Sleep Sense Support Group!

[polaris]

Hi all,

Thanks Polaris, I hope I am doing the right thing, although last night I managed to re-settle without feeding at 3am without using water, and I then fed at 4.30am. When I feed at that time (finihsing about 5am) I don't then feed again before breakfast. My cunning plan is to get her consistently on just that feed, then gradually work at brining it forwrard so that in the end she has it at 6am and is having no night feeds.

That's not a bad idea - I have been feeding Thomas again at about 7.30 and then giving him his breakfast at 8 - but maybe I should just try what you are doing too. Do you then feed him after his breakfast before he goes for a nap or just leave it until after he wakes up from his first nap?

 

[megewansmum]

Can I ask your advice please...I really am worried about my DD. She is tiny at just over 17lb at 8.5 months. Thanks to sleepsense she does STTN but last night she only had 1oz before bed then this morning when she woke 2.5ozs. She hardly touched her breakfast, refused her bottle when she woke from her nap at 11am and hardly touched her lunch. Her next bottle isn't til 3.30/4pm when she wakes from her second nap so she's only had 3.5ozs since last night I'm absolutely beside myself. Due to her size she can't afford to lose any weight. I've given her Advil incase its down to teething. Don't know what else to do.

She's also started crying before naps, crying when she wakes from naps and seems fussy all day long. She cries when I leave her at bedtime too. She is also going through early wakings at 5.30am but as she hardly has any of her morning bottle I know its not food related. I did wonder, like you Polaris, if she's actually having too much daytime sleep at 2 x 1.5hour naps a day. I had heard that if it gets harder to put her down for naps and she starts resisting then they are trying to transition to 1 nap a day. But isn't she still too young for that?

I have to say with all of her issues from birth and with the nightmare sleeping issue and her lack of eating I'm finding it so difficult. Its so hard as I emigrated to Canada 3 months before she was conceived having been told we probably would never have children and have no family or long term friends here. I feel so lonely and such a failure. Sometimes I think I must be doing something wrong and that she would've been better off with another mummy

 

[littledemonme]

I wish I could help but I'm a first time Mum and can't offer any advice, does Canada have anything like NHS direct where you can call anytime for help/advice - not eating is a really tricky one.
Thinking of you, let us know how she gets on.

 

[Cattia]

Can I ask your advice please...I really am worried about my DD. She is tiny at just over 17lb at 8.5 months. Thanks to sleepsense she does STTN but last night she only had 1oz before bed then this morning when she woke 2.5ozs. She hardly touched her breakfast, refused her bottle when she woke from her nap at 11am and hardly touched her lunch. Her next bottle isn't til 3.30/4pm when she wakes from her second nap so she's only had 3.5ozs since last night I'm absolutely beside myself. Due to her size she can't afford to lose any weight. I've given her Advil incase its down to teething. Don't know what else to do.

She's also started crying before naps, crying when she wakes from naps and seems fussy all day long. She cries when I leave her at bedtime too. She is also going through early wakings at 5.30am but as she hardly has any of her morning bottle I know its not food related. I did wonder, like you Polaris, if she's actually having too much daytime sleep at 2 x 1.5hour naps a day. I had heard that if it gets harder to put her down for naps and she starts resisting then they are trying to transition to 1 nap a day. But isn't she still too young for that?

I have to say with all of her issues from birth and with the nightmare sleeping issue and her lack of eating I'm finding it so difficult. Its so hard as I emigrated to Canada 3 months before she was conceived having been told we probably would never have children and have no family or long term friends here. I feel so lonely and such a failure. Sometimes I think I must be doing something wrong and that she would've been better off with another mummy

It really does sound like teething, also Abigail gets like this if she is coming down with a cold or soemthing. Does she eat solids? Can you mix some milk in with food that she likes? Maybe with some baby rice or even some fruit puree?If she is acting out of sorts,then I would just do the best you can with naps and if she naps better when out and about in the pram, then maybe take her out for one nap aday for now,so that she gets some sleep. I am sure you are a fabulous mummy, do you have any friends from mother and baby groups etc that you can talk to?

