Sleep Sense Support Group!

[polaris]

Also does Thomas always go down peacefully? Megan does sometimes but she also cries too which is quite distressing. Its not for long and Pam told me that might just be her way to settle herself. Just curious.

Thomas usually goes down peacefully now, he will often cry out a couple of times when I put him into the cot but then snuggles into his blankie and all is usually quiet by the time I get downstairs. But he does still cry for a few minutes if I get the timing wrong and he is a bit overtired. I find it very upsetting when he cries before going to sleep but I do think it is part of his settling routine when he is overtired. He used to cry before every single nap which was horrible. He doesn't cry at bedtime though unless there is something wrong and it is a different type of crying when he is tired and settling himself to when there is something wrong.

 

[hivechild]

So much to catch up on! It's hard for me to post anything substantial while on my phone and I feel like I rarely get time to hop on my computer without having a billion other things that need doing.

Our nights are continuing to suck, and to throw a wrench into things even further, Ronan has decided to consistently roll onto his back when I put him down onto his tummy for a nap, squeal and roll about like an upturned turtle for awhile and then start screeching and crying because he won't settle on his back for naps, and while he can roll back to front, he doesn't seem to want to! It's been a fun day...Of course, he's catnapped all day until his last nap now, it's 5:40, he's been asleep since 3:30 and is showing no sign of waking.

megewansmom - glad that the visit went well with your pediatrician. Hopefully it is just teething making her feel a little off and she settles back to normal soon!

PieMistress - That's great that he's doing so well and handled being out of routine like a champ! We're going away for a week at the end of August and already I'm freaking out about how Ronan will handle it. It's only about 6 weeks away from now but he'll be weaning by that point too and things will be so different to how they are now anyway!

lisa64 - There are times I feel like I could set my watch by Ronan's naps too. It's funny how precise their cycles can be, isn't it? I've found that if I leave Ronan for about 5 minutes after he wakes from one, that he'll either settle back into the next one, or not. Other than just leaving him to it, I'm afraid I haven't found anything that works to get him to sleep longer.

Cattia - Yay for end of term! Do you have any big plans for things to do with Abigail over the summer?

history_girls - for Phoebe. It's so nice when they are content and happy going to bed, isn't it?

polaris - It seems like Thomas is really settling into a nice groove with his sleep and naps. Hopefully it won't be long before you can phase out that last night feed altogether! How long did it take him before he stopped crying when going down for naps? Ronan still has a whinge for almost all of his naps before he unwinds enough to settle down. It's so bizarre that he can happily settle at night without a fuss but needs to get it out of his system for naps during the day!

Anyway, sleepy dust for all and I'll keep my fingers crossed that Ronan a) wakes from his nap soon, and b) sleeps like a champ tonight! Mama needs her sleep too. I was awake until around 3:30 last night and then up again just after 7 for the day.

 

[polaris]

Good morning all!

Another lie-in till 7 a.m. (with a night feed at 4.45)! Yay - I am just SO happy every morning that he sleeps until 7! Not just for me but also because I feel that he is getting the sleep he needs too as he is now sleeping almost 12 hours at night (as he is only awake for about 20 minutes for the night feed).

Hivechild - so rubbish that your nights are not good at the moment. They do go through these phases though and I'm sure he will sleep better again once he is out the other side of it. From my experience there doesn't seem to be much to be done except ride it out and remind yourself that it will pass.

Megewansmum - I was just thinking that the separation anxiety could be a big part of why she is so unsettled at the moment. A friend of mine's baby has just started going through it too, he is a few weeks older than Thomas, and she is having terrible trouble getting him to settle at bedtime (he never really settled well for naps but used to settle at bedtime). I'm not looking forward to that stage at all. Does anyone know how long it typically lasts?

I can't remember exactly when Thomas stopped protesting going down for his naps but I know it took ages and ages. I started putting him in the cot for naps when he was four months and it probably took a couple of months before he consistently went down happily for naps - it was probably at about the same time that his naps lengthened (about six and a half months).

 

[Foogirl]

Abby never went through the anxiety stage, but she did have a wobble when she started nursery.

As she has a bed in her room, I would lie down on it until she drifted off. And if she woke in the night I went in to her. Not entirely within the "golden rules" but it was effective and it was short term. It only lasted about a week.

