its 50/50 if he goes with no fuss or not.

Im not sure what to do?

Could be just a phase that he's going through? Personally I'd just stick with the routine and I'd say he will probably just go back to just accepting it soon. He could be just testing the limits a bit, but it sounds like he is tired if he's going to sleep, so once he realizes that you are in control of bedtime and you are not backing down he will stop fighting it, does that make sense?

 

[Cattia]

Hi all,

Thanks Polaris, I hope I am doing the right thing, although last night I managed to re-settle without feeding at 3am without using water, and I then fed at 4.30am. When I feed at that time (finihsing about 5am) I don't then feed again before breakfast. My cunning plan is to get her consistently on just that feed, then gradually work at brining it forwrard so that in the end she has it at 6am and is having no night feeds.

Archangegirl, I agree with what Polaris says, it sounds as though it is just a phase, I think the best thing you can do is probably just to be consistent and keep doing what you have been doing so that bedtimes stay the same even if his behaviour is changing. I hope thngs settle down for you soon!