 

[Cattia]

Hi all,

Thanks Polaris, I hope I am doing the right thing, although last night I managed to re-settle without feeding at 3am without using water, and I then fed at 4.30am. When I feed at that time (finihsing about 5am) I don't then feed again before breakfast. My cunning plan is to get her consistently on just that feed, then gradually work at brining it forwrard so that in the end she has it at 6am and is having no night feeds.

That's not a bad idea - I have been feeding Thomas again at about 7.30 and then giving him his breakfast at 8 - but maybe I should just try what you are doing too. Do you then feed him after his breakfast before he goes for a nap or just leave it until after he wakes up from his first nap?

Polaris, I have just dropped the morning feed on the advice of the HV, as she was hardly taking anything, so now we are on just three feeds a day, the morning one, mid afternoon and evening (plus whatever she takes at night, but at the moment the night feed doubles up as the morning one). That means we are on three feeds a day, which HV says is OK for her age. I also mix milk in with her breakfast sometimes as well,and give her plenty of water with meals so she does not get thirsty.

 

[PieMistress]

Hi Peeps,

Just back from a weekend away staying in a caravan with Kyle. He did well considering it was a new environment and his routine went up the spout for 2 days (different nap times and lengths and a later bedtime). He woke up at 11.30pm absolutely howling though with his teething After some hugs and calpol he went back to sleep WITHOUT A FEED (!) He then woke up at 4am when I fed him (babbled to himself for about half an hour before falling asleep) and he slept through until 7am. Tonight though we had to put him to bed much earlier at 6.45pm as he'd been awake since 4pm. Fingers crossed! I know we can expect consequences from mucking up his routine for a couple of days but am hoping he won't be too bad!!

I've also been wondering about duration of daytime sleep. At the moment I try not to let Kyle have more than 3.5hrs of sleep spread over 3 naps. I don't think he's ready to drop the cat nap yet.

Polaris - what sort of length and duration of morning and afternoon naps is Thomas having now? I've managed to push Kyle so he can normally stay awake for 2.5hrs inbetween naps but in order for the cat nap to be dropped at some point i'll need to extend this further. Isn't Thomas a wee star for sleeping so well! x

Megewansmum - Do you have a Health Visitor in Canada you can speak to? Loss of appetite and sleep are both 'classic' teething symptoms. When Kyhle is teething or has a cold he barely feeds and can drop down the centile but makes up for it when he is feeling better. I think 3hrs of daytime sleep is okay at 8.5months? It could be possible that she might be going down for a nap too early and is able to stay awake a bit longer (so she is maybe going down undertired rather than overtired - we went through a phase of this so I started pushing Kyle's awake time in 10 minute increments). Are there any Mother and Baby groups near you? x

Cattia - I am so please for you in getting down from 3 night feeds to one. That is fantastic news (and gives me hope!!). When you are settling Abigail do you stay in the room with her until she has gone back to sleep using your key phrases? We are finding that is working better for Kyle at the moment (which is what we used initially then changed to 'leave and check' which caused mayhem!). It's a good idea what you are trying to do in pushing her night feed out to a morning feed. Let us know how it goes! Kyle's milk feeds are always when he wakes from a nap and not before so I'd maybe have to sneak one in when he has his solids if we were to try that (need to get him established on one night feed first though!). I seem to perhaps be excessive as Kyle is on 6 milk feeds a day (approx 7am, 11am, 3pm, 5pm and a bottle of forumula with OH at 7pm + a night feed - although we are doing BLW and he is more playing than eating at the moment). He is never that hungry for the first feed of the day though which is why i'm never convinced he is that hungry at night! Is Abigail established on 3 meals a day now?

OH has the day off tomorrow (phew, we are knackered after packing so much stuff just for one night away - unpacking the van takes ages!).

Time for some cheesecake Sleepy dust everyone!

Pie xx

 

[polaris]

Hi everyone.