I have no idea how long it lasts as a phase but I'm not sure I would have done that for much longer than a week. Much as it was great to have an excuse to have a little zizz in the evenings, or afternoons when she did, I didn't want to go back to square one.

Maybe you could post a question on Dana's facebook page to see how she suggests dealing with it?

 

[PieMistress]

Hi Peeps,

Hope you and your babies are all well.

Foogirl - I posted on Dana's FB page about disruption to naps when starting nursery but she never posted anything back. Poor Kyle isn't going to know what's hit him when he goes from having his naps in a nice dark quiet room at home to one full of other babies at nursery. Hopefully he will be able to take decent length naps there too and not get woken up after a sleep cycle (after all my hard work!).

Polaris - Kyle also slept until 7am today after a night feed at 3am. We are now not feeding him before this time - last night he woke up at 2.10am and I went to go and settle (not feed him). He wasn't crying (more of the mantra cry) and would go quiet for about 10 mins then start to mantra cry again. When it got to 3am I then fed him (he only took a small feed, wasn't very hungry) and then slept till 7am. I think when he wakens in the night he finds it hard to re-settle because he's just had a good 7hrs sleep so is quite alert and perhaps needs the feed to calm him rather than because he's hungry. Anyway, we are going to go with the 'core night' way of reducing night feeds rather than go cold turkey and see how it goes, and then try to reduce the amount of time he spends feeding as he gets nearer to morning time. Who knows if it will work or not but it's worth a shot.

We are also going to have to start wakening him up at 6.30am if he is still asleep. I know it sounds mad but this is when he will have to get up when I start work and i'd like to get him into the routine now so that his first nap is always at 9am (or thereabouts). On the baby whisperer forum they have recommended that I try to push him to 3hrs awake time between each nap but I would prefer to keep his morning awake time to 2.5hrs, then push the middle one to 3hrs and likewise with the last one. I think he would really struggle with 3hrs first thing (unless he had just had a solid 12hrs sleep). Would love for him to drop the cat nap in the next 5 weeks before he starts nursery! One can hope!

Some mums have commented on the fact that I let Kyle dictate when I go out to do things (based on his naps) and I need to be more flexible. I will wake him up from a nap if he's sleeping too long, due a feed or we have an appointment/scheduled class BUT, I won't wake him up just to go round to visit somebody, I will happily just be late. I think mums who have naturally good sleepers that go all night (without having had to resort to any sleep training methods) don't know how hard it is to be constantly (or at least it feels like it!) battling with sleep issues.

Cattia - how are the night settlings/feedings going?

Hive - two of my favourite sayings now are 'one step forward, two steps back' and 'it's just a phase!!'. I use these all the time when I just can't make head nor tail of his behaviour! Having to throw solids into the mix when we went away this weekend made packing a bit more thoughtful but wasn't too bad. It's more the amount of stuff that you have to pack - it's incredible!!!

Megewansmum - there is a really good book which Hivechild recommended called The Wonder Weeks. It gives good info on separation anxiety. You can read snippets here:

https://www.thewonderweeks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=157

https://blogginaboutbabies.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/wonder-weeks-an-overview/

https://www.livingcontrolsystems.com/wonder_weeks/content_ww.html

Stocked the fridge yesterday to start making some things for Kyle like fish cakes, lentil burgers etc to keep as backup. He is now digesting food as his nappies have really changed!!

x

 

[megewansmum]

Hivechild - sorry to hear that your nights are bad with Ronan. Hopefully last night was better for you both.

Polaris - I'm SO jealous of your 7am wakings. Megan used to wake at 7 but since she started STTN her awake times seem to have got earlier and earlier. Hopefully they will either stick at 6am or get later when she starts to get mobile and more tired. I think separation anxiety is playing a huge factor in everything at the moment as well as the teething issue. I was told that it could last til she is 2

Thankfully she has started to go down peacefully again at night and mostly for her morning nap but the afternoon nap is still hit and miss. I tried to put her down earlier yesterday just to see if that would help but she ended up only having a short nap. She hasn't done that in ages. She woke at 2.30 rather than her normal 3.30/4.00 so I thought she would be horrendous at bedtime at 7pm or need a catnap. However, she was quite the opposite and went to bed peacefully.

PM - Is 9am the time the nursery have their morning nap? What time do they put the babies down in the afternoon? I really worry about napping anywhere other than at home. Here Megan has blackout blinds and peace and quiet. I'm getting so fanatical about it that I try not to have anyone round whilst she is napping, even if something needs to be repaired at home. I have received the same comments from people but I agree with you. Unless you have experienced difficulties with this you really don't understand how hard it is. Thank you so much for the links I'll definitely take a look.

 

[megewansmum]

Hi PieMistress - OMG I have just taken a look at the links for The Wonder Weeks and your right. My Megan is around week 34 which is considered a mental development stage. Perhaps that would explain all the crying, crankiness and clinginess that we've been having. Now I feel really bad as I've been giving her Advil thinking it was her teeth

I wonder what she's working on...hopefully it's trying to crawl. Although she hasn't made any effort to get mobile yet and that is what the pediatrician was worried about

 

[hivechild]

Well the monkey actually slept until just after 2am last night, which is progress even if only a little bit! I'm not sure how tonight will go. I put him down just after 7 and it took him an hour of moaning and squealing and chattering to himself before he fell asleep and I've heard him stir (and resettle) a few times in the past hour or so since then.

PieMistress - I'm glad that we're doing BLW so I don't have to worry too much about what food I need for him. We're staying in a rented house so I'll be packing up food enough for several breakfasts/lunches and an occasional dinner anyway!

megewansmum - I hope that your LO slept well after her mini afternoon nap.

Much sleepy dust for everyone else of course (and if you don't mind I'll be reserving a little extra for Ronan)!

 

[polaris]

So do you remember how I was just saying that Thomas rarely cries going for his naps anymore? Well yesterday and today he has been screaming at naptime - why???

The only thing that is different is that I lowered the cot down to its lowest level (from the middle level) - could that be bothering him do you think? He is a bit sensitive to things like that I think. But he was fine at bedtime last night and through the night. But for his afternoon nap yesterday and his morning nap just now he screamed, when I went up to him he was on his belly and facing the opposite direction (head towards the door) and screaming crying. It took him a few minutes to calm down even when I picked him up. When I put him back in the cot he started crying again but more his 'going to sleep crying' so I left him to it and both times he fell asleep within a couple of minutes.

He also has his third tooth coming through on top and I do think that it is bothering him a bit too.

I wish they could tell us what is wrong with them!

 

[PieMistress]

Polaris - the last time Kyle did this it was because I needed to extend his awake time (I emailed Dana instead of the monthly phone call and this is what she suggested). How long is Thomas currently awake for before naps? Yesterday we had our first 40 minute nap since the start of June!! The last time this happened it co-incided with him crying a lot more before naps so I increased his awake time by 10/15 mins and his naps went back to being 1hr 20mins+. I now need to start working on increasing his awake time to 2.75hrs inbetween his AM and PM naps - fingers crossed!!

 

[hivechild]

Polaris - What a shock that must have been the first time you heard him cry! Hopefully it is just teething, our as PM suggested that he is needing to be put down a bit later now.

PM - That is really interesting to know. I sometimes feel that even despite showing tired signs and starting to be crabby that Ronan still has another 10-15 minutes in him or he will protest all the more at going down for a nap. I think I will be a bit more mindful of that and trust my instincts there a little more, thank you!

PS: It's 5:30am and I just finished feeding Ronan for the first time since he went down last night! Hopefully he has a few more hours sleep in him now, because I could sure use it.

 

[polaris]

Thanks girls.
He settled perfectly for his afternoon nap so I really have no idea what was going on with him. His top tooth seems to be through (he won't really let me touch it and the gum is still quite swollen) so maybe it was that? PM - I'm not sure about the awake time, he seemed very tired and if anything I was trying to stretch him to 9 a.m. (up at 6.45 so only just over two hours awake time but he was yawning and eye rubbing). I was kind of hoping to keep him on a consistent nap schedule of 9 and 1 for the time being as it was working well for us. But isn't it always the way that just as you find something that works, baby's needs change and you have to change it again, LOL!

Hivechild - yay for sleeping until 5.30! Hope he settled back down for you for an hour or two after his feed.