Megewansmum - that sounds very stressful hun. Go easy on yourself though, you are definitely not a failure, I don't know you obviously but just from what you have posted on here you sound like a fab mummy who will do whatever is needed for her baby. It is hard enough trying to figure out what is the best thing to do without beating yourself up too! It does sound like she could be teething as she is off her food and generally cranky. Will she drink from a cup at all, apparently sucking can hurt the gums so you could try giving her some milk in a cup. She won't starve though, I really do believe that they will take what they need, but it is so stressful when they won't eat but the worst thing you can do is to get too tense and stressed about it because they pick up on your tension. They also start going through a bit of separation anxiety at about this age so there could be a bit of that thrown in too. Honestly these babies have so many little phases, just when we think we are getting on top of things they throw a curve-ball and us mummies are back to feeling like we haven't a clue what we are doing. Your LO is almost the same age as Thomas, when is her birthday? Thomas is 27th October. He is fairly small too, 17 lb 13 oz when I got him weighed on Friday, but I've never really worried about it as he always looks healthy, just muscly rather than chubby, LOL.

Cattia - that is interesting about the feeds. I am sure I could drop Thomas's morning feed as he is more interested in solids in the morning anyway. But I don't want to mess with things at the moment as we seem to be getting into a nice little routine now. But definitely something to bear in mind for the future.

PM - hope you enjoyed your weekend away and so glad that Kyle coped so well with it, I'm sure he will slot back into his normal routine now that you are back home. Re Thomas's naps - this is our routine now:

Gets up: sometime between 6 and 7 (here's hoping that 5.30 is a thing of the past, LOL!)
Breastfeed: 7.30
Breakfast: 8
First nap: 9 - 10. I put him down for the nap at about five to nine and I get him up at 10 if he doesn't wake up by himself (usually have to get him up).
Breastfeed: 11.30
Lunch: 12.15
Second nap: 1 - 2.30/3. I put him down at about five to one and I get him up by 3 at the latest but he generally wakes before that.
Breastfeed: 3.30
Dinner: 5/5.30
Breastfeed: 6.30
Bed: 7. He is normally in the cot by about ten to seven and will chat away to himself for ten minutes before falling asleep.

This is the first time that I have had fixed times for naps instead of going by awake times. I don't think this would have worked for us when Thomas was younger because he wasn't flexible in the length of time he could stay awake for. His awake times now get longer as the day progresses, so he is awake for 2 to 3 hours before first nap, 3 hours before second nap, and 4 to 4.5 hours before bedtime. 4.5 hours is pushing it though and he could probably do with going to bed at 6.30 if he's been awake since 2.30.

 

[Cattia]

PM - yes, Abigail is on three decent meals a day now, and we have started her on finger foods too, so she will have some toast or a baby biscuit for her afternoon tea! Now that I know she is OK going through to at least 4am without a feed I feel more confient doing it. My methods of re-settling her can be dodgey to be honest. I often stand next to her cot and stroke her back, however I do sometimes find that she will go to sleep this way, and then wake up again a short time later and start screaming.What works best is when I stay with her until she is calm and then leave her and she settled herself, that way she stays asleep.If I leave her before she is really chilled out, she will scream the minute I walk out the door so it is quite an art form!

 

[lisa64]

Hi was wondering if some of you ladies could help with my little girl, she is 8mths sleeps wonderfully at night 12hrs straight, my problem is naps, she is the queen of 45min naps its like she has an internal clock A few months back she was having at least one long nap a day some days even 2 which was great and her mood was excellent. Now she is back catnapping again she is constantly tired grumpy and we have to have at least 3 naps. Any advice would be great.
x

 

[polaris]

Hi was wondering if some of you ladies could help with my little girl, she is 8mths sleeps wonderfully at night 12hrs straight, my problem is naps, she is the queen of 45min naps its like she has an internal clock A few months back she was having at least one long nap a day some days even 2 which was great and her mood was excellent. Now she is back catnapping again she is constantly tired grumpy and we have to have at least 3 naps. Any advice would be great.
x

Hi Lisa, that is great that she is sleeping so well at night, I'm a bit jealous! I've a few questions if that's OK! - What times is she currently napping? Where does she nap? Does she settle easily for her naps but then wake after 45 minutes still tired or is she difficult to settle for her naps? Have you tried anything already to try and lengthen her naps?

 

[lisa64]

Hi was wondering if some of you ladies could help with my little girl, she is 8mths sleeps wonderfully at night 12hrs straight, my problem is naps, she is the queen of 45min naps its like she has an internal clock A few months back she was having at least one long nap a day some days even 2 which was great and her mood was excellent. Now she is back catnapping again she is constantly tired grumpy and we have to have at least 3 naps. Any advice would be great.
x

Hi Lisa, that is great that she is sleeping so well at night, I'm a bit jealous! I've a few questions if that's OK! - What times is she currently napping? Where does she nap? Does she settle easily for her naps but then wake after 45 minutes still tired or is she difficult to settle for her naps? Have you tried anything already to try and lengthen her naps?

Hi polaris thanks for the reply. I know I have been really lucky with her night time sleeping. She normally looks to go down about 2hr 15mins after first wakening, then with these 45min naps she is beginning to get tired about an hour and a half later. I would love to have a consistent nap time because on the days she has took 2 long naps these where enough for her and she was in great form all day. She naps in her cot and settles really well. I have tried wake to sleep with no success and have also tried going in about 5mins before she stirs and tried to sssshh pat her back to sleep no success with this either , I just feel as if am constantly stuck in the house trying to get her caught up on sleep. She just isnt a happy camper at the minute

 

[hivechild]

Just a quickie before bed here. Our nights are still all over the place with him waking stupidly early (generally between 11pm-1am) and then again between 5-6:30ish for another feed before going back down for another couple hours (if I'm lucky).

I'm really hoping he gets past this little 'phase' soon!

 

[polaris]

Hi was wondering if some of you ladies could help with my little girl, she is 8mths sleeps wonderfully at night 12hrs straight, my problem is naps, she is the queen of 45min naps its like she has an internal clock A few months back she was having at least one long nap a day some days even 2 which was great and her mood was excellent. Now she is back catnapping again she is constantly tired grumpy and we have to have at least 3 naps. Any advice would be great.
x

Hi Lisa, that is great that she is sleeping so well at night, I'm a bit jealous! I've a few questions if that's OK! - What times is she currently napping? Where does she nap? Does she settle easily for her naps but then wake after 45 minutes still tired or is she difficult to settle for her naps? Have you tried anything already to try and lengthen her naps?

Hi polaris thanks for the reply. I know I have been really lucky with her night time sleeping. She normally looks to go down about 2hr 15mins after first wakening, then with these 45min naps she is beginning to get tired about an hour and a half later. I would love to have a consistent nap time because on the days she has took 2 long naps these where enough for her and she was in great form all day. She naps in her cot and settles really well. I have tried wake to sleep with no success and have also tried going in about 5mins before she stirs and tried to sssshh pat her back to sleep no success with this either , I just feel as if am constantly stuck in the house trying to get her caught up on sleep. She just isnt a happy camper at the minute

I tried both those methods with Thomas when he was younger and neither worked either. I don't really know what to suggest because you are already doing everything I would have suggested. One thing you could try is messing around a bit with the times you put her down for her naps. I have found with Thomas that he often naps longer if I put him down earlier, before he's actually showing signs of tiredness. I have found this particularly for his second nap - he can easily stay awake until 1.30 or even 2 but I find that he will nap longer if I put him down at 1, he will sleep a full two hours usually whereas if I put him down at 1.15 or 1.30 he will only sleep until 2.30! You could maybe try putting her down two hours after she gets up in the morning and see if this encourages her to sleep longer because she is less tired. Babies of this age apparently often gravitate towards a 2-3-4 pattern for their naps, where they are awake 2 hours before their first nap, three hours before their second nap, and then 4 hours before bedtime. This might not help at all but there's nothing else I can think of as you are already doing everything!

 

[lisa64]

Thanks so much polaris will try her down 2hrs after waking tomorrow morning to see if that helps. It really is so hard to work them out. x

 

[megewansmum]

Littledemonme, Cattia, PM & Polaris thank you all so much for your support and kind words. It does really help being able to talk with people about it.

Thankfully we actually had her pediatrician and nutritionist appointment at the hospital yesterday. The pediatrician checked everything, temperature, ears and eyes aswell as doing her weight and height. She couldn't see anything wrong but said her top gums did look swollen so it may be teething. She did say that they are classic teething symptoms and just to ride it out basically. Her weight was ok though, still tiny at 17lb 12oz at 8.5 months but she has gone up in the percentile chart so she was pleased.