 

[PieMistress]

Polaris - I had also read somewhere that separation anxiety can affect naps much more than bedtimes (so many things to consider!!)

Hive - here is a useful link to average awake times base on age (along with lots of other useful articles)

https://blogginaboutbabies.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/infant-schedules/

x

 

[megewansmum]

Polaris - I seem to be missing some posts. Did you have difficulty getting Thomas down for his morning nap yesterday? It sounds like he is suffering with the same things as Megan at the moment. I think it must be an age thing as they are only 2 days apart. Hopefully just another phase to get through.

Have you tried putting him down later for the morning nap? Megan wakes at 6am regularly now and I start her routine at 9am so she's in the crib for 9.10/9.15ish. Morning naps never seem to be an issue. 2 hours seems a very short time for him at nearly 9 months. I'm having difficulty with the afternoon naps more but yesterday she went down like an angel for both and wasn't fussy all day.

I had heard that babies have great memories and remember what time they have been tired previously and start rubbing eyes, yawning etc when really they can stay awake for longer. Kind of like habit.

Fingers crossed this unsettled phase is over soon for us both if that is what it is

 

[megewansmum]

Hello...

Had a really weird day yesterday. Megan woke at normal time of 6.00am and went down for her morning nap as normal. Then she woke after 45 mins. She hasn't done that for so long with her morning nap. A couple of days before she did it with her afternoon nap too. Anyway I left her for a while but she wouldn't resettle so I got her up. Didn't know whether to stick to normal afternoon nap time or put her down early but in the end I just went with the flow. Normal nap time came, after being up for 4 hours and she still didn't seem tired or fussy but I put her down anyway. She didn't fuss just went straight to sleep for 2 hours! When she got up she was happy. This morning she slept in til 6.30am

Anyway, its been said before but just when you think yeh...the routines working the whole thing changes. It would be so much easier if my little angel came with an instruction manual

Hope you all had good nights

 

[megewansmum]

Hi again...

Do you think that it would be worthwhile to people if I asked the administrator if she could put Pam Nease's (Sleepsense Consultant) details as a sticky? It would be great to get the message out there about Sleepsense and the fact that there is a solution to sleep problems.

Honestly I would've been so grateful if I had read somewhere about her sooner and started Sleepsense earlier. I just didn't know about it or her until we had suffered 5-10 NW's every single night for 5.5 months and either no naps or very short naps for the same amount of time. It was so bad that it was affecting my relationship with my DH and ruining my enjoyment of DD. Thanks to her our lives are completely different now. Honestly I don't think I could've done it without her.

I had tried Baby Whisperer techniques for so long without success and posted it on the Baby Whisperer forum. It was under "I can recommend a sleep consultant" and it had so much response. People contacted her and were really pleased with her but the older members of the forum didn't like anything that wasn't BW and started to add sarcastic comments. In the end they locked the post and moved it to some obscure place in product recommendations, where I would never think to look for sleep advice. People still send me personal e-mails requesting information. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what method is used, whether it be Baby Whisperer or Sleepsense all that matters is a happy, healthy, content baby and mummy and whatever works to acheive that is all that matters.

I just thought it might help someone who really needs that extra bit of guidance and has more questions than the book can answer.

 

[polaris]

Polaris - I had also read somewhere that separation anxiety can affect naps much more than bedtimes (so many things to consider!!)


x

I had wondered about that too especially because he turned himself around each time to face the door - as if he was looking for me.

Anyway he settled perfectly for both naps today and I didn't do anything different at all. I'm putting it down to teeth as his top tooth is through now and the swelling of the gum has gone right down - and he just seems a generally happier baby.

 

[polaris]

Hello...

Had a really weird day yesterday. Megan woke at normal time of 6.00am and went down for her morning nap as normal. Then she woke after 45 mins. She hasn't done that for so long with her morning nap. A couple of days before she did it with her afternoon nap too. Anyway I left her for a while but she wouldn't resettle so I got her up. Didn't know whether to stick to normal afternoon nap time or put her down early but in the end I just went with the flow. Normal nap time came, after being up for 4 hours and she still didn't seem tired or fussy but I put her down anyway. She didn't fuss just went straight to sleep for 2 hours! When she got up she was happy. This morning she slept in til 6.30am

Anyway, its been said before but just when you think yeh...the routines working the whole thing changes. It would be so much easier if my little angel came with an instruction manual

Isn't that the truth? They like to keep us on our toes to stop us from getting bored!