The only thing that concerned her really was the fact that she doesn't seem to be able to bare any of her own weight. She has only just started to master sitting without support and can't yet sit back upright if she topples over reaching for something. She doesn't crawl and hasn't made any effort to at all and can't support her weight when standing. She says we need to practice more of getting her to stand. She thought that it was due to her being so poorly for so many months when she was first born and will now have to play catch up. Nightmare...I only thought I had to worry about her weight but now I'm worrying about her gross motor skills, as she called it.

Littledemonme - Unfortunately as far as I'm aware we don't have anything like NHS direct over here but thankfully we did see the pediatrician.

Cattia - She started solids at 6 months and was doing great until over here they say to give beef after cereals are accepted. Unfortunately she was violently sick and after contacting the pediatrician decided that she must be one of the small percentage of babies with cow's milk protein allergy that is also affected by the meat from the cow too!!! She then started to refuse to eat but after a few weeks got back on track. She doesn't eat much but will try most things. She hasn't got the pincer grasp sussed yet but will just fist finger foods into her mouth but mostly goes all over the place. I do give her pureed foods just to make sure she is eating something. I was advised to give her cereal twice a day as she's not getting the iron from the red meat so she has b/milk on that but she's really gone off cereal and doesn't eat much of it now. I did join mom and baby group here but when she went from 3 to 2 naps a day it clashed so we stopped going.

PM - My hat off to you. You are very brave for going away with Kyle. I'm too scared to even attempt to alter our routine now it seems to be working (recent issue aside). I'm sure he'll get back on track now you're home. I know what you mean about undertired but she's normally asleep within 5 minutes of going down for her naps now so I don't know??? Its so hard this napping business. Somedays I question as to whether I'm doing the right thing or not and whether I'm forcing her to nap when she doesn't want or need to. Its been one of the hardest things ever and something I never thought of at all. I knew there would be sleepless nights but napping has been a horrendous journey...hope you enjoyed the cheesecake

 

[megewansmum]

Hi Polaris - Thought I'd better start a new reply as that one was getting huge!

My Megan is just a couple of days older than Thomas. She was born on 25th October and is about the same size as him too. Although she was slightly bigger at 7lb 13oz when she was born. It's nice to talk with someone with a baby the same age and same size too. Shame you don't live nearer.

Unfortunately she won't drink from a sippy cup or a normal cup she just grabs them and plays with them. If you try to hold them and show her she just goes ballistic and cries thinking you are taking them off her...thats a whole other issue She is definitely suffering with separation anxiety and stranger anxiety too. I can't leave her alone for a minute without her going ballistic. I even have to take her with me to the bathroom! All this on top of teething doesn't make for a happy LO.

Your routine looks great and its fairly similar to ours except Megan goes down later for her afternoon nap. Its really interesting what you said about the 2-3-4 though. I often wonder if she is trying to transition to that although she's been doing roughly 3 hours-3.5 hours between naps since she was 6 months. She used to go down at 9.30 for her first nap but it seems to be getting earlier which I thought was weird as I thought it would get later. Who knows...like you say, when you think its sorted its goes haywire again. Our routine is:-

Wake 6am (just come out of a couple of weeks of 5.15/5.30am too!)
Feed 6.30
Solids 7.30
1st Nap 9/9.15 for 1.5 hours
Feed 10.45
Solids 12.30/12.45
2nd Nap 2/2:15 for 1.5 hours
Feed 3.30/3.45
Solids 5.15
Bath 6.30
Feed around 6.45ish
Bed at 7pm

I'm going to book us in for the next playgroup when it starts back in September for the 1-3 year olds but it starts either at 9am or at 1.30pm for an hour and a half. Both times will cut into nap time but at the moment I'm thinking the 1.30pm would be better. The only problem is that probably half way through the year she will transition to 1 nap a day which I presume will be around lunchtime which means we would miss some of it. Its so difficult as to know what will work best for her. What works now will probably not work later. Or should I worry about that later not now? At the moment I stick rigidly to our routine and its very rare I ever deviate. Having had it so bad for so long I don't want to mess with a good thing. If I ever go out its always when she wakes and before the 2nd nap. She always, apart from yesterday due to the appointment, naps in her crib. I would be interested to see what you think about the baby group times.

Also does Thomas always go down peacefully? Megan does sometimes but she also cries too which is quite distressing. Its not for long and Pam told me that might just be her way to settle herself. Just curious.

 

[megewansmum]

Lisa64 - My Megan was also a 45 minute napping queen. You could set you clock by her. I started naps at around 3 months with her following Baby Whisper methods and it wasn't until she was nearly 6 months on Sleepsense that it started to improve. I was told that 45 minute naps could mean they are overtired so I agree with Polaris on that one. My DD used to wake 45 minutes after putting her down at night if she hadn't napped well that day and she was overtired. It does drive you insane with the short naps as you say it feels like you never leave the house and it messes with your routine too. I like to feed when she wakes from her nap and that gets impossible when she only takes the short naps.

At least your LO sleeps great at night so that's one less thing to contend with...12 hours too. Hopefully you will get the timings sorted and the long naps will return.

 

[Cattia]

Megewans mum - how stressful, it seems as though these folks like us to have something to worry about! I am such a worry wart, I constantly worry about Abigail's development but I am sure all our LOs will get there in their own time. That is interesting that they tell you to give beef, as here we are told to introduce white meat and fish first. Abigail loves fish, chicken she is less keen on although getting better, and when I tried minced beef with pasta she totally refused it! Well, many adults don't eat red meat anyway as it is not thought to be great for your health so your LO will not be missing out I am sure.

Polaris,that is really interesting about the 2, 3 4 rule, I will give that a go as naps seem to be hit and miss with us at the moment.

Abigail had a bad night last night. She woke up at midnight and OH re-settled her, then she was awake again at 1am and I re-settled her, then she was up again at half three. I was determined not to feed her with my new rule, so I gave her water but she kept dropping off to sleep then waking up again. That went on until 4.20am when I gave in and fed her. I do think her teeth were acting up as she was knawing on her fist. Am hoping for a better night tonight.

Today is the last day of term for us so I have the next 6 weeks off Hoping for a good night for you all.

 

[history_girls]

Evening all

So proud of my bubba! Not only does she now refuse to be snuggled to sleep but also put herself to sleep tonight when she went down really awake - spent 10 minutes playing with ele-nu then off she went!!!

Cattia - I've got til the 23rd!!!! so jealous you've finished.

 

[polaris]

Cattia - YAY for summer holidays! That is fantastic, six weeks off, I bet you will really appreciate the time with Abigail. Sorry she had a bad night last night, it does sound like it could be teeth though. Thomas just got his second tooth through today with very little fuss really, although he had a disturbed night on Sunday night and was pretty cranky yesterday, poor mite.

Megewansmum - that is lovely that Thomas and Megan are so close in age and they are very similar in weight too, aren't they! Great that the paediatrician is happy with her weight now and she's moving up the centiles. I'm sure she will catch up with her gross motor development, as you say it's probably just that she had a bit of a rough start, she will get there in her own good time. Thomas is not having separation anxiety yet, that must be pretty demanding at times, not really looking forward to that stage. He has just recently started to be a bit more clingy to me when we are in a strange environment and wants lots of hugs and will snuggle into me, it's quite nice really as he's not really a cuddly baby up till now.

I know exactly what you mean about not wanting to interfere with the routine, I find that Thomas is just in so much better form when he is napping well so I am really reluctant to take him out of his routine. He also always naps in the cot and I go out in between naps and always have him back home for his nap. However I do make an exception and alter his routine a bit on Tuesdays for swimming classes, the class is at 12 so by the time he is showered and dressed and had his lunch it is normally 2 p.m. before he goes to sleep and he always falls asleep in the carseat on the way home and I move him to the cot when we get home. I usually let him sleep a bit longer in his morning nap on Tuesdays so that he doesn't get too tired and it seems to work pretty well as a once a week thing. Tuesdays was a two nap day for us long before he dropped the cat-nap on other days and we have never had problems altering the routine a bit for one day. For the next term of swimming it will be at 3 p.m. in a different pool because I have to change to weekends, so that will mean getting him up early from his afternoon nap, but I'm hoping that I'll be able to work around it again. I think that with a bit of planning you can hopefully come up with a workable alternative routine for the day/s that you have playgroup as it would be a shame for her to miss out. The other thing that I often do is go along to groups a bit late or leave early so as not to interfere with Thomas's routine. I know what you mean about not being able to predict what way they will be napping a few months down the line, it makes it so hard to make plans!