I guess the morning nap will eventually start to get shorter as they drop it altogether by about a year and a half don't they? I also find that Thomas is pretty flexible about awake times now and can easily stay up until normal nap time even if he has a short nap. When he was younger even five minutes extra could tip him into over-tired.

Don't know about your suggestion about Pam Nease, I'm not sure whether or not admin would go for it as it could be seen as advertising for her?

 

[Cattia]

Hey ladies!
Just trying to catch up with all your progress. Megewansmum, so glad to hear that SS is working for you and Megan is figuring out sleep. Hope it continues to go well for you.

Polaris - has Thomas settled down now? Could have been the tooth. The separation anxiety thing is interesting too, I think Abigail is just starting up with this now, as when she is tired she screams when I leave the room, which she never used to do. I can see how this could affect naps too.

PM - how are the night wakings going? Have you managed to get down to just one feed? Hope it is going well.

Hive - sorry you have had a rough time, but sounds as though Ronan is settling down. When we went away I was surprised at how well Abigail adapted,so you will probably find you don't have too many problems with Ronan's routine.

Well - we had some REAL progress! Now that I am on holiday I decided it is really time to crack the sleeping thing. For the past four nights, I have worked on re-settling Abigail of she wakes before 4am. It has been tough as she keeps waking at 3am, then I basically spend an hour going in and out to her until I feed her at 4am, which was starting to feel a bit pointless, so I was on the verge of giving up. Then the night before last, I went to re-settle her about 2.30, and I spent agaes standing by her cot, stroking her back, but she was still crying, so I decided to sit in the chair in her room, and every time she started crying I just said 'sleep time Abigail, night night'. I didn't look at her, but she knew I was there. After about 25 minutes of less and less crying, she went to sleep, then woke up at 6am! No feed! So last night, DH settled her at 1am, which took about one minute, he just turned her on her side and she went back to sleep. She then woke up a couple of times around 2 - 3am, but she was asleep again in minutes, I didn't even have to go in to her - then she woke at a few minutes before 6am for her first feed!

Now I know she can go through with no feed, but it is going to be the real test now - will she do it again, and will I be strong enough to stick to my guns? I hope so, as I think it is worth the re-settling, becasue she seems to be starting to get the message. I am so proud of her, even if she doesn't do it again for ages,at least I know she CAN, so I feel much more confident about dropping the night feed now. She has been a grouch for a couple of days, and today I can just see the first tooth poking through, a tiny white semi circle.

 

[cutie4evr01]

Yay Cattia that is terrific about Abigail making it through without feeding for 2 nights in a row!!! Here's hoping she can keep it up!

Well we have been on vacation for a couple nights and so far sleeping is going horribly. She's been waking earlier to feed (midnight instead of 2 or 3 as usual), and then waking at 4 or 4:30 and not going back to sleep. Then she takes 2-3 naps in the day that last about 30 minutes each, all of which have huge screaming fits before falling asleep. I know it's new surroundings and she's sleeping in her travel crib which is not as comfortable as her crib, and the rooms are more light than she's used to, but it's really worse than we expected. She's getting about 9-11 hours of sleep in 24 hours for the past couple days, so needless to say she's crabby often. I feel so awful because she no longer will fall asleep nursing, she won't sleep being rocked, she won't fall asleep on us, she won't sleep in her carseat, so I feel like we don't even have a backup option to use even if wanted to forgo sleepsense to get her to sleep by any means necessary. This morning after she woke at 4 and we tried to resettle her until 7 with no luck, we ended up taking her out for a long walk and she slept in the baby bjorn for about an hour. So I guess that's our backup option for now. On top of the poor sleep, we are staying with a couple of friends who have an 11-month old baby, so I feel like we can't let her scream too long at 4am or she will wake up the other baby, so we have to pick her up and I feel like we are un-doing all our hard work. We will be here through Saturday, so I'm hoping and praying her sleep with get better or we will have a major grouch on our hands when we get home!